I should state again that I am not a religious person. I am not arguing anything specific about who Jesus was or wasn't. There is a lot more clarification in your second response to me and I do see your points. Perhaps I misunderstood what you said in the first response.

I saw that you said (roughly) Jesus never said any of that, other people said he did... I responded to this. I know that you cannot believe everything everyone says, but you also cannot dismiss something just because it is second hand. I can very clearly tell you what my ex and I talked about last night. The fact that she isn't here telling the story doesn't make it any less accurate.

I know there are many problems in the bible also. The god described in the old testament was a power crazed being destroying anyone he felt like... floods, plagues, crumbled cities, etc. While this same god in the new testament is the loving, forgiving type ... Fatherhood changed him that much? What ever happened to the "I am the same yesterday today and forever" bit?

I was raised in a christian home and in my teens I studied many religions, I chose to be a part of none of them. There are way too many questions that none of them could give a sensible answer to.

Well, that's really the bottom line of my point. I don't see how Jesus could have possibly be the son of Yahweh when they clearly had extremely different mindsets on how to solve problems etc.

Jesus is someone I could agree with. In fact, if I went back and had a conversation with him it would be extremely boring. He would state his point of view, and I would say I agree, and that would be about the extent of the conversation.

However, as you have also observed, the teachings and philosophy of Jesus were totally opposite to those taught in the Old Testament as the directives and actions of Yahweh.

So it's clear to me that Jesus was not the son of Yahweh in any capacity. The question then becomes, "How much of the New Testament actually reflects what Jesus might have actually taught, and how much of it is nothing more than an attempt to create the rumor that he was the sacrificial lamb of Yahweh sent to pay for our sins.

I think, if anything, it's crystal clear that the whole sacrifical lamb thing does not align with the personality of Jesus. Therefore to take things like "I and the Father are One" to mean that Jesus is Yahweh, makes absolutely no sense at all. This is why I feel that if Jesus was indeed making such claims he must have been making them in an Eastern Mystical context and not attempting to imply that he and Yahweh are the same entity.

It just seems to me to be common sense to see that the claims of the authors of the New Testament just makes no sense at all. They were clearly bouncing off the rumors of some things that Jesus most likely did say, but they seem to be twisting them around to their own conclusions.

Even Pilate said, "I see no grounds for the charges against this man" And he was in the midst of it supposedly, and even talked with Jesus directly about it.

Assuming we can even in believe THAT hearsay.

It's probably better to just ignore the whole thing. But clearly since it has become a very prominent and powerful religin in the modern world it's hard to just ignore it altogether. We have freedom of speech for a reason. Why not use it? Remaining silent is what gives the religous mythology power to grow.

doesn't matter how much evidence you provide to refute that Jesus was God, Christians will bury their heads in the sand.

But in the same breath Mohammad was a Syphilitic pedophile and also shared a lot in common with many despots.

And bringing that up is a death sentence among Islamics.

From what I understand Mohammad is not Islam. he is just a prophet (and a seriously messed up one at that!) Once upon a time (Before the second Crusade) Islam revered Jesus as a prophet like he is supposed to be. Then along comes the Catholics and their attitude which is the same as contemporary Islam, criticize us and you die.

Jesus was a man. Nothing more and Christians lost the point that it was his word that saves. He never said "Build churches and organize. After you do that kill all the heathens."

Another point BOTH sides, Christianity and Islam forget their prophets are mortal and human and also fallible. They let deluded old men guide them in a changing and modern world and use tradition to try to force compliance upon people. BOTH religions do not favor free thinking. Both religions are all about subservience to an unseen and invisible "God of love" who is a hypocrite capable of playing both sides of the argument because God is Perfect. Well, God is both good and evil but everyone wants their God to be a God of Love. That justifies their heinous acts of murder in the name of their God. Man has a bad habit of Making EVERYTHING we touch in our image including God.

Jesus is my lord and Savior? NOT!

Supposedly we are all children of God according to both religions. I see a lot of children in need of a serious spanking!

Your own logic is faulty and you compare two unlike circumstances. Harriet Tubman's existence is substantiated. Her actions were recorded by people CONCURRENT, living in the same time as she lived, and those people can largely be documented, as well.

The event in the Christians Scripture are substantiated ONLY in the Christian Scriptures. There is no independent evidence that Christ was put to death, that he rose again, or any of the other aspects of his life. In fact, it cannot be proven that Jesus lived.

Considering that the scriptures (if not all) were largely written AFTER the death of Jesus instead of as they took place, their accuracy is highly questionable; in fact, they only need to be compared for inaccuracies to know that. Paul never met Jesus, yet he was the prime mover in getting Christianity off the ground.

In addition, the CS are also suspect merely because they contain so many miraculous happenings that defy rationality. If someone said that Harriet Tubman picked up a train engine with her bare hands and threw it at Confederate troops, we would NOT believe it, would we?

It is amusing that you accuse others of being illogical when you present so many logical fallacies.

First, the "either/or" fallacy of the three options--there are more:

4. He was a practical joker and never realized that things were getting out of hand.
5. Jesus never existed.
6. Jesus existed but the events surrounding his life and death are pure hyperbole; he was a good Jewish boy who would be shocked if he knew how he is presented now.
7. Jesus didn't die.
8. Jesus was a woman in drag.

Your possibility #2: Liar

Why was he lying? Was it for selfish gains or was it because he really wanted to "save" the Jews? In that case, he might have been more than willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good.

And he did try to back down; in the Garden of Gethsemane, he asked that the "cup of poison" be taken away from him.

As for your "lunatic" theory and the Sermon on the Mount: someone can be delusional and logical! There are brilliant people who suffer from mental illnesses.

According to the tenets of Christianity, Jesus' logic fails in this sermon. He says,

7:17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt
tree brings forth evil fruit.

7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

But refer back to Yahweh creating the world and how evil came in. God, the "good tree," should only bring forth "good fruit," yet some of his creations are not so "good." Therefore, having brought forth "corrupt fruit," Yahweh must be corrupt.

That's logic.

He also says:

7:13 Enter you in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in there:

7:14 Because narrow is the gate, and constricted is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.

So, few people will get their feet on the narrow path and find heaven, eh? That means that everyone who does not accept Jesus as savior is damned.

Believe or suffer: I will tolerate no one who does not acknowledge me as god. Yup, really logical and a plan for my life!

(And this is where he fed ALL those people with fish and bread. I buy into that, as well.)

Gaius Calligula also claimed to be god. Then again I speculate that Jesus's own words were twisted to fit the agenda of the Catholic Church. Heck, the bible WAS written by the Catholic Church!

Bravo!

Looks like you nailed it right there using Jesus' own logic!

Not exactly. That would be like saying your dad should go to prison for you killing someone, it's your dad's fault you killed that person. God can not be accounted for the actions people take, for it is still their free will to do anything they want to do.

the analogy and or parable, a good tree only bears good fruit does not have anything to do with having children. The fruits we bare are the actions we have done in our lives. In the same meaning of the fruits of your labor.

God is great and what God created was great till it was corrupted by Satan.

if his followers dont try to live by his example does it really matter? i mean its really hard to convince me that you truely beleive that this man is God if you dont even try to live by his teachings,

case and point , "do unto others as you would have done unto you."
you think jesus would be bashing gays? or having a stand off with the feds at some militant ranch in nowhere texas because he wanted to marry a bunch of under aged girls that he convinced the world was ending.

"it is easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."
so do you think jesus would be pissed about socialized medicine, or wall street being regulated?

the messed up thing is is im sure one can find several ambiguous biblical quotes to contradict this.
to me this only proves the point that jesus had alot of people speaking for him after he was gone and for that matter he still does.

i dig jesus but his salesmen suck.

Well that Satan fellow must have been more powerful than God to be able to corrupt all of mankind.

Clearly your logic isn't working here because it flies in the face of the idea that ALL MEN are sinners. The religion is nothing more than a bogus guilt-trip that is being panned off as being the "Word of God". It can't be made to work. It's that simple like that because it inevitably always comes back to the fact that in order for it to work you need to have your cake and eat it too.

In other words, you can't claim that every man is responsible for his OWN fruit, and then turn around and DEMAND that ALL MEN ARE SINNERS! That's just hypocritical bull. But that's PRECISELY what the religion attempts to do!



Truly,

Like Mahatma Gandhi said, "I like your Jesus, but I don't care much for your Christians."

please do research before you comment on something you know nothing about.
a pedophile is someone who is attracted to children sexually.
My prophet was not this. Aisha was given to him by her father Abu Bakr for two reasons...so Aisha could be well cared for, as Abu Bakr's father couldn't provide for her adequately, and second the Prophet SAW had been devestated over the death of his first wife. After turning down Abu Bakr's request, he finally agreed. Aisha was already engaged to someone else in which the father broke it off, and Aisha fell in love with him almost instantly.
The charge that she was only 9 years old isn't accurate because they never kept records of age then and therefore noone could have known her age making any alleged hadiths that have her saying she was 9 are false.

Not exactly. That is what JUDGEMENT is for. We aren't dammed for our actions, we will be judged accordingly.

All people are sinners, that is why God gave ways to be forgiven for our sins. Before Jesus came to earth people would sacrifice things for forgiveness. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, so who ever believes in him shall not perish but have ever lasting life.

Well, can't you see how bogus that is?

The original religion was supposed to be a God who actually cares about how people act. But the Christians turned that all around and now demand that God judges people on what they BELIEVE.

That's the whole scheme! It's a religion that demands that if you don't believe and follow it then you're damned no matter how good you try to be. That's the whole brainwashing scheme that only a manmade CHURCH could come up with.

No genuinely compassionate and wise God would pull such a dastardly stunt and basically CHANGE the program into being about what you BELIEVE instead of how you BEHAVE!

This very notion flies in the face of a supposedly unchanging God.

Like I say, the religion is a "Have your cake and Eat it too religion". They want to claim that God is unchanging, but in order for their religion to work their God necessarily MUST CHANGE.

In fact, if at one point he solves the problem of sin by flooding the planet, and then at another point he attempts to solve the problem of sin by having Jesus nailed to a pole, then such a God would be extremely confused and totally undependable. If he changes his behavior that radically then he would be an untrustworthy god. You couldn't trust him not to change his mind again.

It's a "have your cake and eat it too religion". Their very demands of what God must be like, and how he behaves, are in total conflict with each other. It's clearly a religion that got derailed (mostly be the Christians who attempt to make Jesus out to be the Son of Yahweh). That idea just isn't workable.

again not exactly. Nottice the "we will be judged accordingly". Which would make it to where we would be able to try to defend ourselves rather then just automatically be damned.

Just because one believes in God does not meen they will go to heaven. That would be like saying it's ok if you go around killing people as long as you believe in God you will go to heaven. Cause also with believing in God we are to listen to what he tells us. But God knows as flesh we stumble time to time and make accidents, we stumble we just have to get up and dust ourselves off and learn from that mistake.

and on God changing.....
Nothing has changed. Before they sacrificed animals and stuff of that nature for God to be forgiven. Jesus was our ultimatic sacrifice. We sacrifice our ways of living now instead of animals and such. We don't pursue fleshly desires. We sacrifice stealing, lieing, doing drugs, and much more to try to reach heaven.

That's a totally different kind of sacrifice than a blood sacrifice.

The whole idea that sin needs to be paid for by a blood sacrifice is the insane idea.

You're attempting to muddle the idea by suggesting that we still need to make "sacrifices" (i.e. do the will of God). That shouldn't need to be a "sacrifice" anyway. Anyone who believes that doing the will of God equates to a "sacrifice" is merely saying that they'd rather not do the will of God. And that just brings into question their whole sincerity.

If you feel that you need to make any "sacrifices" to appease God then clearly you'd rather being doing other things and the only reason you'd be making such a sacrifice, is precisely as you say to get your own butt into heaven, NOT because you want to please God. The whole thing turns into nothing more than people LUSTING for heaven.

So the whole "Sacrificial" thing makes no sense to me no matter how you paint it.

I mean, if it makes sense to you, MORE POWER TO YOU!

I'm merely voicing my reasons why I feel it's absurd. Any discussion of "religoin" is ultimately a discussion of philosophy as far as I'm concerned. I just see no merit in it. It appears to me to be nothing more than a man-made institution to keep people in line by offering them an eternal treat that's beyond imagination if they are good, or an eternal damanation and suffering beyond imaginatin if they are bad.

Clearly it works to keep some people from doing bad things. I guess in that sense it has value. Unfortunately it also causes innocent people to be ridden with totally unnecessary guilt complexes, as well as causing others to become judgemental bigots in the name of God. They just say, "I'm not judging you, GOD IS!"

What a crock.

for one no one has any right to judge anyone regardless if the say "i'm not juding you, GOD is" for they do not know the judgement God would make in that instance.

And for another, reason of sacrificing things the flesh desires is simple. Heaven isn't a given, you have to earn your way into heaven. Of course you can't buy your way into heaven, you have to EARN it as a reward of your good listening and behavior on earth.

"Unfortunately it also causes innocent people to be ridden with totally unnecessary guilt complexes"

shouldn't make anyone feel guilty of anything. If we seek forgiveness true heartedly, we are forgiven and it's wrote off like we never did it in the first place. So therefor their is no guilt cause it's like it never happened.

"to get your own butt into heaven, NOT because you want to please God"

Of course it's not just to please God. Do you not do crimes to just please the government? No i do not think so, you don't do them cause you know the consenquences of such an action. Same way with following God's law, I follow them to not receive hell but to hopefully recieve the gift of heaven. And again, heaven is not a given, heaven is earned, it's a reward.

From the very words of the Quoran, she was married at 9 and he took her at 11. Yep, get there before the hair. And this whole kill all the infidels? Look in the mirror buddy, I bet you see a Christian looking back at you but you deny it. Evil is intrinsic in the heart of man and to take such a Theocratic view of your surroundings is pretty... lame(?). I can read too. I can argue all day long that Mary (the former prostitute) and Jesus had a thing going on and that they had a relationship and it was even possible he married her but Christians have this need to follow a "pure" savior. The Quoran says a lot about dying a virgin and martyrdom. I know there is more to it but in the simplest terms it is the same misogynistic tripe the Bible is full of. Many people are not familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy. It is Christianity but it has its own more fundamental twists. There is a lot of woman bashing on both religions. On top of that both are used to justify pedophilia going on in the west. Why do you think there is so much scandal in the Catholic Church right now? Their sins run deep. Now for you evident choice in life? Your faith ENCOURAGES child marriage. If that is how you chose to fly who can I complain except we have norms here and having sexual relations with children is frowned upon here. So why is it some Nigerian Islamic Cleric can marry a 11 year old Egyptian girl? He is special? He paid the family over $100K for the bride's price? Think she is still a virgin?

Once upon a time Islam was about culture and Music. The mathematics called Algebra was born in Islamic territory. So what happened? Suddenly music and art is bad? Don't portray Muhammad even in a historical light or "we" kill you?

Pathetic, Small minded, and IGNORANT! That is how so many Christians and Islamics come off to me. So you are so perfect as to walk on water? I am not. Can your voice bring calm in a storm? Mine can't. Do not assume I am ignorant of Islam. I just don't like the fundamentalists of any religion especially when they have this whole "us or them" mentality!

I want to see Saint Patty and Muhammad get into a fist fight! That would be comedy!

The God of the old testament was Elohim made of God the Father and the Logos. The Logos was the God walking and talking to the sons of God. This Logos later laid down his immortal life and became flesh being Christ. The Logos was God and with God in the Elohim.

what fairytale book does this come from?