I greatly respect peoples choice to be environmentally correct. If it was mandated, I also would not take issue.

As part of my religious beliefs however,, although I do believe we are to respect life I also believe we were given reign over everything not human and that everything is here to work for the good of our existence. So, the balance, for me,, is that we use what we have been given and created but never to the point of gluttony.

I'll dismiss myself, thank you. I never said "don't speak", ever. But you cast the first stone. Your original post was snide, condescending and had nothing to contribute to the conversation other than your belief in God. The topic was about whether self-sufficiency (or self-reliance as it was apparently intended) of PEOPLE pertaining to RESOURCES on this planet. This was not about a physical trait in human beings and how they acquired that trait. If you're going to be stupid enough to inject your ignorance on the subject, then I have every right in the world to point out that ignorance and make the attempt (however much you may deny it) to correct you. Period.



I tried politely to push you into a more coherent direction for the conversation at hand and you took offense. Not my problem. I thanked another member for once again contributing to the actual conversation and you took offense. Not my problem. This has nothing to do with my disbelief in God, just as if someone said "I like swiss cheese" in the topic. My problem is people who interrupt a thread simply so they can "spread the Good Word".

Blow off.

I think this may be one of those classic communicating-through-text problems....I'm wondering if LadyLovely has a great sense of humor, which comes across as far more combative than she means it, since we can't hear her tone of voice.

Just thinking out loud here.

Ok, here's my take on that...It would be easy to say God wouldn't allow this or He wouldn't allow that...or ask why...which I have done on many occasions.

However, I am not a fundamentalist nor am I Amish or Seventh Day Advenist...I do believe we should be respectful of the environment we live in, however, I also believe we were all given provisions we need to survive in this world. Our environment may be weakened, but will never be destroyed until the end of time (imo),

"Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment."

This is a fundamentalist belief that some religious people rely on to prove their point...however, I choose to believe quite simply that caring for our environment and the people around us is a natural instinct we all are given...the phrase "God would or would not allow" is so bizarre to me due to the fact God being who He is can do anything He chooses and who am I to question it??

So many times I have tried to intellectualize reasons for tragedies or famine only to come to the conclusion that there is evil in this world and destruction and free will...and at times we fall victim to this, but ultimately God has His hand in giving each one what they need to "get through" and hopefully help others "get through" based on our experience. Self reliance, ultimately, is me knowing this...it doesn't mean I never need help...it means I realize why this help is available to me and Who provides it.

We are all just vessels in this world.

As for gluttony...seems Adam and Eve messed that up for us ...it wasn't just about temptation ya know...LOL!!

Oh trust me...I'm laughing my butt off at this guy being all so serious...and NO I'm not preaching or "spreading the word"...I just didn't realize it was on the environment and thought it was on self reliance pertaining to me as an individual...but when an atheist attacks my right to speak of God (regardless if it's on topic or not) I have the right to toy with him and watch his head spin...lmaooooooo

reminds me of an old saying 'no man is a vessel unto himself'

we all need others in some capacity,,,

It would be nice if people could be sufficient, not just self-sufficient.

Considering the amount of people in this country who don't realize how their food gets to the supermarket, it would be nice if we could even get that understood.

A chicken lays an egg without a rooster. Women have periods without men. It's the same thing. A cow has to have delivered a calf in order to provide milk. Asparagus doesn't miraculously create itself inside a can.

I'm deadly serious, as these are questions I get all the time. And, ooohhh boy, I bet we would have more vegetarians running around, if people were shown exactly what happened in a slaughterhouse. Not sanitizing the visual imaging.

100% agree!!! I saw on a talk show the other day..the rising percentage of obesity in this country and how much chemicals we consume daily through food we pick up at our grocery stores, fast food places, restaurants..etc. I swear it made me want to dump out my kitchen cabinets and refrigerator and run to the nearest fresh market.

In the sense of our dependence on natural resources, we no longer are self reliant, or should I say very few are in comparison!! It's too easy to trust that everything we put in our mouths is not going to harm us. YIKES!!!

Our portions are bigger, our food is more processed and they wonder why people die more now than ever from "natural" causes.

Quoted for truth.

Actually, I've seen what happens in a slaughterhouse and I still likes me steak!



Even a lot of the "organic" food at supermarkets is not really organic. Anything that claims organic that starts with the number 6 (don't have any examples here, but if you have ever noticed Chaquita bananas are food code "4011" then you'll know what I mean), they're just close enough to qualify as "semi-organic" and are allowed to be labeled simply "organic". Anything that starts with 8 is supposed to actually be organic.

But I say, since you can't avoid it, you might as well enjoy it.

As far as resources, though, as I stated before, I think what matters is how much you're self-sufficient as opposed to an empirical "am" or "not". If I had a generator that supplied all my power, then I would be sufficient in that, though maybe not in other areas.

@LadyLovely Just to clarify, I never attacked your right to speak about God, I was trying to correct your misunderstanding of what topic was about ... which I see you've realized. If you had seen it as such, we could have avoided this whole fiasco. I think we can now move on.

One particular slaughter house? Maybe you happened across one the ones which not only follow the legal guidelines re: animal cruelty, but go far beyond those requirements in how they treated their animals.

I'm sure it was one of the "better" facilities, but the point remains the same. Its the slaughter of the animals that's supposed to be traumatic enough for me to never want to eat meat again, right?

My point is that there are--closing on--seven billion people in the world, in order for any food to be had for consumption, lots of things have to lose out. You want to eat vegetables? Fine, but you have to destroy alot of ecosystems for enough farmland for EVERYone to eat. Do I agree with conditions at a lot of places that I've also seen on the documentary "Food Inc"? No, but I'm also an omnivore by nature, as all humans are. Transcend, yes and all that, but sorry, I like steak.

not a problem...I apologize! I misunderstood and I respect your opinion ...to each his/her own! I don't condemn but I don't lie either...I judge! LMAOOO

I don't know what the original poster intended, but from my point of view: no, not at all. I don't expect people to quit eating meat when faced with the reality of animal slaughter; I would expect many caring and compassionate people to quit eating factory farmed meet if they faced the specifics of how many of the animals are treated before they are slaughtered.

I have known hunters who have sworn off of all non-hunted meat when they learned what really happens at some slaughter houses. Obviously they are not opposed to animal slaughter; they were opposed to animal torture.




Have you taken the time to really educate yourself on this topic? On the whole, the way that food is produced today, a vegetarian diet requires far less farmland than an omnivore's diet. In certain limited settings, eating cows and goats and such makes a more efficient use of certain regions, such as hilly grasslands; but on the whole, the beef we eat is not raised on grasslands, they are fed the products of farms resulting in a very inefficient transfer of the total energy/nutrition produced by those farms into humans. Eating beef requires more farmland than eating vegetarian.



Every one of us, in some way, chooses our own desires over caring for other humans or animals in some way. I completely don't care if you eat steak. Declaring that you eat it because you enjoy it is an honest approach which I can respect.

Ok, misunderstood what you meant. No, the slaughterhouse I attended did not seem to abuse animals in any way (exception for the tour?) and maybe that might have affected me differently, though I can honestly say that at least for myself, I doubt it. However, I may now be an active member of PETA ... heh.

As far as the farmland goes, I did not mean to suggest what takes more to farm, merely suggesting that, because of how many people are in the world and the growing demand for food, clearing land for farming destroys ecosystems. Fertilizers can do harm to streamlife, as does animal waste product. Pesticides do the same to some local flora just as they do their intended crop targets, killing insects that feed the local fauna and poison streams as well.

Do we do away with fertilizers and pesticides? Certainly they help maintain the food supply and protect farmer interests. What steps must be taken to do away with both and still ensure that large portions of crops be protected for human consumption?

I respect your point of view.

As a side note, I think on the whole having tours is better for the animals than not having tours. If you know the public is going to occasionally walk around your facility, you are more likely to enforce policies (or better yet, create a cultural atmosphere) that prevent conduct you'd rather the public not witness. I don't just mean that as a matter of deception - it can also lead to a sincere concern for doing things well.



All of that is consistent with my understandings and beliefs, and its all worthy of concern.



I'm not sure if you are making a deeper point related to the 'nirvana fallacy', but no, I don't think that completely eliminating pesticides from the world overnight would be a net gain, despite my agreement with what you said above. I do think that having a larger number of people who support farms that don't use pesticides is a good thing.