Hamas attacked 'first'????

Spider, just how much of the history of Fatah, Hamas, the al-Aqsa
Brigades, etc do you know?

Have you looked into the Hamas-Fatah transition, or the US and Israeli
roles in it?

I can send you a bunch of sources if you like.

Everyone interested in this MUST read Alvaro de Soto's May 2007 report.
52 pages. It is now available on-line, including at the Guardian
website.

Well...not MUST, but it will greatly help understan what has been going
on.



Oceans

hey, adj!

Enlightenment on what?

The President of Palestine, Mahmoud Abbas, has just suspended the
government and Parliament, which is run by Hamas. The Prime Minister is
from the majority party, Hamas.

Gaza is entirely under control of Hamas.

In effect this leaves the president and Fatah precariously established
in Ramallah in the West Bank, and Gaza under Hamas.

The Israeli plan to provoke violence and divide the Palestinians and
destroy their democracy has worked. The US State Department, USAID, and
Bush administration have abetted this, in the same way that the US stood
by silently when Israel last invaded Lebanon.

This is a shameful moment for all concerned. Blood is on their hands,
whether they pulled the triggers or not.



Oceans

Israel made generous offers to the Palestinians in the Taba talks. There
could have been some major peace development if the Palestinians had not
been determined to reject everything as unreasonable. In my opinion
Israel has been trying to resolve the issue. So yes I know about Taba.

Friends of mine from Iran have told me that Iran was much better under
the Shah. I don't know, but it appears to be so from what I see. The
Mullahs take the position of greedy dictators bent on ruling with the
force of death regardless of the opinions of the Iranian people. Great
wealth was stolen from hard working people in the Ayatollah movement.
Great poverty was brought upon the people as thanks for the Mullah's
empowerment.

The Shah acted as a friend to the United States and our country had
friendly relations Iran for many years. Iran was one of our strongest
allies in the region. I see that as a good thing in many lights, one
being that the United States holds fairness and the rule of law as
values.

Ocean, It does not help much to be well informed if you never look at
both sides of a situation. I see you taking strong positions in an
anti-American or perhaps anti-administration perspective in most matters
related to the middle east. You are welcome to your opinion, and I'm
sure there are others who share it, but I think your time would be
better spent trying to point out the other side of the discussion. I am
saying that you always take the position against the government. Why do
you do that? Let me remind you that our country has had problems with
international relations going back for a long time and with the middle
east in particular. To place the blame on the current administration is
to ignore history. Why would you do that?

The only explanation I can come up with is a determined left-wing
position. Such a position frequently bombs the administration at any
cost and at any opportunity. What people do not realize is that the
manifestation of such action is a rise in anti-American sentiments
across the world. Blast the administration, but the group that gets the
brunt is the country, not the administration. It is better to look to
the interests of the United States and give some trust to the good
nature of our politicians and elect better if they do not prove to be as
good as we want, rather than to slander their intentions every step of
the way. Particularly in the way it is being done, blaming the US for
every middle eastern problem of terrorism and violence.

Hamas is a on a war footing and calling their success an Islamic State.
This position, aggressively chosen, implies that any attack against
Hamas is an attack against Islam. This is a similar rhetoric to that
offered by Iran. Furthermore it is a development of an Iranian
(ayatollah) hegemony in the region.

Once again, if you want peace in the region, take the power out of
Iran's hands.

Philosopher -- that does not sound like Taba at all. Maybe you are
thinking of Camp David II?

Yes, Iranians who supported the Shah think that things were better under
the Shah, but they were only so for the elites in the country; he was
one of the most brutal dictators in the last years of his rule. Look
into SAVAK for more info on that.

Hamas does not call for an Islamic state. Remember that many
Palestinians are Christian. yes, they do not accept the existence of
Israel: Israel seized Palestine and Hamas seeks to liberate it. It might
be possible for Israel and Hamas to have negotiations and reach a
genuine compromise, but Israel has taken the stand that Hamas must agree
with it BEFORE negotiations. Of course, this isn't going to happen.

Remember that Israel now has a right-wing Likkudist-lite government. If
Labor gets its act together and Barak becomes PM, the Israelis will
start talking with Hamas with no problems.

If you read my postings, you will see that I do not blame all our
problems in the Middle East on Bush. Clinton and Albright and the
handful of neocons who were in his administration (I've explained this
and named them elsewhere at length in other threads, if you are
interested) took a hard turn toward Israel and effectively brought the
hopes for peace to a halt.

But the damage that Bush has done is unprecedented, and he is in power
now, as are many neocons. So we focus inevitably on Bush and his
problems and damage.

Don't worry! I criticize anyone I feel has made mistakes, regardless of
the labels you wish to put on them!

It is not criticism of the US that is weakening the US internationally,
it is the policies that the US is following. As long as we follow those
policies we will continue to get weaker and weaker. My posts are
intended in part to teach people what is going on and why, as I
explained above, and to learn what is on the minds of others. The
people of this country have a moral obligation to learn and to influence
the policies of the US so that we stop self-destructing, or playing into
the hands of false 'friends'.

If you put a label on me, you will not be able to understand what I am
saying, or why.

I do understand your frustration, and share in it.



Oceans

spider i feel the same way about The Republicans...lol

Gee, you're up early!

Hi Alex!

Did you miss us that bad!

no i am just home to the hotel after celebrating Elsa's death
it's 3 am here paris time

hittin the sac....see yas lata!

Sweet dreams!

hey Oceans!! mornin...ugh a little hung over here...but it was worth
it..

so i just read your posts above...it was so obvious the US was using
Isreal to divide and conquor....i have no love of the hammas or
hezbollah or fatah for that matter.... but i was glad to see that they
had a decent and fair election and it just goes to show what a farce the
US 's stance on democracy is.

it's democratic as long as we approve of the outcome
???, and if we don't like it ...tough???


well what about the american elections then??? why don't you all just
deny the bush administration just as he has done to hammas??
it was not even a democratic and fair election and you fools are still
eating out of his ass
i am so sick to my stomach of the whole disgusting fascist behaviour of
america..... i seriously waver whether it should just get swallowed up
by yellowstone when it erupts... i could even find my religion to pray
for that one. after Lawry sails by and grabs all the ones we need to
save...


hey you could be the new Noah! lol

and how many innocents

would that kill


no one thinks of the innocents

Morning, everyone!



Hmmmmmmm...... I'm about ready Alex!

Washington, Boston (pick up my first mate), Ireland (just what port,
Andrea?), Amsterdam (alt. Beirut), Azores, Malta.... Panama.... Who
else?



Oceans

One of the many ironies of the Bush/neocon administration is that having
asserted the importance of 'introducing' democracy in the Middle East,
they are now backpedaling as quickly as they can, because in free
elections the population is selecting leadership that opposes the US and
Israeli occupations in the Middle East.

My sense is that it is the Israeli tail that is wagging the US dog when
it comes to policy in the Middle East. It is not so much that the US
uses Israel to oppose Hamas, but that Israel uses the US to oppose Hamas
and others.

It is not that Israel is more powerful that the US (!), but that Israeli
goals and actions are highly focused and coherent, while those of the US
are incoherent, diffuse, and internally contradictory.


Oceans

Oceans5555

Do you really believe that the USA stood up for Israel?

The Israeli plan to provoke violence and divide the Palestinians and
destroy their democracy has worked. The US State Department, USAID, and
Bush administration have abetted this, in the same way that the US stood
by silently when Israel last invaded Lebanon.

A soldier was taken in an ambush from lebanon right? they refussed to
give him back and that was all Israel wanted even though several other
soldiers were killed. Am I right?

The USA did not stand up for Israel. No they showed a double standard.

Yes the USa waited for awhile. but do you remember Bushes State of the
Union speech in 2003?

Did he not say that we would not differientiate between terrorists and
countries that harbor terrorists?

Of all nations on this planet Israel has had the most dealings with
terrorists on thier door step.

Isn't Israel our Allie? If so why did Condolice Rice fly over and talk
with Israel and what happened next? Israel stopped it's forward march.

Shouldn't the USA afford our Allies the same right as our foriegn policy
under Bush is right now?

No we did not we stopped Israel and it was a huge mistake. We very well
may of saved many innocent lives if we would of kept our nose out of
it... Take Care ... Miles

Miles -- the Israelis have some 7,000 to 11,000 Palestinians under some
form of illegal detention. To say nothing of those who are killed by
Israeli air and ground strikes. If the seizure of one Israeli soldier
justifies invasion of a country, think about that the seizure of such
numbers of Palestinians justifies.

The US did not hold Israel back in its invasion and bombing of Lebanon,
it stood aside. The Israeli invasion ground to a halt because Hizbollah
fought back and caught the Israelis by surprise. Do check out the work
of the current Israeli commission that is in the process of analyzing
what went, from the Israeli perspective, wrong with their invasion. A
lot of their material is on-line, and their is a good discussion of it
in the pages of Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post, also on-line.

I do not care what the paper say. They have been proven to say anything
they want. My point was/is if we would of kept our noses out we would
not see what is going on over thier now. And the palistine govt. strive
for democracy would be in place. You condone the ambush apperently.
Israel asked for thier man back. The palistinians in jail are thier for
a reason. How many terrorists are thier around Israel? If you had people
surrounded all around you killing your loved ones are you going to just
sit by while they take your brother hostage? Is not asking for him back
civil? You my friend are fighting for people who would slice your throat
and your mothers throat in an instance if you dare spoke against them
while living with them.... look at thier history and Israel's. Thier is
no comparison.... Miles

I can see that you have never been to the Middle East, Miles, nor know
any of 'them' personally.

I hope that someday you have the chance to do so. I think you will be
very surprised.

Oceans

Oceans, You said that Hamas doesn't call for an Islamic state, but
immediately upon their success they declared the state to be Islamic.
Their words contradict your own.

Yes it was the Taba conference I was describing. It was a summary I
read. I did not attend the meeting. Obviously your source did not agree
with mine. Imagine that.

As for Iran, they would just as soon staple a burka to a woman's face as
let her go without it. How does that affect the common people. Today in
the news they want to execute anyone who has participated in the porn
industry. While I am not supporting porn with this comment, I am point
out intolerance. Intolerance has a direct affect on the common folk.

The only people benefiting from the Mullah rule are the people directly
in the structure of the government.

Philosopher

1. HAMAS government spokesman has just repeated today that they do NOT
want to establish an Islamic State in Gaza. What is your source for
saying that they do?

2. OK, you insist you are talking about Taba. So, what is the "generous
offer" that you say the Israelis offered? And what led to the
unsuccessful conclusion to the Taba talks? What is the source you are
citing?

3. Women in Iran do not wear the burkha. Perhaps you are confusing Iran
with Afghanistan, where some do?

4. What is your source for burkhas being stapled to a woman's forehead?



Oceans