Ah, but, to me, there is an intrinsic connection between being domesticated and giving up one's intellect. It's the sublimation of one's individuality so as to better fit in with the "norm," the expectation -- Nietzsche's "good European," the "herd animal."

I suppose one could make the argument that it isn't really a diminution of intellect so much as it is a refocusing -- I wouldn't buy that argument, of course, since it necessitates diverting the creative process into a sort of "procreative" process, which is less intellectual simply because it relies on biology rather than thought.

In other words, in my experience, there is more intellect involved in writing a book or writing a song than there is in eating a sandwich or going to the bathroom.

And the new IQ test will be which women can watch the entire movie -- Forrest Gump

Well, this is how it's always been presented to me.

I think, on some level, it's a sort of equivalent, albeit a bit more (?) 1950s. Either way, we're talking about a sort of tacit expectation which some of us just don't have pre-installed in our brains.

"Taffeta, high heels, and a vacuum" speaks to me of an antiquated mindset, someone who was looking for a woman to fill a role that's no more relevant to today than is a stegosaurus.

But it's the "expectation mindset" that's the killer -- the idea that "This is how we do things because this is how our parents did things, and their parents, and their parents and so on and so on...." in which case we should all still be living in trees and picking bugs off each other.

why I ask that is because you seem to want that by not seeming to see that another reality is possible.

Why are we responsible to prove anything to you? That I do not understand. This game of "prove me I'm wrong, but it can't be right if I haven't experienced it" seems like a pointless "dog chasing it's tail". And, an evasion. jmho as I reaize that I may not completely understand all of what u r saying.

But you do not seem pointless, Lex -just exasperated. I hope someone will come along and show you that good long term relationships are possible. They are Lex, but it takes 2. When they don't work, there's usually a little fault on both sides - sometimes not, true. But usually.

In my family divorce is very rare, and what I have grown up learning in that atmosphere is shared responsiblity. I prove my own truths and ask no one else to shoulder that responsiblity for me jmho - best of luck to you on your journey. I am sure I am not he only one anxiously awaiting a chance to read your works~

as a woman who was a FT mother and wife for 17 years, there are parts of what u say that r truly offensive. Being domesticated has little to do with one's intelligence - as I am also a professinal expereinced in such measurements. Being domesticated was evolutionary as intelligent change made by man because it makes good sense. As a "domestic" engineer I had far more opprtunities to use my creativity and intelligence than I do now in the professinal work place. quite honestly. To live domestically well requires intelligence indeed.

Anything that has a non-zero possibility and remains within the laws of physics is possible. I readily acknowledge that.

This situation is a little different, though, as it doesn't involve arcane calculations of something like the odds of all of the air molecules in a room suddenly and simultaneously moving to the north side of that room -- which is not ruled out by any known laws of physics. It's just extremely unlikely, and you might have to wait a few trillion years to see it happen.

The delimiter here, though, is that for me to see another possible reality in THIS situation, it would require some interaction with another person. As I have very little experience interacting with anyone who would represent any sort of other "reality," as you describe it, it is difficult (not impossible) for me to imagine such an event.



You're not. I'm just saying that if you think I'm wrong, tell me why you think so. I could very well be wrong. It's just that all of the people who seem to feel the need to tell me so, also seem to be able to come up with nothing better than cliches, platitudes, and plagiarized drivel to toss at me.

I don't have any expectations here.



You don't. I've already addressed the "my experience" thing. I've never said "it can't be right if I haven't experienced it." I said "If I haven't experienced it, I haven't experienced it, therefore I have no knowledge of it." Two entirely different things.

What I'm saying is that 50 people all typing "I'm not like that!" doesn't constitute proof of anything, either way, other than that they can type and are susceptible to reflexive responding.



No doubt. I'm certainly not the easiest person to live with.



But shouldn't the shared responsibility begin from a framework of knowing what the other person's expectations for the relationship (truthfully) are? This is where my problem lies.

You are, of course, free to make the choice to be offended.



We will have to agree to disagree here. I think there is an inherent danger with ALLOWING oneself to be domesticated in certain situations. But it goes back to priorities. And it seems that most people feel reproducing is more important than being intelligent or creative. That's certainly their right, God bless 'em, and I don't want to interfere with that. But I will never understand it and I want no part of it.



We have differing perspectives here. You may be at one end of the domestication spectrum, granted, but Jerry Springer seems to be at the other.

I'm not saying domestication is bad for everyone -- clearly, there are people who cannot function outside of an adjunct mindset/existence. That's fine. For them. Not for me. All I'm saying is it would be nice to find someone else who thought outside this particular box. But this box is very big and no one seems interested in leaving it.

ok, for the record, (if anyone cares), when I say I like a smart man, what Im referring to is someone who is a multi-faceted as me..I am a smart woman and I dont hide it..if you cant hold a conversation with me at my level then, sorry, Im not going to bother with you..

if you cant do that..then Im going to look at what other "assets" you may possess..bad boy dumb, isnt so bad for a few entertaining nights...

so after reading everything a woman wants a street smart man thats a rough boy who can carry on an intelligent conversation...so the man himself doesn't have to be intelligent...hmm i wonder what exactly a intelligent conversation is?

"What should we name the kids?"

Oh no. I thought those mosquitos were destroyed when Planet Melmac blew up.

I do not choose whether or not I am offended. that somehow makes me responsible for your offending statements which is ridiculous. I also have no more time nor energy for someone who offends and is too arrogant to apologize whether or not the offense was intended (and I doubt it was). Quite honestly, you strike me as being immature and a little arrogant, after reading all of ur explanations. But that's prolly cuz I am so much older than u r - so to me u r immature...(not meant as a criticism but often the way things are perceived are a matter of age- youth. I might have agreed with you completely when I was, say, 20)

It is quite possible to live & think outside of the box in a domestic situation. I daresay unless you are living under a bridge in a sleeping bag, u r to some degree domesticated. And if u r under a bridge in a sleeping bag I would prefer you be here. that would NOT be a way to let a friend live is the way my small, boxy domesticated brain thinks.

"I beat up this dude cause he tried to sell me crappy weed"?

No, they went to a planet called Xavla and drank all the water. A tragedy, really....

The alternative is to give up control of your own feelings, emotions, and reactions to other people. Somehow that strikes me as MUCH more ridiculous.

You can only be offended by someone's opinion if you allow yourself to be.



I have nothing to apologize for. I expressed my opinion, attempted to do so with some humor and clarity (which most people seem to have grasped), and had no intention of offending anyone. I realize that some people are more sensitive than others, more prone to taking offense, but that is not my problem.



Whatever. I'm mature enough not to take offense at what is obviously nothing more than a slam. You're entitled to your opinion. I suppose that's the difference between us.



Age and maturity are not necessarily an automatic match....! (You should have met my ex-mother-in-law!)



Again, I'm not saying domestication is bad -- and when you get down to the menial, day-to-day things like laundry and picking up the avocados off the floor, yeah, I do that stuff. That's not really what I'm referring to, though, when I get into "domestication" as a subject -- I'm talking more about someone (many someones, in fact) attempting to impose a value system on me that I simply cannot comprehend at all.

Now THAT offends me. And, yes, I chose to be offended.

Oh. That explains why the value of my beach-front property on Xavla cratered.

Trust me, there is NO more beach front property on Xavla! Or much of anything else! Except something that looks like a horse standing in black grass....

(This is an inside joke for the people who have read my books!)

you guys kill me

Alright, I'll address the actual topic of this thread.

Let me see if I have things straight. The complaint men have is that, when a woman says she's looking for an intelligent man, there is something else she wants in a man, and she isn't saying what it is. The men complain because they consider themselves to be intelligent, and yet they can't get a date with a woman who claims to be looking for an intelligent man.

This is what I have observed: Men and women are alike in that they don't openly declare everything that they want in a significant other. Men and women can see this trait in others, but they can't see that they have it, too.

Regardless of gender, a person wants a significant other who will fit into or enhance the kind of lifestyle that the person wants.
To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin Pierce, M.D. ("Hawkeye" to his friends), men and women alike look for custom-tailored mates in an off-the-rack world.