First – it was the OLD Covenant that was about asking for forgiveness - and there were more than 600 LAWS that demanded the proper way to do this. This is the Law you say is no longer necessary.

Jesus was the final blood sacrifice – you don’t even have to believe it to make it so. THAT IS the fulfillment of prophecy – “A Savior for ALL people”. Asking for forgiveness every day, or week, or month is no longer necessary... there’s no reason to ask why: You gave the answer.



Supposedly Christians will do good works and keep the first four of the Ten Commandments simply because faith in Jesus allows the Holy Spirit to guide that person to do so.

The most faithful and most repentant person in the world may not find salvation - because it is not faith or repentance that Jesus died for, Jesus died to FREE men of having to be obsessed with atoning for sin.

Instead, people will face ONE judgement day - and on that day it will not be faith or repentance or sacrifices to God that will deem a person worthy of eternal live. Not even a belief in God will be focused on, but only the works of the person will be counted because Jesus already made the final blood atonement for all sin.

That leaves only the works of men left to be judged.

Sins were paid for through the final blood sacrifice - because man is not good and all the faith in the world cannot make a man less sinful – therefore, if a man repents and offers to do good works as atonement for sins committed - the good works mean NOTHING.

Works that are beneficial to others MUST be altruistically preformed. To perform works as atonement for sin has a SELF-SERVING purpose (atonement) so it is a sacrificial action of penitence.

What separates the Jews from the Christians is that the Jews believed that a Savior would come and deliver them from the hands of their oppressors – the gentiles. But according to Christians, the Jews misinterpreted prophecy because they expected a Savior who would deliver the Jews 'exclusively' from their oppressors. But Christians say the oppressor was human nature, the fact that man is not good, and would always be oppressed with sin as it conflicted with God’s will.

So the fulfillment of prophecy was to take the oppressive burden of sin from ALL people and that was the purpose of the final blood sacrifice – it freed men to do good works out of love and not as atonement for sin and not because it was directed by God under penalty of judgment.

NOW, there is only ‘works’ to be judged and because only God can know a mans heart, only God can judge if the works were ‘good’.

This is why it doesn’t matter if a person believes in God, or in Jesus or in any other universal power or none at all, as only good works will matter in the end.

To say otherwise, such as


Is to believe as the Jews believed – that Jesus’ purpose was to grant salvation ‘exclusively’ to the Chosen, its just that the Chosen decided they were the only ones who recognized who Jesus was, and they became the Christians.

So, not only do Jews continue to be the object of longstanding anti-Semitism, under Christian discrimination, for not accepting Jesus as the exclusive Savior they expected, but Christians now try to say that Jesus purpose was to provide exclusive salvation to believers. There is no logic that – it is fundamentally wrong and off-hand self-justifications of Christian individuals do not make for ‘good’ works.

It seems each of the major religions believes they are persecuted but will persecute others in the name of their faith with no problem.

Hypocrites.

Who are you talking to?

Are you not aware that people die of starvation everyday on planet Earth?

This isn't about me. I'm not seeking 'salvation' or a ticket into Disneyland.

You've got to look at the whole world over.

The picture you paint of a God is an extremely limited picture of a God who rejects everyone who doesn't buy into the religion you bought into.

So your God would reject all Buddhists, for example.

That's not LOVE, and has nothing at all to do with love.

Such a God would be an extreme egotistical pig.

These religions that are based on jealous egotistical Gods truly need to go. They clearly don't have any divinity to them at all.

All these religions do is serve to bolster the egos of the people who buy into them and create religious bigotry and prejudices that are totally uncalled for.

All you're basically doing is going around preaching that anyone who refuses to embrace Christianity is a heathen who will be rejected by God. You're just perpetuating a hateful dogma. The religion should be outlawed as a "Hate Crime", IMHO.

Truly.

No – not exactly. Many Christians have difficulty understanding what ‘works’ means. They are all caught up in judging sin and sinful actions. They are all about the negative and that’s the mentality of the Old Covenant. To make the Bible flow and Christian doctrine more consistent, the negative has to be eliminated. That was the fulfillment of prophecy, to free mankind of the oppressive burden of sin – for which they have no control. Jesus, was quoted by several as saying that no man is good, all men are sinful, only God is good. Jesus purpose was to create a more even playing field through his final blood sacrifice absolving mankind of sins they cannot avoid.

So what are good works? These are named many times throughout scripture, feeding the hungry, being a good host, forgiving the trespasses of others against you, obeying the laws of governance, caring for the ill and decrepit, sharing to the point of your own poverty. Good works are not done in the name of self-righteousness, not for atonement of sin, and not even out of any sense of duty to God. Good works may not even be recognized by the doers as good works because the action of doing ‘good’ is an altruistic, empathetic response to a need.

By works alone will men be judged – no man comes to the Father through faith alone.

Christian doctrine that proclaims the final judgment will be a balancing act of sin vs. good works is inconsistent with scripture. The saving grace was that every individual faces final judgment on the basis of good works alone.

For those Christians who need to feel their faith and belief should be of some benefit – or give an advantage to Christians over non-Christians, well, they sort of have one. By your own account the faithful have an advantage



The problem is so although you say “God will guide you every time” No man is good, all men are sinful, which means no man will follow God’s guidance every time.

Therefore

Matthew 4


The story told here is of Jesus and his temptations in the dessert. So when I read Matt 4:10 it is Jesus talking to the ‘tempter’ whom we assume is Satan.

It is generally believed that Satan is a fallen Angel. Angels are not human, they are not subject to either the Old or New Covenant. So when Jesus says to Satan “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve” he is reminding Satan, that he serves only God – even as the tempter he serves God’s purpose.

Hence, Satan is put in his place as a fallen Angel who has no choice but to serve the Lord. And so Satan goes away-defeated. In essence Satan is not sinful – he can’t be, because even in his role as Tempter he is doing God’s bidding.

That does not hold true for humans – at least not according to Christians, otherwise there would be no need for Jesus because no man could be sinful if all they were doing was God’s bidding in the first place.

Luke 4:8 is the same story so we reach the same conclusion.

Matthew 6: 1-34
This was a poor choice to use after all that I have explained.

Jesus was teaching his disciples what it means to do ‘good works’. He is also explaining how their faith serves to benefit them over the gentiles. When giving, or fasting, or on their travels….. they should not think about what they will eat or when, or what clothes they will have – because they know what Gentiles don’t – through their faith they know that God will provide.

Now- when we get to the verse you have supplied we find Jesus talking about greed:



The two masters involved are ‘self-greed’ and God. What does that have to do with the conversation at hand?

I have responded (actually refuted) the verses supplied - but you have given no consideration to the ones I have provided. Why?

I know what the Ten Commandments are - can you tell me which ones are God's First Law and which ones are Mosaic Law and why they came into being at two different times?

Actually, I would find this quite interesting. It would be a great opportunity to enter into some in depth philisophical discussions. You know you can do that with kids becasue their logic has not yet been tarnished with a lot of garbarge. The are not jaded by misinformation or a lot of illogical beliefs that people hold.

In fact my own son, used to come up with really off-the-wall proclamations, just to see where I would go with them. He tells me, now, that he did that on purpose - at first to see if he could get a rise out me and then later he did it becasue he enjoyed the good philisophical discussions we would have.

He even got some his buddies in on the action - today one of them is a minister, he was always a great kid and I'm sure he and my son will fill their adult roles just as well.

What i posted wasn't the 10 commandments as everyone knows it. The list of commandments is in the old testament. And since the old testament was fulfilled and holds no more power, people were being arrogant and saying that would mean the 10 commandments were void as well, so i put this here to reveal that is not true, for the laws Jesus taught us of was the same laws in the 10 commandments.

So you would be able to sit there and talk in a calm and gentle voice while your daughter just screamed at the top of her lungs right in your face that you wasn't her mom? No matter what you did for her, no matter what help you helped her with, she did nothing but absolutely disown you and treat you like crap.

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philisophical discussions
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This would not happen though, because your daughter wouldn't listen to what you're saying, there would be no "discussion". She would just flat out ignore EVERYTHING you had to say. And everything you said she would reply with "I don't care, you're lieing anyways".

Saw this quote the other day, and I think it sums it up:


If we are not going to allow mosques near the World Trade Center because it was a religious attack, then shouldn't we make sure that all the Christian churches are destroyed in Oklahoma City? It too was a religious based attack carried out by an extremist.

This is true. The story of Job also implies that Satan is doing the bidding of God and must always ask for God's permission before he can do anything.

I'm not sure why they even refer to Satan as a "fallen angel". Based on the Biblical stories, Satan is one of the most obedient and devoted angels that God has. There is clearly no 'war' between God and Satan according to the stories in the Bible. Satan is doing precisely as God asks. He's a devoted servant. He's like God's devoted "Hit Man".

The Biblical mythology is quite complex and interesting, but in truth, it really isn't all that much different from Greek Mythology. It's the same basic themes with just different characters.

As creation myths go, there are some really nice one out there. I really like some of the Pixie myths, or Faery myths. There are also various Eastern Mystical myths that are quite attractive and romantic.

These Mediterranean myths reflect a lot of the mindset of the Mediterranean cultures, and I'm not attracted to the way those people think to be quite honest about it. I like the way that Asians think far better. They seem to think more abstractly and less egotistically. I also like the Faery lore of Wales, and some of the witches tales. They are more whimsical, but they are also often more loving in general and less egotistical.

Not to say that none of their stories aren't gruesome, but at least they never went overboard and fell into the deep and endless rut of sin and salvation. That's basically the entire focal point of the Abrahamic religions. To the point where the concepts of sin and salvation have totally eclipsed all other concepts. I mean let's face it, the religion culminates with Jesus being crucified to pay for the salvation of mankind. That's a religion that is totally obsessed with the concept of sin and salvation to the point where they've totally lost touch with all other concepts of humanity. It's so obsessive in terms of sin and salvation that it can hardly even be said to be a healthy religion. It's just lost touch with all that is sane and good. It went off the deep end of negativity.

One thing about the Eastern Mystics is that they have fully recognized the importance of balance and harmony which tend to keep their religions on an even keel.

YES - in fact my son had a couple temper tantrums in his life. When he was 3 I stood over him, with a sort of dumbfounded look on my face as he proceeded to proclaim all out war with his emotions and his desires, laying, screaming, kicking, and pounding the floor. The family that was present sat there watching me in disbelief as I waited out the storm.

When he finally looked up at me, I quietly said "Arthur, you're doing it wrong - let me show how" and I procceded to get on the floor and throw a temper tantrum. At first he was just awe struck and then he began to laugh, and so did I and so did everyone else.

Then I resumed my normal state and quietly I asked him if he thought I looked funny. He said yes, and I said so did you - but I didn't laugh at you. Then I took him to his room and we proceeded to have a discussion about the best way to handle disappointment.

At the age of 15 he had a 15 year old tantrum, stood in the middle of the kitchen ranting and turning red and swearing and I stopped drying the dishes and simply listened and waited out the storm.

When the storm expired, I asked if he wanted to have a discussion now. First, I explained what I got out of his ranting and asked if that was the real issue or if was an underlying one. After about ten minutes of talking he apologized for his behavior at which point I said, almost everyone feels overwhelmed at times and some people find it most helpful to be allowed to just vent - I allowed it.

Patience requires self-discipline, much more discipline than punishment but it has alway worked for us. My Godson on the other hand, at 6'2" once found himself backed up against the refrigerator with my face as close to his as I could come, one of my hands clenching the front of his shirt and the other holding his arm behind his back.

He was not well-disciplined as a child so as a teenager he could be rude and disrespectful. He had been so to the the extreme "in MY house" toward his mother. In a near whisper into his surprized face I said, I will accept alot, but in MY house I will not accept blatent disrespect of any person. I then backed off and continued making lunch. I noticed his mother and him exchange a glance and then he told her he was sorry and left the room.

Very glad to hear this :). But my example and of what i was asking was an entire life time, not just a few minutes here and a few minutes there. I mean her ENTIRE life she went along disowning you and even horribly downing you with insult after insult after insult. Would you seriousely still be able to love that child more then anything in the world? Still continue to try to make a relation with this child, their ENTIRE life. Because that's what God seriousely does. Not comparing you to, no worries not making this personal. Just trying to put you in more of a perspective of God.

NO MATTER how much God's children disown him and talk so horribly down on him, God still continues to helps us all.

You know, I began researching religions at the age 10. By the time I was 12, I was hitting the library. Back then, even the library, in my corner of the world was not very useful as a source of theology.

Some of the most difficult research was with regard to Angels. I had a spiral notebook full of mythology about angels which was attained through discussions with minisers, pastors, and a couple priests and a whole lot of people. But no one, not even the clergy could direct me to the ready kind of material in which a novice could find all this mythology explained.

As you say Abra - it is mythology because, as I discovered, the sources of angelic information often are deeply rooted in anchient beleifs, not even originally affiliated with the early Hebrews and obviously, less affiliated with Christianity.

Actually in some Hebrew mythology Satan was considered the antogonist - that was what his name actually meant. It was later translated to the word devil, which is actually the word used to descibe a legion of Roman soldiers.

Makes sense that the Biblical translation come to us as devil becasue it was the Romans whom the Jews considered their antagonists.

As was most of the harm caused to personnel working in family planning clinics in which abortions were practiced.

Short of long-term, harmful physical abuse, disowning, ostracizing and discrimination, are the worst form of punishment that one human can extract on another. It is immoral, unethical and inexcusable.

When a Christian individual or group inflicts and supports such extremism, not only are they acting immorally and unethically, but they are hypocritcal as well.

For has not their God proclaimed that His is the only judgment that can end with hell? Is not hell 'exclusion' from everlasing life in the presence of God?

So do Christians act as God by sending the ostracized away - out of their sight?

See what lessons men can learn from their god?

Muslims have judged and will deal with homosexuals and they proclaim to have the right to clean the earth of them.

Progressive Christianity says, if it's a sin, God will judge and deal with it.

Will you have that judgment for here or after you go? And do you want fries with that?

Naw, I usually get the onion rings. However, where I'm going, I will super-size the Coke!!