I have started this as an offshoot of the “Evidence of a designer” thread because of the difference in perspective. That other thread addresses only the option of a single designer, whereas I would like to address the option of multiple co-designers.

The universe is composed of matter/energy, which we are able to control.

And evidence also shows that we can control portions of the universe through consciousness alone.

The gross empirical evidence of that is demonstrated in the simple fact that we can control our bodies.

But there is also scientific evidence (PEAR) showing that our control of the functioning of the universe is not restricted to hands-on, physical means. It is possible to affect changes in the physical universe external to our bodies through no known physical means.

Thus, I consider it to be proven that there is design at work in the universe and that the universe cannot be entirely random/happenstance/probabilistic.

<diving into a foxhole to duck and cover>

...With you 100%...

I also concur. There has to be more going on than just random chance allows for. Also, Occam's Razor applies.

no evidence, much less a scientific theory, that i know of that supports the notion of designer, designers, designee or design. as far as what's been proven, well i'll just go with both einstein and hawkings and say that nothing can ever really be proven.

I concur.

Just the same, why argue with zombies who believe they are random happenstance accidents?

Especially if they seem to be bent on believing that.

Who cares?

What a waste of time even talking with them.

I was going to respond to a post in "designer thread" but then I realized that it is indeed like talking to zombies. The so-called "logic" given for their arguments is truly lame. In the last post I was told to speak in "language" instead of mathematics.

Mathematics is a language! Moreover, every mathematical statement can be translated into English. Although that might take quite a bit of words especially for someone who isn't educated in math. Still, mathematics is every bit as much of a language as English is. In fact, it's actually a sub-set of English.

Anything that can be stated in mathematics, can be translated into English text. However, there are many things in English that cannot be translated into mathematics, for example the sentence, "I love you" cannot be translated into mathematics. (although I'm sure that some mathematicians may have attempted to express this emotion via mathamtical symbols. )

In any case, it never ceases to amaze me how some people will distort and contort logic so horrifically just to support an idea that they are a random accident.

Of all the concepts in this universe to become passionately attached to, that has to be the lamest of them all.

"I'm a passionate random accident!"

This reminds me of someone I once saw taking LSD in the 60's before the ambulance came and took him away to the emergency room.

1 + 1 = love

Negative. Because it does not take 2 to love. 1 can love alone.

0 + 1 = loving yourself
1 + 1 = loving another person
1 + 1 + 1 = menage' a trois
1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = a party
1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = an orgy
etc...

I do think that there are designers, plural. This job is too big for one anything, just look around.

...man's first misconception is himself,and in thinking that he is smart enough to figure it out in the first place..and if he were right how would he know any ways...speculation and belief in what ..what he thinks he knows..when in reality he could be so far off from the truth..he wouldn't know it...
..to me it seems like an endless subject where those will produce "their" facts to back it up ..i guess if it works for them ..fine..but for me ..for those who claim to have figured it out..might as well be blowing smoke out of their assss...and that's my belief...

So what do you propose we do? Just accept what you perceive as our limitations and not try to figure it out?

of course people will sneer and jeer

but my own personal belief is that there IS a plan and it unfolds accordingly

and if we were to see the plan laid out before us we would understand it no more than a ant understands a nuclear submarine

so day by day I live in peace and contentment that everything is as it should be

I just think that the simple fact that we do design things is what makes us designers.

A designer is one who designs.
We design.
Therefore we are designers.

And what is it we design if not (at least part of) the universe?

Therefore, we design the universe.

Pretty simple.

First let me say that I acknowledge and respect your belief.

Now as to this statementPersonally, I think the exact opposite. I think "self" is the one-and-only concept that must be true if anything else is to have any meaning or relevance at all.

Yep, we are the designers..

I am an artist. If someone came up to me and stated that in this world there is no evidence of artist's or art I might be insulted, but I would more than likely just laugh out loud at the person who made that claim.

I see lots of designs in nature, and in the world of humans.

There be designers here and forever.

Mankind is the only creature here that IS "smart enough to figure it out."

(Unless, he has low self esteem about his(and mankind's) own capabilities, and simply gives up trying.)

I don't think anyone is claiming to have "figured it out." But I think that WE are at least on the right track.

Science has its place. It observes what we have created. This is equivalent to God looking at his creation and saying "It is good."

There are multiple designers. The Bible even said, "Let us make man in OUR image." That image, I think, was HUMANOID. The designers, I think, were genetic engineers.

The law of cause and effect is evidence against happenstance.

Everything has cause. How can that be happenstance?

well asked. accepting anything as fact means no longer exploring the possibilities. the majority of humans believe in the "fact" that a god, deity, designer, etc., created the universe and have closed their minds to any other possibility. for them learning has stopped. they "know" it is true. they have faith in their belief. in short, they're done thinking. as regards the issue anyway. and of course the sad thing is, most believe it's so simply because they were told it's so. they never actually gave it a thought. happened to me. until at age sixteen i began to think.

where can i find this law of cause and effect? newton described the laws of motion and momentum. bornoulie's principal describes the reaction of pressure within a fluid as it accelerates. who do you attribute the law of cause and effect to? or is there actually such a law?

you're not offering the bible as evidence now are you bean? are you really?

I honestly don't know where you can find the law. LOL I don't know where they keep the laws of the universe.

The law of cause and effect I believe, states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Does that sound familiar to you?

Then there is the "Law of attraction"

It states: "Like unto itself is drawn." I don't know where they keep that law either.