I was listening to this song earlier tonight ...


Suffer

did you ever see the concrete stares of everyday?
the lunatic, the hypocrite are all lost in the fray

can't you see their lives are just like yours?
an unturned stone, an undiscovered door
leading too, the gift of hope renewed,
eternity for you,
the masses of humanity
have always had to suffer

the businessmen whose master plan
(controls the world) each day,
is blind to indications of his species
slow decay

people blow their minds
(they choose to resign),
this deformed society is part
of the design it'll never go away,
(it's in the cards that way),
the masses of humanity
will always have to suffer!





What is the purpose of suffering? Is it necessary at all?

Is the notion of suffering more a mindset than an outcome of
circumstance? Is it a projection?

What are your thoughts?

I believe there is real suffering, then there is perceived suffering...

The same as 'relative poverty', and 'absolute poverty'.

Real suffering is the outcome of circumstance...children born into
situations of abject poverty, or oppression, or war torn countries,
people and populations caught in real circumstances of suffering, of
violence, famine, disease..

Then there is the perceived suffering, where someone believes themselves
to be 'less off', or 'hard done by', where there is a perceived
persecution type syndrome, I believe that is the projection variety.

I agree with Lee.

There are the people that really do suffer due to circumstance.

And there are people that "suffer" by choice, because they can't get
enough, not as much as the neighbour has, or some even because it feels
good to them because it gets them attention.

Thank you Jess...

I had two conversations recently that make me wonder...

1. with a guy that was growing up in Serbia during the war in the 90's.
I assumed that he had suffered much ... which by my projected definition
he had ...but he did not define it that way for himself. He saw things
no boy should see and experience but he just viewed it as his
experience.

2. with a woman on a plane returning from Africa where she was digging
ditches and building mud huts. From her perspective there was great
suffering. But she said there was such joy in the people. I wonder if
they viewed their situation as suffering.

I know I would define it that way ... but my brain feels a little like a
3-rind circus tonight wondering if it is my own projection based upon my
own experience and belief systems that define something as suffering for
another.

hmmm, just pondering out loud. I think I will sleep on it....

Thank you Andrea

Certainly there is the spoiled rich version of suffering and the poverty
driven versions.

There is suffering as in physical need - shelter, food etc.

There is also emotional suffering - much of which comes from our lack of
surrender ... our holding on, our wanting to control ...

...brain is jumping around in multiple directions tonight...

There is something in that Sherrie...

My eldest son, also experienced something similar in Timor...he saw
oppression, violence, fear, and poverty, wherever he looked...until he
stopped and watched the villagers, and especially the children...he saw
joy in their play, and saw industrioousness within the villagers.


He also witnessed great pain, and physical suffering, with many wounded
through violence...real pain, real suffering...when he visited the
hospitals, and the camps, where triage was being performed.

The contrasts were huge, especially for his western eyes..

my suffering is something that enriches my relationship with
humanity...


i wouldn't let ya have it if ya paid me!!!

I think that is what is making me wonder Lee...

I make a judgment based upon my history and my own experience...it is
therefore, my projection...which, in all likelihood, may not be
recognizable if the other person were to see their situation through my
eyes and filters.

what is the purpose of suffering??? appreciation

Hi Alex

Do you think suffering is necessary on the journey to becoming more
human?

is suffering a state of mind? yes to a certain degree but a natural and
appropriate one within it's conditions.


do i suffer? not for myself but that in itself is my pain ...thus it is
my suffering.

i can say for the afrikan women and families that i visit...some 5/6000
of them...we are . we just are. happy is too strong and not correct,
sad is also not correct. exhausted and in shock is closer. pain becomes
so OVERWHELMING that we look at what we do have rather than what we
don't have.

i treated a mother in feb. who lost all of her 9children before they
reached the age of 11.... she was pregnant. she was not dwelling in her
grief but looking to a future with this new child that would validate
the deaths of her other children...so it is all not for nothing.

omg ..do i suffer...but with joy

is it necessary???


yes.

You are beautiful Alex

Another train of thought...my mother passed over from her debilitation
from cancer...many forms of it, throat, bone, in her lungs, a brain
tumour...completely overwjelmed physically by these tumours.

There were times where the physical pain was immense for her, when the
morphine relief would not 'cap' the pain, or the discomfort of slowly
drowning from the lung condition was a huge struggle for her.

Did she suffer? At times, yes...very real, her whole physiology
expressed the discomfort, the suffering.

Most times she was a force to be reckoned with, a manager of her
affairs, to the end.

Did I appreciate her suffering? No.

Was it necessary? For me yes...to have empathy, NOT sympathy, to now
relate to others, in similar situations, to relate on an intimate level?
Yes.

Personal suffering, has taught me much...and yes, I agree is necessary
to my humanity.

I feel your humanity all the way in Western Canada my Australian sister.

but you did appreciate so many things that came out of that specific
process...

you appreciated her spirit, her determination, you came to appreciate
what families do in times of crisis and death and had some more
homework in managing a family's grief and your own...

appreciation comes from suffering and is the most impotant reason we
orchestrate it into our lives...we become rich with our ability for
compassion , sympathy, empathy, selflessness....

the sooner ya figure it out the sweeter the pain....lol

I don't think there is much left for me to say.

You three said most of it already

Yes. The appreciation of all you have mentioned...the lessons from her
suffering...yes.

And yes, it has contributed to who I am today, I do appreciate, from her
suffering, came so many benefits.

Thankyou for expanding, what I could not express.

I was relating only to the moment, and not the whole
process.

Farout i hope this is not just a topic for women. Just a
moment ago humanity HAD to suffer dosent mean they always HAVE to
suffer.it does take up a fair bit of energy havin a good
time. ya all