I mentioned some months back that a start up company in Austin, Texas had invented a "super capacitor" capable of replacing the battery in an electric car. The patent came out recently and the patent claims roughly ten times the power density of a lead acid battery. This claim would give the typical 40 to 50 mile range of a lead acid powered car a range of 400 to 500 miles and could be recharged in seconds ... not hours. Super capacitors do not wear out and would last for hundreds of thousands of charges.

If true, this is the biggest news to hit the car, oil, and war industries in forever. It would quickly mean an end to the need for foreign oil.

Begin Quote:

"The Texas company behind the apparent breakthrough, EEStor, is primarily notable for two things: its secrecy (it doesn't even have a web site to link to) and a patent application that describes a process for manufacturing a well-insulated capacitor. It apparently relies on barium titanate (BaTiO3) as an insulator, something that's been tried in the academic world. But line eight of the patent application suggests that the charge storage is much higher than anything achieved in an academic lab: 52 kilowatt-hours in a 2,000 cubic inch capacitor array. A rough conversion calculation suggests that this is over 10 times the power density of standard lead-acid batteries.

Is this sort of breakthrough realistic? In the absence of an actual product, it's easy to dismiss patent claims as hyperbole. But the Associated Press is reporting that the ZENN Motor Company, which makes compact electric cars, plans to start using the capacitors before the year is out. The company has invested in EEStar in return for production goals being met and so is in a position to know how realistic its claims are. EEStor is also led by personnel from IBM, which has a strong materials science research presence and has attracted the backing of a tech-savvy investment capital firm. Still, the AP report quotes a number of researchers in the field as being extremely skeptical. One noted that the charge density claims of the patent would represent a 400-fold improvement over existing technology.

Given ZENN Motor's plans, we shouldn't have long to wait before finding out how realistic the patent's statements are. If EEStor's claims pan out, the resulting cars could be charged as quickly and conveniently as filling a gas tank. Until that product is released, however, the skeptics have ample reason to question these claims. "


http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=EEStor&OS=EEStor&RS=EEStor

Wow! so now that we have the 1.21 Jigawatts, all we need is the Flux Capacitor to go back to the future!

At the personal electronics industry! And the camping supplies industry! Its truly mind boggling.

It could eventually change the dynamics of war; the locations, the motivations, but I'm not convinced it would lessen the amount of war.

they are a little behind schedule...they have been working on it since 2001 when the patent was filed...it is possible that they "exaggerate"



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEStor

From the patent document...
(http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description;jsessionid=185176A86FCAC80AEC5858A7F593CA3B.espacenet_levelx_prod_2?CC=US&NR=2004071944A1&KC=A1&FT=D&date=20040415&DB=&locale=)



Thats 336 pounds in about one cubic foot - a little less than half the density of lead. And also about half the weight of a 20 gallon tank of gasoline. Just a bit if trivia that I found interesting.

What I think is cool is the possibility for truly independent, all-wheel drive, like diesel-electric train engines. We just have to get the electric motors scaled down to fit within the parameters of a personal vehicle while keeping the horsepower-to-the-wheels factor high enough. (And of course the suspension problems that go along with that approach.)

Fascinating prospects though.

this one on the other hand is the real deal...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_double-layer_capacitor

Real Deal? 1957 is very old technology that is not going anywhere and is not capable of powering a car. It has maxed out it's efficiency while still being useful in many applications. The charge/weight density needs of a submarine or locomotive are not the same as a car.

The EEStor company is well funded and has been developing the patent for several years. The recent patent application was only a few months old. It's merits have convinced Lockheed Martin and is about to go into mass production. If the claims are exaggerated, they are fooling some very smart material scientists, including some from IBM.

Time will tell but they do not appear to be in a position to exaggerate too much.

There will always be war but a product that truly reduces the need for foreign oil to little or nothing would certainly take away certain pressures toward the "need" for war, i.e., vital resources.

Would the weight you attributed to a 20 gallon tank of gas include the tank itself, or just the gasoline.

Cuz I hate to break it to you, but the math on that is flawed.

Gasoline weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. 20 gallons weighs 160 pounds, or thereabouts anyway. Even if gas weighed in at 10 pounds per gallon, the math still doesn't add up.

Having replaced gas tanks a couple of times, I KNOW that a 20 gallon tank doesn't weigh in at 176 pounds ( even on old cars ), which is what your calculations stated it should weigh.

Someone is overstating the numbers for their own purposes, methinks.

Not pointing the finger at you. Just at wherever you came up with those numbers.

I do think, if that company isn't exaggerating their claims, that their unit could solve the problems with battery life and efficiency in cold climates.

Actually, not that it really matters, gas weights six pounds per gallon and water close to eight.

Ok. So that would put a gas tank in the range of 200 or more pounds.

Like I said...I have changed a few and know they don't weigh that much.

Just making sure the person who posted that has accurate information.

Thanks for the correction.

And, in a way, it does matter. If one cubic foot of that capacitor weighs in at 336 pounds, that is more than the gas and the tank combined.

The idea behind it is a good one though. But do you really think it's gonna change the world?? The auto companies are now owned by the government.

If they want that patent....they'll take it by hook or by crook.

Anyone remember the DeLorean? A stainless steel bodied car that would never rust.

Didn't take long for the car companies and the government to figure out that, for them, that kind of car was a BAD idea.

Regardless of the power of the newest super capacitor, it will never equal the power of money. Exxon/Mobil bought out the rights to the nickle-metal hydride car battery just as GM killed the EV1 project. Even if this product meets all it's claims, money from the oil industry may do whatever it takes to prevent production because it's use completely cuts the oil industry out of the loop.

Exactly my point.

We will most likely never see that capacitor in mass production for vehicles.

Not to a level that would make a difference.

Perhaps. Zenn Motors is putting it in this years cars... unless something changes I suppose. Last year's investment by Lockheed Martin for military applications may swing the tide.

Zenn Motors??

Not to diminish what they want to do...but who in the hell is Zenn Motors?

At a minimum, even if the popularity of their vehicle skyrocketed, it would take several years for them to be able to steadily produce large numbers of cars.

Keep in mind, also, that Lockheed relies heavily on government contracts.

They can invest in the technology all they want. But if the government ( which now owns two out of the three major American auto makers ) doesn't want that technology to be taken advantage of, they'll just not give contracts to Lockheed.

Zenn Motors is a small electric car builder in Toronto. They invested over ten million in EEStor then decided the better plan was to build drivetrains using the new device and selling them to everyone in the manner of "Intel Inside" instead of putting it in their own car. They claim to have seen the pilot production line for the SC.

This will either be one of the biggest advances in cars or one of the biggest cons. But in either case, it will prove itself soon.

Well..we can always hope for the best.

Like I said....a capacitor like that would completely solve the battery issues in cold weather.

Pardon my skepticism but I remember cold fusion and EESTOR has been making claims for a long time now with nada to show for it. No one with any serious scientific training has critically examined, vouched for, published or reproduced their work over the last decade since they first made their claims.

So....it looks pretty flimsy. Sure some venture capitalists put some mad money into it but they often take high stakes bets on half-baked if not totally ridiculous technologies.

Lockheed did not put any of their own money into it.

As hopeful that I am that there will be dramatic ultracapacitor advances in the near term, and as confident that I am that there are always dramatic new discoveries to be made, I have seen nothing to indicate that these guys really have accomplished a big breakthrough in capacitor technology. Press releases notwithstanding.

The point of this thread is that "maybe" they did and "maybe" they didn't. Only time will tell and not much time is needed if they have a pilot plant in operation as claimed. Their secrecy is not unreasonable considering how much market share is involved and the speed at which countries like China would steal the technology.

However, the old tech capacitors used to "help" start a sub or locomotive are not the "real deal" in any sense used in this thread and have no practical use as a stand-alone power source for an automobile.

Sure. "Maybe." Just pointing out a nice summary of ultracaps.
The article also mentions some recent work at MIT and in Russia and China.