Abracadabra:
I would point you to the first several chapters of Genesis to show you that God did not create man as "inept." This of course is according to the Bible which you dismiss, but nonetheless it does set the record straight in regards to your claims against the "Christian view" on the subject matter which are inaccurate: 1) God did not create man as "inept" but as "very good" like the rest of his creation, free from sin AND with free will. Man was tempted and then CHOSE by his own free-will to disobey God; hence sin entered man. If you continue reading Genesis you can see the changes in the heart and character of Adam & Eve.....it wasn't merely a disobedient act without any further effects on them, but their spirit (or heart) was affected by their action; internally, a change took place. We see immediately after their "fall" that they are now exhibiting things like fear, deceit, dishonesty....heart-expressions as a result of the fall. And this spiritual condition was passed down through the generations to all man.

Sin isn't so much an act as it is a condition; you were born a sinner, and therefore you sin, just like the rest of us. We inherited it; it's a part of who we are whether we like it or not. You may not like this and may claim it as "unfair" or whatever, but nonetheless this "angry, judgmental and bloodthirsty God" that you have taken issue with has totally provided for your need without you even asking Him too.

It really doesn't matter whether you're talking about Billy Graham or Mother Theresa or whoever; as humans, we tend to look at sin horizontally, but God looks at it vertically; it's all the same to Him. The "little sinner" needs a savior just as much as the "big sinner". This of course only begins to make sense when accepting the proposition of the absolute holiness of God.

Also, in regards to living eternally, yes, I do believe we will live eternally. Yet I certainly do see death as our greatest enemy (not a contradiction), because when I refer to "death" I am referring to spiritual death....meaning separation from God in hell, where people's soul/spirit still live eternally but in a very bad place....

So where we will live eternally does depend on what we choose concerning God's Son; will we accept Christ who by his sacrifice received God's judgment against sin on our behalf, or will we choose to stand before God apart from Christ and receive it ourselves?

Well, from my point of view the very story of Adam and Eve is flawed with human errors of logic.

If before eating from the tree of the knowledge of "good and evil" Adam and Eve did not know the difference between "good" and "evil", then clearly they could not have knowingly chosen 'evil'.

Evil in this case being to disobey God (which is really the only definition of evil we have).

Therefore Adam and Eve could not have possibly knowingly chosen evil before they even knew what it was. At the very best all they could have done is made a totally innocent error.

Therefore the entire story of man's supposed "Fall from grace" is already flawed logic.




This also makes no sense. If I am born a sinner and it's in my genes, then I can't be held responsible for that anymore than I can be held responsible for the fact that I have blue eyes.

Therefore to claim that I'm somehow 'guilty' for being a sinner is an erroneous and unwarranted accusation since I had no say in the matter.

As far as I'm concerned Christianity is nothing more than a religious brainwashing scheme that was created by exceedindly arrogant mortal men. They quite unscrupulously designed it as they went along making it basically impossible for any human being to be able to claim that they aren't 'covered' by this religion.

And that extreme human arrogance is what makes Christianity so utterly ungodly and disgusting.

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned you've fallen for a very ignornat brainwashing scheme that has been created by mortal men. And look at you now? You've fallen for it so deeply that you're actually hard at work supporting it and trying to sell it to other people.

As far as I'm concerned it's a disease of the spirit and mind. Created by mortal men, and perpetuated by mortal men. It's far too 'ungodly' in so many ways, that I can't imagine it remotely having anything to do with anything divine.

It just pits man against man, and creates horrible and often quite violent arguments.

You said yourself that you see some pretty nasty stuff coming from both sides of these holy wars on the Internet. Men sitting around having heated and often quite angry debates over whether or not the Bible represents the "word of God".

I can't even imagine a genuinely intelligent and wise creator who CAN intevene and set people straight if he wants to, to just sit back and do nothing when he sees his every own children arguing over his book because his book is so utterly insane, stupid, and poorly written.

That mere fact in and of itself basically proves that the Bible can't have anything at all to do with anything holy, as far as I'm concerned. It creates far too much hostility between people.

That cannot be godly.

Well, from my point of view the very story of Adam and Eve is flawed with human errors of logic.

If before eating from the tree of the knowledge of "good and evil" Adam and Eve did not know the difference between "good" and "evil", then clearly they could not have knowingly chosen 'evil'.

Evil in this case being to disobey God (which is really the only definition of evil we have).

Therefore Adam and Eve could not have possibly knowingly chosen evil before they even knew what it was. At the very best all they could have done is made a totally innocent error.

Therefore the entire story of man's supposed "Fall from grace" is already flawed logic.

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They weren't kicked out of the Garden specifically because they did evil. They were kicked out specifically for disobeying God. So it has nothing to do with knowing good or evil. The fact still is they knew not to do as such and they did it anyways.

But the very criteria for "evil" is disobedience of God.

If you decide to murder someone on your own, that's an act of evil.

However, if God instructs you to kills somone, then it's not evil.

The only criteria for evil is disobedience of God.

So if Adam and Eve didn't have an understanding of "good" versus "evil" before they ate of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, then they could not have understood that disobedience of God was 'evil'.

Therefore they could have only acted in pure innocence.

The story fails. It's logically unsound.

No they didn't know it to be evil, but that's besides the point. They were told not to do it, didn't need a reason cause it was evil, because it was blue, because i don't like you, or any other reason. They were told not to eat of it, nothing more was needed to be said.

No they didn't know it to be evil, but that's besides the point. They were told not to do it, didn't need a reason cause it was evil, because it was blue, because i don't like you, or any other reason. They were told not to eat of it, nothing more was needed to be said.

So, are we to do as the Bible tells us and stone disobedient children? Kick them out of 'The Garden' because they 'sin' out of curiosity? Because I have to tell you, when you parent a few of your own, you're going to run into much worse. :)

Your response reminds me of the movie "North Country", where a single mom tries to make it in a male-dominated profession and has to put up with all manner of abuse. Even her father somewhat sides with the harrassers until his wife finally puts her foot down and tells him to quit putting down his own child down for making a mistake and just wanting to make a decent living for herself and her child.

"For Pete's sake, Henry. She had a baby. She didn't rob a bank!"

-Kerry O.

We no longer are to stone anyone. We are judge to judge anyone in anyway, Jesus came and fullfilled that is now the judge of us all. Jesus will be the one stoning or not stoning someone. It's not our place anymore.

That wouldn't make one bit of difference if your unchanging God changed as you claim. The fact still remains that he was an absolute jerk during the days of the Old Testament.

So it doesn't matter that he was finally reformed after thousands of years and saw the error of his ways.

If your view of this religion is correct, then Jesus would represent God's apology to us. A God who has gone utterly insane and has decided to appease himself because he has recognize what a terrible parent he's been.

Jesus himself told us that He will not judge us. Therefore Jesus isn't going to judge anyone. And the Father has no right to judge anyone because he's already confessed that he was an absolute jerk and poor parent. His confession comes in the form of Jesus himself.

I think I'm beginning to understand the religion a little better now. God had himself nailed to a pole in the form of Jesus because he knew that he was unworthy of humanity.

It's a shame that our creator had a nervous breakdown like that. But who knows? Maybe he's recovering now and the Wicca Moon Goddess is taking care of him and helping him rehabilitate. She's a quite loving God and will probably have a very positive influence on him.


Maybe when he gets better he'll decree that everyone should have some cake and ice cream to celebrate his recovery.

The only thing that changed was who judged you for your sins. Before people stoned children for sinning and was a hand for a hand thing. People were the judge on earth. Then Jesus came and is now the judge of us rather then possibly your neighbor. Nothing big changed, just who was the judge. Wasn't a changed idea or anything contradicting or anything.

Just notticed you said Jesus said he will not be the judge of us...... would you please enlighten us with a verse on this?

John.12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Yes while he was on earth he was not here to judge anyone.

" I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."

Nottice the "FOR I CAME NOT TO JUDGE THE WORLD, BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD" While he was on earth he was not here to judge us, but to give us the ways to be saved.

John 5:30
30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

So you're suggesting that his word is untrustwrorthy and may change depending on where he is at the time?

You're making a lot of assumptions that have no basis in what the man was actually supposed to have said.

Jesus freaks just create their own little marionette Jesus doll and make it say whatever they'd like to believe Jesus should have said. The problem is that it doesn't match the doctrine they claim to be worshiping.

NO, it is because there is a word called "context". Many words can be used in many different ways using different context. You have to not only take the verse as it says, but use the surrounding verses to know it's context.

That's the common deceit that Christians continually try to pull. They reject the words of Jesus and try to shove their own words down this throat.

Jesus wouldn't even support Christianity if he were alive today. I'm sure of it. The Christians totally twist everything he supposedly said.

Jesus never claimed to be the son of Yahweh, and he never claimed to be 'lord', nor did he ever ask anyone to call him 'lord'.

The Christians actually lie when they claim that Jesus said these things. It just isn't written in the doctrine anywhere.

And you would know this how?

By having searched through the Bible for specific verses that actually have Jesus specifically claiming to be the son of Yahweh, or asking for anyone to worship him directly or call him Lord.

No such verses exist.

I put this first verse so that it can be referanced to what the word of God is in the revelations verse. Jesus is the word of God.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Matthew 4:10

10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
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Revelations 19:11-16

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[a] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[c] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: King of kings and lord of lords.