That is what my objection is. And yet people think that we want to 'irradiate' or 'eliminate' the book. Why do people assume this is what we want?

Just STOP INSISTING that this is the WORD OF GOD and should be taken as the gospel truth that need not be proven and that it requires someone to disprove that it is true.

That is all I am asking.

Geeeze.

Is that too much to ask?

Back to my question:

I see so many people leaving the churches and so many people seeking the hidden knowledge... even scientists are desperately looking for the "God Particle" (which by the way, I suspect they will never find.)

I wonder if they will understand what that really means. That there is no particle... that this reality is just light and vibration and nothing else.

That this is just our three dimensional dream.

I wonder if they will understand that we live in a self manifested holographic dream universe? If they do, I wonder how they will tell this to the population that still believe in a deity...

I agree it COULD have been an act of love if Jesus were a mere mortal man who offered to sacrifice himself to God that demands blood sacrifices.

However, once Jesus is placed in the position of being that same God's Son sent to appease itself, then the whole thing changes from an act of LOVE to nothing more than pure demented sickness.

Who would that God be appeasing? Himself? That's sick.

And if he was appeasing Satan, that would place him in an extremely desperate situation where he has no choice but to appease a fallen angel.

As far as I'm concerned the story simply isn't workable at all.

I also agree with you that we shouldn't attempt to change each other minds. And I'm certainly not attempting to change yours. But I also believe that the reason this bloody story survived for as long as it has is precisely becuase people did not previoiusly have the freedom of speech that we have today. A person could easily be shunned in their society or even put to death for suggesting anything negative about the Bibical picture of God.

Even in Issac Newton's day this was true. Issac Newton studied the Bible in great detail and came to the conclusion that Jesus could not possibly have been the Son of Yawhew. Yet, he could not state those views publically because if he had done so he would have faced serious charges and possible execution.

It used to be an extremly serious thing to speak out against the Bible. This is why the religion became so powerful for so long.

So now that we have freedom of speech, I'm going to take the opportunity to share my views on a public forum of why I feel the whole religion was a horrible thing from day one. It causes people to have totally unnecessary guilt complexes, especially about sexual intimacy. It can very easily be used, and has been used historically, to reinforce male chauvinism. It's still being used today to judge homosexual activity and even judge people's spiritualities that are not inline with the Biblical teachings.

So yes, I loath the Bible. Absolutely. I think it's the worse book that mankind ever wrote. And I'll point out how utterly absurd it is with every opportunity I get.

Finally, I personally believe in "Intelligent Design" (although that is a very ILL-DEFINED term so let's just leave it wide open to interpretation). For example, I'm convinced in evolution, both the evolution of the universe, and the evolution of life on Earth. So when I say that I believe in "Intelligent Design" I'm not suggesting that there was any intent to 'pre-design" humans specifically. I just see this universe as having been designed to evolve into living sentient beings. Humans are just one example of what's possible, and the large diversity of life on Earth shows this to be the case.

I don't think we need to believe in Zeus to believe in a spiritual essence to life. Nor to I believe that we need to believe in Yahweh, or blood sacrifices, or any such nonsense.

On the contrary, if I'm going to give our creator credit for being intelligent, then clearly I'm not going to be pointing to the Bible as being "His Word".

It doesn't need to come down to either Believe in the Bible or become an Atheist. Unfortunately though, many people do indeed believe that those are the only choices. That's truly sad.

It's actually incorrect to say that scientists are looking for the "God Particle". That's more of a media thing than anything else. Scientists who are truly in-the-know and at the cutting edge of things are fully aware that there are no 'particles'. In fact, when serious scientists speak about this thing you refer to as a "God Particle" they actually call it the "Higgs Field", they don't even refer to it as a "particle" at all.

Scientists who are truly in the know understand a lot more than you might think. And most of them are not atheists, but instead most of them do indeed believe that something far deeper is going on than meets our eyes.

Scientists who are truly in the know realize that information exits within the quantum field, and prior to the Big Bang. So a lot of what you hear on Internet Chat rooms being portrayed as "science" is really a gross distortion of what real scientists actually know.

Science neither points to, not suggests, a happenstance atheistic universe. That is nothing more than a popular myth right there! Almost as bad as the Biblical Myth. Science is actually pointing to a cosmic intelligence (or at least organized information) that is NON-PHYSICAL in terms of the physics of the universe we actually see around us.

So true science goes far deeper than the atheists claim. Science itself has become a distorted mythology by the masses.

Yay for freedom of speech and freedom of religion!

Perhaps our ancestors were so frightened and threatened about expressing their doubts that this fear was genetically passed on to their children.

I recall a farm cat who had gotten into our house when I was a child and eaten an entire pie and a half then pooped smack in the middle of my Mom and Dad's bed and was found sleeping in the children's bed.

My father was so mad he picked up a bull whip and smacked that cat with it one time. After that, the cat cringed in fear every time she saw that whip. Then her off spring and her off springs kittens too ran in fear when that bull whip was held up and shown to them.

Whether they learned it from their parents or whether the memory was in their genes, for generations all of our farm cats feared the sight of that whip.

That is what I see in church discussions when people are allowed to have a group discussion. They are still afraid to express their true thoughts and doubts about what is in the Bible or about what they are being told.

People are still afraid. They are afraid of "not belonging" or of being called "heathen." Politicians are still afraid to admit that they are not Christians or that they are atheists.

Yes I know. The term "God Particle" is the popular version and the media version of the Higgs bosen. I am glad to hear they are calling it a field now! I had not heard that. It seemed to go from the Higgs Bosen particle to the Higgs Bosen (particle left off) and now they have added "field." That's good to know.

But what you say here is true. Yet you do not see the media picking up on any of it. The common folk are not ready to hear those things, science or not.

The real scientists have always recognized that it's a "field". The whole particle thing is actually left-over language from the Classical Era.

And yes, the media picks up on what they think the public wants to hear. They aren't in the business of "education", they are in the business of "entertainment" and creating drama.

The saddest thing about the Abrahamic religions is that it causes many people to take the attitude that if those religions aren't true, then there must not be a "God" or any spiritual significance to life. In other words, they think along the lines of thinking that it's either the Biblical God, or atheism. It's a really shallow line of thinking.

I've spoken with many "irate" Christians (who became "irate" simply because I suggested that the Bible might not be true). And their reaction and reply to me was quite simple. They said that if the Biblie is false then there is no God and the whole world is a meaningless accident so there's no reason to even be moral, we may as well just go out an kill people and take what we want.

In all honesty, if the religion pacifies those kinds of people I'll donate money to buy them a Bible myself.

It's scary to think that there are people who would do truly horrible things if they believe there is no God. So the religion does indeed work as a deterrent to keep some people in line. However, I don't believe that's true of the masses in general. I think most people are genuinely good-natured and would want to live good lives whether there exists a God or not.

Also, there's no reason to assume that just because some religious fable is false that translates into the idea that there can't be any spiritual meaning to life. After all, people have no problem at all dismissing Zeus as being a totally false myth, yet they still need something else to cling to. I guess they simply see the Abrahamic myth as the "Last Straw". If they have to give that up then there's no place left to go but Atheism.

But it truly doesn't need to be like that at all. That's just an exhibition of extremely limited imagination and thinking. It's also a sign that people have never truly understood the Eastern Views of spirituality and view those as being "distastful" for some odd reason.

It really amazes me that people can dismiss Eastern Mysticism and yet turn around and embrace a jealous egotistical God who is pacified by blood sacrifices. Talk about a "distasteful" picture. That's extremely distasteful picture from my point of view. In fact, that's even more distasteful than pure atheism for me. I'd rather there be no God or heaven at all than for it to turn out to be ruled by a jealous god who lusts for blood sacrifices. That's a worse nightmare that atheism, IMHO.

To each there own I guess.

Well the stories are only stories. Ones which can be used for education but not in a mean or demeaning way.

The god of Abraham is the same as the Moon Goddess. There is no need for blood sacrifices. All these religions believe in one god and they can all be correct in that respect. But if there is one god...well then it really does not matter what rituals you observe or what book you read or how you talk about sacrifices. As long as everybody plays nice.

I understand that all too well. I have a friend who is a minister of a church, and he pretty much said the same thing to me. That if he discovered that all he believed in was false, the he would go the opposite way and just go over to the dark side.

He was telling me that he would give in to all that he resists as "evil" now and just do what ever he wants. That was rather shocking to me for a minister to admit that.

So I agree, I hope those kind of people stay committed to their religion. In that respect, religion is a good thing that holds together a bunch of crazy people who might otherwise be criminals and very bad behaving people.

Here is the bottom line for me, the individual, who HAPPENS to be Christian. For me, the Bible is the Truth,, I can insist it is truth to me, I dont insist someone else believe it is truth. Freedom of religion is no less or more important than any other freedom humans have and I just ask that people stop taking it so personally or being so offended in what other people hold as 'true' so long as that person isnt causing them or the community harm,,,,


The Bible is Truth just as History is,,, I cant prove EVERYONE we hear about in our history books actually existed, just that they were written about. I take on faith they were written about by sane people who actually witnessed their actions and I Take the same faith in believing in the trueness of the Bible.

As far as Jesus,, like I also stated previously,, when we apply what we as MERE humans regard as important (the flesh) than alot of things God did would be considered heinous,, but when we apply those things to THE creator, from whom Humans were able to even exist at all,, it becomes as different as comparing a childs choice to run nude with an adults. We are a different 'creature' than God and we do have different rules,,, rather we think it fair or not...

I'm in complete agreement with that. They are both archetypal creations of man, both designed for the same purpose. (i.e. to worship and communicate with the divine creator)



This is true of the Mood Goddess, but clearly not true for the God of Abraham. The very mythology that defines the God of Abraham demands blood sacrifices. It's part of the archetypal mythology for that God. To say that there is no need for blood sacrifices is the same as saying there is no need for mythologies that demand that concept.

To say that Christianity has no need for blood sacrificies is to deny the very basis of that religion (i.e. the idea that Jesus was sacrificial lamb of God sacrificed to pay for the sins of man)



I'm actually in agreement with you on this. In other words, I coudln't care less if people want to think of God as an entity that demands blood sacrifices to pay for sins. Just as long as they don't PUSH that concept onto me.

The problem with those religions is that they DO PUSH. They push very hard, and they also influence society in general to brainwash the masses to think that way (which also has a negative impact on my life since I live on this planet too)

Just like Jeanniebean said, "Even politicians are afraid to admit that they are atheists or even not Christains". And their "Fear" is quite warrented because if they made those views public they would lose a large section of the voting public.

You say:



Well, from the point of view of an all-wise creator, I would agree with you. Because, IMHO any creator who doesn't truly think like that is far from being "all-wise".

However, that very thought flies in the very face of the "Jealous God" of the Bible.

I actually DO think like you in a way Slow.

When I read the Bible and it says, "Thou shalt not have any Gods before me". I simply take that to mean that we should worship our creator. Therefore if we view the Moon Goddess as an archetypal image that represents our "Creator" then we are indeed worshiping the one and only "Creator".

But let's face it. That's NOT what the authors of the Bible had in mind! It should be pretty clear in the rest of the text that what they were attempting to say is that you heed THEIR words and THEIR archetypal image of God and not go running off worshiping other archetypal images of God.

So in essence I agree with you. From a personal point of view it doesn't matter. But from what actually written in the bible it doesn't appear that the authors there would agree with you. That's basically what I'm saying.

In other words, the Bible itself doesn't seem to be in agreement with your own personal interpretation of what God "should" be like.

And that's why I reject the Bible Slow. Because it disagrees with YOU! And I know that you are a very wise man.

Well, you're certainly right there Msharmony. And I hope you don't take my strong views against the Abrahamic religions personally. I don't view Christians in general as being bad people. I know a lot of really nice people who have embraced Chrisitanity.

I think what you need to understand is that historically the religion has been very caustic. I'm a scientist (not an atheist), and I've studied science my entire life. What thing that I found highly disturbing is how often religion (usually Christianity) was the cause of much greif and aggravation for genuinely brilliant scientists over the centuries. It just appears to me that every major advance in science ultimately became a long drawn out struggle against the Church and religious views.

This was clearly true when Copernicus and Galileo recognized that the Earth was not at the center of the universe and were grossly chastized for their observations.

This type of thing also happened many times throughout biological discoveries. Gregor Mendel, the father of genetics, made his brilliant discovery only to be laughed at and chastized by the religious community who also happened to be the governmental authoritarians (which was often the case throughout history). Mendel was not only chastized and humilated for his brilliant mind and discovery, but he was also forbidded from becoming a teacher because he was also declared to be too stupid to teach and was rejected from any teaching positions. His brillance wasn't 're-discovered' until 30 years after his DEATH. So not only did this slow down the pace of science, but it also totally devastated a brilliant man, simply because his observations weren't in line with religious thinking.

Darwin was given a similar harrassment for his discovery of evolution. In fact, just look around, and even today there is much religious resistance and denial of evolution. It's utterly stupid. The evidence is in. It's undeniable, yet this religion keeps people in a mindset of the dark ages.

So just for the sake of human intelligence I see this religion as a cancer of the mind. And therefore I loath it with the same passion that any doctor would loath cancer.

And I haven't even mentioned the crusades and witch burnings that truly inflame me. Such ignorance caused by this same religion. Even the Library of Alexandria and the stoning to death of Hypatia were all done in then name of Christ. It's truly sad.

When does it stop? Clearly it's still going on today with heated debates about wanting to teach "creationism" in schools versus the scientifically recognized and observed FACT of evolution.

All these things upset me from a pure humanitarian point of view. However, even on a personal level this religion has been the cause of much unnecessary aggrevation and grief in my own life.

So from my point of view, it's just a horrible mythology that continues to be destructive day after day after day.

Like Jeanniebean asks. When will the ignorance finally end?

I realize that as an individual you are just trying to be the best person you can be, and you've bought into this religion and believe in it. I can understand that, I truly can.

But at the same time, when you publically support it, all I see is yet another person contributing to pain that it continually causes.

The "Christianity" that you support, probably has nothing to do with the original religion anyway. Many modern day Christians actually reject the negativity and just go with the good things that Jesus taught. I only wish they could see that the things that Jesus taught were the same things that Buddha taught and just follow Buddha which would require the very same actions as following Jesus. The only problem with following Jesus is that it also support the whole mythology of Yahweh. Which I personally believe that Jesus himself renounced. That's precisely why he was crufified. Not because some God sent him to Earth for that purpose.

That's my BELIEF.

I woudl become a Jesus Freak myself is he could be seperated from the ungodly story of Yahweh.

So, my appologies if you take any of this personally. It's the historical religion that I loath, not the followers of it. They are totally innocent sheep. That religion is RUTHLESSLY brainwashing! Just like JB says. And I'm all too aware of that.

Just the same, I speak out in the hopes of helping people who already recognize it's absurdities and maybe need some support. I also hope that I might be able to convince some people that it doesn't need to come down to a simple choice of either that religion or atheism.

I'm not an atheist. I believe in spirit. I just don't believe in the Biblical version of it is all.

duly noted abra,,,I would like to add this quote,,,

"the irreligious are no less prone to senseless violence than the religious" http://de-conversion.com/2008/08/01/mythbusters-without-religion-there-would-be-no-war/



people are too quick to try to find a singular scapegoat for human nature being human nature,, I dont feel religion has caused anymore problems than it has helped to solve,,,,human beings must live and learn and apply what they learn,,,and the human factor is why there is so much variation between what different individuals learn from life or their book(s) of choice and how they apply it.

Hunters(Some) use guns to hunt their food. It is their tool. Others use this same tool for terrible things. The Bible is a tool for the religious. I dont hate all guns, I hate their misuse. I similarly detest the misuse and misinterpretation of the Life of Jesus and the lessons of the good book...but this is not because of the book itself or the religion,,merely because of the VARIETY and UNIQUENESS of each individual who follows or believes...

Any powerful tool can be misused against the masses, but I caution against mistaking the misuse of the tool with the uselessness of it. Consider the constitution,,,it is a document many americans hold dear.....look how quickly people will rally and get emotional about what they believe the founders of the constitution meant with any particular amendment,,,,look how quickly people can be rallied against each other in the name of preserving it,,,,,,,It is a tool that yields much power and which many people will use for divisive purposes and potentially(if we live long enough) to condone and promote wars and heinous acts against each other,,,,,(keep in mind too the bible describes events over a span of THOUSANDS of years,, we have yet to get the opportunity to see what the constituion will be like that far out)


this is the nature of anyone or anything with power, that it can and will be misused,,

I fully understand that, and I never meant to imply that religious people are the only ones who cause problems. IMHO a lot of atheists are just as bad in their extreme demand that there can be no God, or that science has somehow proven that life is an accident. Those people are abusing science just as much as religious fanatics abuse religion.

However, getting back to what you said about Jesus. I truly have no problem with almost all of the moral values that have been attributed to Jesus in the "Gospels" of the New Testament. That's only a very TINY part of the New Testament by the way.

In fact, I'm in total agreement with just about every moral value that has been attributed to Jesus. However, if you study the teachings of Buddha you will find the EXACT SAME TEACHINGS! In fact they are so similar that many people (including myself) believe that Jesus had actually been educated in Buddhism and that's precisely what he was attempting to teach. Because after all, the teachings of Jesus are in perfect alignment with Buddha, and completely OPPOSITE of what had previously been taught in the Old Testament.

Therefore it make far more sense to me that Jesus was actually a Buddhist. Perhaps he traveled to India during is 17 or so missing years. Because all of his actions and teachings are in perfect alighment with Mayhayana Buddism which was the prominent form of Buddhism at the time Jesus lived. In fact, at that particular point in time the Mayhayana Buddists demanded that in order to enter their school you must first swear an oath to become a Bodhisattva (which is precisely what Jesus' behavior reflected)

In any case, the point being that if you want to follow the teachings of Jesus all you need to do is follow the teachings of Buddha because they are precisely the SAME teachings. Jesus did not add anything NEW to those teachings.

The only difference between Buddha and Jesus is that Jesus was proclaimed by the authors of the Gospels to be the Son of Yahweh. And therein lies all the negative stuff that is associated with that religion. It takes all the love that Jesus taught and just buries it in the Jealous God notion and the need for a blood sacrifice to pay for sins and all of that. Plus it ties Jesus to the OLD TESTAMENT. A testament that he clearly did not even agree with.

As for the BULK of the New Testament. That was written by Paul. And all Paul did was use Jesus (as the Son of Yahweh) as an excuse to dredge up all the dirty crap from the OLD TESTAMENT in Jesus NAME! The very things that Jesus renounced!

I actually see Jesus as being a VICTIM and PASTY for all those authors who abused and USED his name to prop up the very doctrines that Jesus himself renounced.

So in a very real sense, the whole religion even upsets me on that point. They take a poor guy who was crucified for trying to teach love and peace, and use him as a patsy to create a religion that uses his name to prop up everything that Jesus himself tried to hard to do away with.

I actually respect what Jesus tried to do. I feel horrible that the whole thing backfired on him and he ended up being used as a dead pasty to support the very dogma that he was trying to draw people away from. It's so sad.

The new testament writers were many,, not just Paul....as to following Buddha,,,


although I respect others choice to do so,, I find he and Jesus to be different enough that I choose to follow Jesus instead

a brief analogy would be if we take the subject matter of sex,,,which is a human , and natural thing

some believe,,sex should be a source of personal satisifaction , independent of any judgments beyond the body that is involved,,because sex is wonderful

some believe, sex should be a source of BONDING, with the added benefit of personal satisifaction,,,done in a spirt of bonding and commitment and not JUST done in the moment,, because sex is SPECIAL


.. now these two schools of thought are very similar in their REVERENCE of sex as something positive,, but the specific details of how they interpret the action and the REASONS which it is positive are different



Buddha was not a saviour, and Jesus was
Buddha did encourage positive things,, but his basic reasons were about salvation of the HUMAN , Jesus was concerned about salvation of the soul
Buddha did not rise from the dead,,,Jesus did
Buddha did not sacrifice his mortal life,,, Jesus did

,,of course, these are my beliefs, nothing I have scientific or any other resource to PROVE,, other than my bible and my faith,, but you see why FOLLOWING Buddha would not be an option for me although I can ADMIRE the things he tried to promote

Well I certainly respect your opinions too - very much so. I just feel like disgust does not become you. I reconciled myself with the bible long ago. I don't believe in loathing. I looked and found beautiful ideas there - and I interpret the rest with a sense of recognition of the ancient nature of the texts.

I believe that the sacrifice of Jesus is also allegory not "Passion of the Christ" gory. I see it basically as the story of the overarching need for repentance, forgiveness and personal sacrifice and other than that I simply consider Jesus to be the human incarnation of God for the Christian narrative. Much as Mohammad is the divine prophet in the Islamic narrative. In this sense they may be identified as extensions of the God of Abraham.

I read nothing into it which requires blood or violence - instead I focus on the peaceful messages. I take the attitude that it is not important what you believe or take on faith but how you act and treat each other. I take the various commandments as what was thought to be the best or most holy way to live life circa 3000 years ago and interpret them as guidelines now.

Life is too short to loathe.

Well, at least it's an inanimate thing that I loathe.

I don't loathe the authors of the Bible. I just feel sorry for them and their victims.

Well, not all of them. Clearly the Bible does have good stories in it too. In fact, it's truly unfortunate that is has the bad stories in it. Jesus had the potential to start a really good religion. It's a shame he got tangled up with the original dogma. Because the "Jealousy Factor" got smeared all over him.

The authors of the Bible ended up demanding that Jesus is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords an every knee will bow to him and every tongue will confess that he is Lord.

I don't believe that was ever what Jesus had in mind.

The thing that seems clear to me is that a group of men, involved in politics and religion, created a religion that would unite as many apposing followers of different faiths as possible in order to gain a majority of the people into a single group so that they could rule the empire (Rome etc.) via the church and the priests. Back then, it was religion that had most of the power.

A random thought: I think AARP is trying to collect older people to join their silly club to use as political clout, and to have a large mailing list to whom they can sell depends, hearing aids, drugs and life insurance.

Its about group dynamics.

Yes, I see it as nothing more than a scheme to control people via fear and threats of eternal damanation if they don't align themselves with the church (which in those days was the POWER of the governement). Even the Bible itself has verses in it that say that to disobey the King is considered blaspheme no different from disobeying God. It clearly has political agendas.

When I say that I "loath" it, I mean that in the same way that I loath the holocaust, or child abdution, or child abuse. In fact, I very sincerely see the Bible as a form of child abuse. It places totally unwarranted guilt trips on little childern. I've known quite a few people who have been traumatized by this religion in their childhood. So from my point of view it's just a totally ignorant thing.

As I've pointed out in one of these threads, it even continues to have those negative affects today. It causes a lot of people to reject science and argue against evolution (simply because this scientific disovery flies in the face of the Biblical story).

It also causes people to harshly judge the lifestyles of other people such as gays. I've seen videos where christian mobs were passionately saying hateful things against gaya. When asked if this violates the teachings of Jesus who taught not to judge others, the Christians replied, "We're not judging anyone, this is God's WILL!"

So the religion just continues to perpetuate open hostile bigotry under the pretense that this is "God's Will" and NOT the personal bigotry of the Christians who are spreading such hate.

I don't condone any of that. It's just a cancer of the human spirit. So I loath it in the same way a doctor would loath biological cancer. It's hate and bigotry disgused in the name of Jesus. It's just totally sad and depressing.