All free will is, is the ability to choose. We're not literally controlled by someone/something "making" us do anything. It still boils down to our own decision to be obedient or not.

And the reason we must accept him as lord and saviour and accept his sacrifice he made for us is because of our sin. Sin separates us from our father. Therefore Jesus has given us a way to be pure as snow through him, giving us the chance to receive the gift of heaven and not be separate from our father.

then isn't "Free Will" the ability to choose due to fear?

lol, does this merry-go-round ever stop?


Fear is also a free will choice.

Hey, can you ask this same question about 7 more times???

NOW NOW - Here I've been trying to get people to understand that the beliefs they hold are not largely in confomity with others.

Although many insist on speaking for the groups at large "We believe" or "We don't" or "We are" - the truth is there is no overall consenses and no generalizations that can truly fit into a category called 'The Christian View'.

It's really better that way for everyone, because more people feel free to "design" their own beliefs.

In fact, it makes sense that way because most biblical writings are pretty open to evaluation through individial perception.

That's a good thing to endorse because the theocratic state is not something that has historically produded good results.

Here's to the INDIVIDUAL freedom to persue religous beliefs with all the diversity of individual perspective.

FOR JA1379 I can tell you have been born again becuase you are NAKED in your pic-------put on a shirt before you take the pulpit, we dont want to confirm any well known myths about the church.

The only thing to fear is fear itself. People fear things they do not understand. Christians follow the faith not out of fear, but out of love and obedience to our father.

Homo sapiens existed for over 90,000 years without any formal knowledge of the god of Abraham. At some point after that, populations of people began to settle together because the larger communal setting provided a more stable support system.

As mobility between geographic locations increased so did populations and a diversity of culturals within a population could cause conflict and civil unrest.

This was when true utility of religious beliefs was discovered - what a great way to influence civility and maintain a more orderly society.

History seems to indicate that rulers who created a belief system and tried to enforce adherance to its codes, has limited success on any level.

However, rulers learned from history and began to incorporate various elements of the most popular belief systems that already existed in the population in order to get as many people on board as possible. In this way rulers could influence the behavior of the masses through their 'chosen' beliefs.

Of couse people didn't really 'choose' all those beliefs but after a genereation of two, no really remembered anything different.

Rulers loved rites and rituals, especially public events that the state could back. These events reinforced the belief structure.

At any rate, in about the last 5,000 years several major world religions developed. The complexity of these religions is without precident considering that for 90,0000 years we knew nothing about religion.

Now, we have books that are so complex that you have to go to a designated place of education - church, temple, synogogue, etc to learn what to believe.

Now, we have universities that focus of religious studies - like what is there to learn?

Let people believe as they will, I say encourage people (try gain access) to those designated places of learning and ask questions. And then access all the inforamtion you can about other world views pertaining to religion -----

AND THEN, make an informed decision of where to place your values and adjust your behavor to reflect the values you have chosen.

But I NEVER suggest visiting any one of those places of education, seeking a belief system to adopt.

And I whole heartedly suggest that people take credit and responsibility for every value they have chosen to represent with their behavior.

A personal belief system is a unique quality - and as such a personal belief system should be credited where credit is due - to the person who developed it. That means making sure that every claim that's made includes the personal citation of

"This is what I believe"

and stop trying to attribute personal beliefs to others which tends to limit your liability and your responsibilty for your own actions.

There is no single Christian view so there is no point to making blanket statements and generalizing Christian beliefs to a community of more than one (self).

Here's the thing - when people adopt 'LAWS' that enforce obedience they may or may not be represented in an individuals personal set of values.

This is why civil law is so often disobeyed, because no civil law will ever represent the true values of all people who live under its control.

The fact that there is 'LAW' within any religious view means that there is enforcement (as in forced) adherence to that law.

Enforcement of the law means that some kind of retribution is required by those who break the law.

Most Christian views include a punishment for breaking the law or not adhering to it, which would seem to be far worse than any individual punishment that civil societies enforce today.

So once the belief system has been adopted, there is a set of ‘laws’ that dictate the behavior of its adherents. OF COURSE not all those laws will be followed – they simply don’t align with individually held values.

Not even a god that people believe in can dictate the values that people should hold.

I don’t think it’s really all that difficult to understand that concept, so it really becomes difficult to think a god could not.

That’s why I think that freedom to choose a religious perspective means freedom to define personal values without fear of retribution from the source of its inspiration.

I actually agree with you wholeheartedly Di.

I LOVE Designer Christianity.

It's the greatest thing that ever happened to the religion and It's truly encouraging to see such a huge movement in that direction. I read a survey once and I wish I would have kept the link to it, but I didn't. Anyway, it was a survey about the fastest growing religions today, and "Designer Christianity" is without a doubt the very fastest growing religion of all.

This doesn't mean that new people are becoming Christians, but rather conventional Christians are "converting" in droves to become "Designer Christians", although they may not even be aware of their actions.

The survey was done by asking the people who chose "Christianity" as their religion, further questions, like, "Do you go to church", do you follow a specific denomination, etc.

What the survey discovered was that most people who choose "Christian" to label their religion, also reveal that they do not affiliate with any particular organized form of it and they prefer a "personal walk with Jesus". They also approve of the term "Chrucianity", and reject much of organized religion.

So Designer Christianity is without a doubt the new age rave. And this is great, it's becoming more like Wicca in this sense. (i.e. less dogmatic and more open to personal interpretation)

However, this great movement also creates extremism in the form of "Paper Popes". Fortunately every Designer Christian does not become a "Paper Pope". In fact that's actually quite rare. Most Designer Christians just want to have a personal walk with Jesus and aren't interested in pushing their personal walk with Jesus onto anyone else.

However, the Designer Christians who have become Paper Popes are taking their interpretations of the original dogma and attempting to claim that their interpretations are the "Gospel Truth".

In other words, they are re-designing Christianity alright, but rather than just that as a "Personal walk with Jesus" they decide to use it as a foundation for a whole new brand of strict fundamentalism. They basically start preaching, "God is like THIS, and Jesus MEANT this, etc, etc, etc,"

Like the Paper Popes we frequently see on these forums. It's seems like there is always at least one who is acting like the King Honcho of Christianity who speaks for God, Jesus, and all other Christians.

Any attempt at offering any interpretations that disagree with the opinions of the "Paper Pope" are clearly false and must be rejected as not having been officially sanctioned by the Paper Pope.

THAT form of "Designer Christianity" is not pretty at all, on the contrary it's quite ugly actually.

This is just an example of how something truly great, like Designer Christianity, can simultaneously be used in very negative and repulsive ways as well.

But very thankfully, even the vast majority of Designer Christians roll their eyes at the Paper Popes, it was precisely that kind of rigid dogmatic "Chruchianity" that they are rejecting in the first place. So most Designer Christians see the Paper Popes to be just as disgusting as the original form of the religion that they have just rejected.

By the way, Designer Christianity was the inevitable destiny of Protestantism. Protestantism is fundamentally based on the idea of protesting against any having any one person or organization such as the Catholic Pope interpret and decide for everyone else what the Bible means. That's what Protestantism "protested" against.

So the natural destiny of Protestantism is to become "Designer Christianity" where each individual reads the scriptures and comes to There Own Conclusions.

And as ironic as this may sound this should indeed include the ALL CONCLUSIONS. In other words, if I read the biblical scripture and conclude that the Old Testament is entirely fable, Jesus was a Buddhist, and the New Testament is totally misunderstood rumors and hearsay superstition about who Jesus was, then this is My Conclusion of what these texts mean to me.

Therefore I, too, can lay claim to being the Perfect Protestant since I took Protestantism seriously and freely came to my own conclusions of what I believe these texts are all about.

I've done nothing more than take Protestantism to it's natural conclusion.

Truly.

I was born again when I finally released the shackles of man made religions.

As to the other discussion happening, it is very annoying to have someone claim to be the sole word and logic of anything. Noone perceives anything exactly the same as others.

sure Peter_Pan...as long as it will keep you from flaming

quite ironic, how the truest lovers of humans and humankind, shall love true "divinity" as "god" and his "angels", whom descend and CREATE THE ABOLISHMENT OF ALL RELIGIONS FROM EARTH, for none shall hate divinity more than the religious, lol...

just as was always written in human history...

wonder what the bible thumpers whom but thump to and fro swaggering about how THEMSELF be of god, shall thump against what they have no human power against, lol...

what be "born again", or freed from the human motive and natural inclination, but to seek but MOST for "itself"?

would not that be freed from seeking ETERNAL LIFE FOR SELF?

hum...

seeking ETERNAL LIFE FOR SELF, certainly does not seem to be the shedding of the "serpent motive", or the "self motive" of "self inrterest" as surpeme?

hum...

how is this mentality not the foulest of greedy, even willing other fellow man should suffer, if it perpetrate """self""" GETTING "GOODIES FOR SELF"?

hum...

you got to be kidding me...

lol...

and this is propogated as "divine love", flowing forth from a human, that personally know some "divine love"?

hehehehehe......

this mentality seems to fit more with a narcissistic mentality, that it cannot be missed, all religions are so effective at creating.

of course, religion makes any mortal STARE AT ITSELF.

seems this mentality does indeed serve it's OWN "god", itself.

it would appear this mentality believed to of 'divine love', but be born again unto even more self greed, but portraying such as divine motive...

ah yes, it would seem it was written, that many stand upon hilltops, and demand they KNOW THEY WAY, but it was said not to follow THESE, and that these were anti-christ, or against true love?

hum...

something smells fishy in here...

more like rotten eggs i think, lol...

no wonder it said what "ate of the book" for its own "self motive", was accursed, lol...

no wonder it said these that ate of the "tree of knowledge of WHO was good or evil", were cursed to be seperated from love, or from the tree of life, lol...

how can it be missed, all this mentality did, was eat of or take a belief, to prove itself NOT DAMNED, NOT UNWORTHY, NOT INFERIOR, so indeed, any belief for this reason, no matter where it comes from, HATH NO CHOICE BUT TO CREATE A SELF AS KNOWS GOD MORE, OR SELF AS SUPREME...

lol...

innocent motive indeed, a long time ago, when the "belief" was first taken, to make self feel BETTER ABOUT "ITSELF"...

for what could even take a "belief", lest it felt BAD ABOUT ITSELF...

nothing...

so, it was for "inferiorty feelings" in the begnning,

but even a child molester molest because it feels too INFERIOR, to have normal sexual relations, with a competent adult.

does not make it ok...

for the inseurity created harm unto other's, and until such is admitted, there can be no reformation.

so, in reality, in a beginning, a long time ago, when self was born, and felt inferior to many other's it seen, it heard many things and teachings of how to make "ITSELF" NOT FEEL INFERIOR...

does not mean the BELIEF WAS "GOOD".

if one actually knew some 'divinity', whom was declared to be "unconditional love", how could itself still feel inferior, and so still need a belief to "cover" itself, as the fig leaves leaves humans create with their religions?

it would seem any belief declared at all, indeed doth more prove nothing be "born again" of "divine love", lol...

just one cent

i understand your point and you are right even though i know you are being sarcastic, i agree with you. im going to change this picture, it was the only one i had on my computer that was large enough. but im not in the pulpit though, just speaking the truth every opportunity i get.

what's not to understand ...God made it pretty clear....if you don't believe in him he will toss your apse into Hell to burn for all eternity ...

why would anyone follow someone that just threaten them...they do so out of fear ...this is not "Free WIll" ...it's "Fear Will"

"Fear Will" takes away choice

obviously it doesn't, you've chosen to use your free will not to believe. So therefore we do have free will. Again, we don't worship our of fear. Burning in the lake of fire has nothing to do with what causes people to worship and praise our father. We worship and praise him through love, not fear. We do it to uplift his name and praise him in all his glory. We don't worship him because we "have" to and to save ourselves from eternal damnation.

Jeez another contradiction

you don't worship him because you "have" to

but you worship him to save yourself from eternal damnation

which means you clearly worship God out of Fear

How in ANY way did you get that from what I said? I said we DON'T worship him out of fear and because we have to as to save ourselves from eternal damnation. And when you quote someone, don't edit the posting. QUOTE THE ENTIRE POST.

AGAIN after AGAIN, we worship our father through love. We uplift his name in all his great glory. We praise him for EVERYTHING he has done for everyone. Nothing to do with any form of fear.

Cowboy in case you don't realize it...saving yourself from eternal damnation mean you have a fear of being damn eternally

I can not save myself from eternal damnation, I have no power over that. So again there is no fear, for there's nothing I could do or not do to guarantee salvation from eternal damnation.