___________TO ALL OF THE ANTI-KIDS FALKS:
1. Have you ever thought of the fact you might be depriving the world of another Einstein???

2. Who'll be visiting you once in a while, when you're 84 -- alone at the nursing home???

3. Like the Beatles used to sing:
Will you still need my, will you still feed me,
When I'm 84?
{---------------- 30 years ago, 64 was an old age. Now its 84! }

Not all people should have kids.
I think it should be their choice if they want kids or not..

I know what you mean samgem. I have never wanted or even changed my mind about having children. im not a 'breeder' as most call it. i like what im doing. you stick by what you want, and you will find what you are looking for. no one ever said it will be easy or drop in your lap.

I love a civil debate so I'll answer your questions.

1.) Depriving the world of an Einstein? Einstein existed despite the fact that many children die in child birth as well as children who do survive child birth but die early in life anyway. I could also deprive the world of another Charles Manson or Jack the ripper. There's no way of knowing.

2.) Having a child for the sake of it taking care of you seems rather selfish. There is also no guarantee that one's children will get along with the parent. There are many dysfunctional families and many old people who die alone. We can't pick who will be around us when we pass on. Another situation out of my hands. I'll try to make more friends instead..

I think my second point answers your third question.

Thanks for the encouragement!

Sorry, samgem, but you might be deceiving yourself, if you think ANY of your friends will pay you any respect once you become "incapable"! Only your partner (and close family) might care enough.. But what good will their care be, if they themselves would be requiring the care?


I would disagree with that:
that is the "pauper" point of view!!! Do you really think the Queen of England doesn't know who will be around when she passes on???

As far as your destiny -- guaranteeing that your children will get along with the parent, or raising Charles Manson or Jack the ripper -- it depends on you! (I doubt their parents have instilled any moral values in those men).

There's nothing selfish in demanding some attention in arranging the elderly parent's well being -- hiring a live-in nurse, or securing a place at the Good nursing home -- if one is raised in the spirit of respect for the parent: giving back the care and attention isn't just an obligation, but a privilage!!!

No, I'm definitely not deceiving myself. We are both right in our opinions. The point is that there are no Guarantees. There are no guarantees that ANYONE will be there when we pass on or that the way children are raised will determine their outcome. I think you maybe guilty of wishful thinking or you have a really close family or both.

"that is the "pauper" point of view!!! Do you really think the Queen of England doesn't know who will be around when she passes on???"

The queen is far from the average person and no, I don't have her wealth or power. This is the exception and not the rule.


There are many who have been raised right and turn out wrong. To deny this seems naive. It's all a gamble, but what's NOT a gamble is knowing that I don't want children and as a result I will certainly not bring forth a degenerate into this world.

"There's nothing selfish in demanding some attention in arranging the elderly parent's well being."

That sounds quite selfish in my perspective. Look at your choice of words! lol Emphasis on the word demanding. I rest my case. lol

Furthermore we are assuming that we will live a ripe old age. Nothing in this life guarantees that. My ex's father died in '82 at 54 yrs of age from a heart attack during surgery for a unrelated issue.

I'm glad you enjoy your kids and family and would never attempt to take that away from you, but there are many people who shouldn't have kids as well as people like me who simply don't want the responsibility. For goodness sakes, I'm getting divorced! I can't imagine how difficult having kids would be right now.

Jane:

Have you stopped to think how hard it would be for a child to grow up knowing daddy or mommy didn't actually want them. No child should be subjected to that.

Sam is being honest and upfront about not wanting children and that is a good thing. You shouldn't try to play a guilt trip on the guy cuz he doesn't want kids, that is his right.

If you don't agree with his decision to not have children, don't read his topic :)

Personally I go either way on kids, I'd like a child of my own but that's not likely to happen.

Sam:

Good for you being honest and open with your decision, don't let anyone give you flack for it.

Oh dear, please, you make me sound as if I were a Kid-Nazi (as opposed to Scienfeld's Soup-Nazi, if you watched that TV sit-com), i.e. by no means do I suggest producing kids under any circustances! Certainly, in many cases that would be a bad idea -- like getting divorced, for instance!
Certainly, I understand your opposition to having kids in your situation. But all of your arguments are based only upon probabilities, i.e. "there are no Guarantees for this or that..."

However, what strikes me mostly is Your always emphacizing the Negative:
No guarantee for this or that;
Emphasis on the word "demanding", rather than "Privilage";
kids turning out bad or degenerate...

I think your current circumstaces do affect your psyche -- you don't see the light at the end of the tunnel... But in time, I'm sure, when pain and hurt will subcide, you'd be able to smile again and, who knows, fall in love again...

P.S. the reason I brought up the Queen of England is not to rub your nose in her wealth, but for the respect she deserves as one of the world's major politicians!
____________________________________________________________________

Foliel:
Before I say another word to you, I demand you indicate How am I trying to play a guilt trip on the guy (cuz he doesn't want kids).

If he didn't value my opinion, he'd never reply to my post - after which a discussion ensued.. Frankly, he doesn't need your defense against me... (nor I require your advise how should I conduct myself on a social network, thank you!)

As for your personal circumstances:
-- I AM SORRY!

keep in mind that everyone has preferences and those preferences are their choice.

You're first statement could be taken as playing a guilt trip.

"You could be depriving the world of another einstein"

second statement, "who'll be visiting you when your 84 in a nursing home"

If i misunderstood, I apologize but that's how I took it.

As for me not having kids, well that's just how life worked itself out for me, i'm not sad about it, just would have liked to have kids.

You're first statement could be taken as playing a guilt trip. -- However, that's not a fact, but just Your personal opinion!
--forexample:
ME:: "You could be depriving the world of another einstein".
a guilt trip: HOW DARE/SHAME ON You depriving the world of another einstein ?/!

second statement, "who'll be visiting you when your 84 in a nursing home" -- That's a perfectly valid question - no guilt trip

You sure misunderstood, and I accept your apology!

However, the way I see it, you simply took the issue too close to your heart!!!
***** Have you thought of addoption??? ******

I'm not a breeder and I don't date breeders!

Knowing that you don't want kids is an honest way to live life.

I have so many people pose arguments to me -- for example, who will take care of you when you are older -- and I LMAO at such idiocy. Why do people think that having kids will guarantee they will be around for you (at any age)?

Kids are not an accessory if you choose to have them. They are people, and it takes a special type of person to be responsible for raising and caring for another life. I am not that girl! I'd rather go to school (forever it seems), have a career, and travel. I have a different idea of what life should be rather than procreating.

Kudos to you and good luck in your search.

hookers

Hi Jane. I don't mean to beat a dead horse but I feel our conversation is to my benefit in getting my thoughts out so others can get to know me, so I'll respond further to simply elaborate and not with any ill intent. This is, of course, an important topic.




Well, Jane the fact is there are no guarantees. I may emphasize the negative only because it's the negative we have to prepare for! If someone surprised you with a million dollars it is most probable that it will not affect you negatively, so there are no need for contingency plans. We all know what we'd do with that money. For those that love kids, a huge some of money can be seen as comparable and if that child is born healthy, it's worth more than anything.



Yes, I focused on the word demanding since, in my perception, it screams of selfishness (we all are in our own way) and the fact that that word appeared first and privilege last. I think that's telling of you. I think you may have a Pollyanna attitude and may over emphasize the positive. Some children ARE born sick, but this isn't my main concern in not having children. I simply can't deal with the healthy child either!

On my mother's side she has a large family and I've been surrounded with children. When I was living with my very soon to be ex-wife her brother who has a 3 yr. old, a one year old and a newborn lived with us. I couldn't deal with the kids screaming and crying in the middle of the night especially when I have work the next day! Maybe I'm selfish in that I don't want to compete with a child for attention because once a woman has a child it generally appears that the child comes before anything else. The wife becomes a mother and intimacy diminishes and understandably so. Well, I simply don't want that! Then there are the Teenage years. Need I say more?



Ahhh, that's a good stab in the dark but not true. Since you overemphasize the positive (and that's good for you!) you gloss over my divorce. Had I had a child I'd a)be tempted to outlast the misery for the sake of the child or b) get divorced affecting the child. How is this good? The fact that the future looks bright IS because I don't have the concerns of a child! lol

Also keep in mind, this isn't my first relationship! With My current ex the relationship lasted 9 years; before that I had a 2 yr. relationship and before that a 6 yr relationship. I lived with all the women. The two yr. relationship ended because, among other issues, I didn't want children. In the six yr. relationship we didn't have children and the same with my last relationship. I think the divorce has little or nothing to do with my attitude towards children.

All my friends have children and even the ones that wanted children will quickly relent on how difficult it is especially in these hard economic times. I just have my own mouth to feed and my decision will not affect a child of my own.

I have two close friends who are in miserable relationships strictly because of the children. How is this good? Let's not forget that an overwhelming number of marriages end in divorce! So, the odds prove that relationships generally don't last. Why put a child through this? What if I had kids in all the relationships I've mentioned? Just based on the facts, I'll again accuse you of having a Pollyanna attitude; but, if this works for you then good luck and godspeed!

The ex I was with for two yrs. got her wish - she had twins! Her child birth was so traumatic and bloody that she is left with internal vaginal scarring that now makes sex incredibly painful for her. You can't make this stuff up! lol Her current boyfriend has since backed out of marriage, although they remain together for the sake of the children and they no longer have sex. I'm sorry, but I'm just too young to go without sex 'forever'.



The point that I made previously still stands. The Queen is not an average person and I'd still say she has no guarantee at what happens at her death but I will concede that it is most probable that she will have the people around her that she wants.

Like I said, It's not my intent to change minds but I feel that both marriage and kids are overrated and have been pushed upon us through society. We simply don't live in a day and age where relationships last. Then to tie ones financial future to a fleeting partner seems outright irresponsible! How much more worse is it to involve children!

I'm firm in my stance and feel that I've allowed logic to follow to it's conclusion: children and marriage are a tremendous risk, but some people do win lottery, right?

Thanks for reading.

A woman has a choice whether or not she wants to have children.

Some women are unable to have children for whatever reason.

I love children, but I do not plan on having any of my own.

If I meet someone who can accept this, that's fine. If they can't, I

will be fine on my own.

In the words of Charlie Brown: 'Oh Good Grief!!!'

there are women without kids

lol. I'm just getting my thoughts out! Trying to be real as possible.

Don't assume that it was directed to you... did I quote something you posted?