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| Topic: Disturbing, but something we should all know | |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Fri 10/23/09 06:47 PM
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How would you feel if a larger country with more money and more military decided to invade the United States and hunt down our president, who is ultimately hanged, then steal our gold, and burn our money and replace it with notes that are little more than I.O.U's? that put us in debt? Then they destroy hospitals and schools and other structures with bombs and then bring in their own construction companies to rebuild things? Do you know that us tax payers are paying for a U.S embassy complex in Iraq that cost billions of dollars? Do you really think they EVER intend to leave that country? Not on your life.
And in 2010 our senior citizens are not going to get their 3% cost of living increase, and social security and Medicare are changing and its not for the better. Its as if they are saying that senior citizens are not worth taking care of ... they just want us to die off so they don't have to support us in our old age after taking money from us working stiffs all of our lives. So maybe this if 'off topic' but things are getting pretty disparate for senior citizens. Maybe they will start becoming suicide bombers. |
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All I am asking is this. Once he "lights a fire" into his audience of fellow atheists, and they all 'understand' then what does he propose is the next logical step? What do they do now? How will they educate the world? How do you un-indoctrinate an entire country? How do you 'educate' fanatics?
I think between my three posts I have answered your questions. I'm only pointing this out so you don't I'm ignoring your qustions. |
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RESOLUTION – what can we do to intervene, to stop these irrationally violent acts? Here is my opinion and how I support it. OPINION: At this point, the most powerful nations in the world have a vastly different view of growth than ever before in history. These nations are no longer seeking to colonize or even to cease other lands by force. There is simply too much at stake for this kind of warfare. However, this is not the case in the middle east. They struggle over land for religious reasons, just as early Europe did for centuries. From the violent warring conflicts of religious ideologies and the desire to rule from a singular religious point of view irrational acts of violence emerge, one such act is the suicide bomber. In my opinion these countries need to be absolved of their religious dictatorships and freedom for the citizens of these states is of utmost importance to relieve these conflicts and the violence. MY SUPPORTTING EVIDENCE: 1. The history of suicide bombings as outlined by Dr. Andy and the psychology surrounding the violence of state dictated religions. 2. The social psychology I have learned pertaining to cognitive dissonance, authority, culture, and our reactions when placed into situations that challenge our beliefs. 3. What I know about the culture of the Japanese and why I believe there is little difference between the Kamikaze pilots and the suicide bombers 4. What I have learned about the history of developing countries and what I see in the world. This empirical evidence suggests that when people are free to believe as they wish, and feel they are properly represented within their governments and its laws, they are less likely to be manipulated to the point of extreme violence. Notice I have not specifically given an opinion on whether evolution provides a genetic predisposition for violence – however, I do submit to you that psychological state is “naturally” more inclined to allow our need to be sociable when our ‘beliefs’ are truly individual and not so much dictated by group indoctrination. This need for sociability IS a product of natural selection. The US and NATO are still evil and are still occupying other nations such as Iraq and Afghanistan . It is just beyond me that they are doing this in front of all the world in 2009 !!!. Can you connect the dots for me here as in what is the relationship between my post which you have quoted and your reply? |
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How would you feel if a larger country with more money and more military decided to invade the United States and hunt down our president, who is ultimately hanged, then steal our gold, and burn our money and replace it with notes that are little more than I.O.U's? that put us in debt? Then they destroy hospitals and schools and other structures with bombs and then bring in their own construction companies to rebuild things? Do you know that us tax payers are paying for a U.S embassy complex in Iraq that cost billions of dollars? Do you really think they EVER intend to leave that country? Not on your life. And in 2010 our senior citizens are not going to get their 3% cost of living increase, and social security and Medicare are changing and its not for the better. Its as if they are saying that senior citizens are not worth taking care of ... they just want us to die off so they don't have to support us in our old age after taking money from us working stiffs all of our lives. So maybe this if 'off topic' but things are getting pretty disparate for senior citizens. Maybe they will start becoming suicide bombers. We Have U.S. Embassy's all over the world - what's your point? |
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At this time the most powerful nations.........these nations are no longer seeking....etc !!!.
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Edited by
tohyup
on
Fri 10/23/09 06:58 PM
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Double post .
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Fri 10/23/09 07:08 PM
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Here is my opinion and how I support it.
OPINION: At this point, the most powerful nations in the world have a vastly different view of growth than ever before in history. These nations are no longer seeking to colonize or even to cease other lands by force. There is simply too much at stake for this kind of warfare. However, this is not the case in the middle east. They struggle over land for religious reasons, just as early Europe did for centuries. From the violent warring conflicts of religious ideologies and the desire to rule from a singular religious point of view irrational acts of violence emerge, one such act is the suicide bomber. In my opinion these countries need to be absolved of their religious dictatorships and freedom for the citizens of these states is of utmost importance to relieve these conflicts and the violence. Is this your solution above? Do you consider Israel a dictatorship? (I do.) What other countries are you talking about? You did not name any. Iraq? Iran? Are you advocating war on "religiously" ruled countries only? So are you saying that only "religious" dictatorships should be absolved? Is Israel considered a 'religious' dictatorship? (I think it is more of a total atheist dictatorship.) Can you be a tad bit more specific? We may need to know who to drop the bombs on. Also, do you have any idea why the Temple Mount is so all fired important?? (To Israel too.) Its because that is where the gods will return. That is where "Jesus" is supposed to return. So why would a bunch of atheists (Israel) be interested in that? What do they know that we don't know? |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Fri 10/23/09 07:11 PM
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How would you feel if a larger country with more money and more military decided to invade the United States and hunt down our president, who is ultimately hanged, then steal our gold, and burn our money and replace it with notes that are little more than I.O.U's? that put us in debt? Then they destroy hospitals and schools and other structures with bombs and then bring in their own construction companies to rebuild things? Do you know that us tax payers are paying for a U.S embassy complex in Iraq that cost billions of dollars? Do you really think they EVER intend to leave that country? Not on your life. And in 2010 our senior citizens are not going to get their 3% cost of living increase, and social security and Medicare are changing and its not for the better. Its as if they are saying that senior citizens are not worth taking care of ... they just want us to die off so they don't have to support us in our old age after taking money from us working stiffs all of our lives. So maybe this if 'off topic' but things are getting pretty disparate for senior citizens. Maybe they will start becoming suicide bombers. We Have U.S. Embassy's all over the world - what's your point? My point is all the while they were claiming that we were only in Iraq 'temporarily' they were spending billions on a huge and permanent embassy. One that supports military troops. The place is massive. That does NOT look temporary to me. |
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Yikes, I missed a lot of information on this thread in the past 24 hours.
I do not intend to bash Atheism - to the contrary, I believe that Dr. Thompson just omitted the core reason for the connection between evolution of a species and violent tendencies. Religious persecution and intolerance of other cultures which is directly linked to the most primal levels of evolution - it's just the alpha complex. It's a breakdown between ego and id where all creatures that reproduce with a mate need to show dominance and force the rest of the pack to conform. This explains both the Christian crusades and the Atheist need to try and disprove the existence of a god or gods. Atheism has become a religion in it's own rights by declaring that humans are themselves the only god and that religion is a blasphemous affront to their right to "not believe". In striving so hard to spread their "gospel", of the non-existence of god and trying to recruit followers - they have in essence become a religious institution only without enjoying the tax exemptions. I personally an neither for religion or against atheism, I am just a casual viewer observing what will be a future full of failure for both sides trying to eradicate the other. |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Fri 10/23/09 08:21 PM
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There seems to be some disagreement about the differenced between the WWII Kamikazy pilots and the more current day suicide bombers. There is little difference, in fact there are much more similarities than anyone has recognized. First, the culture of the Japanese, most especially in the early 1900’s is much like that of many of the middle eastern states. First of all, while there are several religions at work within the Japanese state, there is a general acceptance that these religions overlap in all the areas required to create a singular cultural ideology. This was not a mistake, this was an evolution forced by the rulers for many centuries. Like the Islamic state mentioned in my last post, the Japanese hold their beliefs in common with the state. This means the state dictates the nature of culture and that culture become imbedded in the religions. Unless you have some knowledge about the culture at that time and how intricately woven the philosophies of all belief systems combine this may be difficult to envision as equivalent to the Islamic states. So you will have to take my word or do your own research. At any rate, when a group of Japanese soldiers is “asked” to join a special task force – there probably are not many who do not volunteer. You never question authority, their authority is accepted, and the honor of your family is always on your shoulders, so you volunteer. When the assignment is laid out before you and it is to be a Kamikaze, everything inside you may scream, NO, WHY? Cognitive dissonance. You CANNOT back out, your family honor and its future security depends on your actions and your actions MUST be what authority dictates. So you resolve your dissonance through irrational thought. It is better to die to save may families honor (upholding my dually indoctrinated beliefs – religious and state) than to live in shame. This is not desperation, this is a DIRECT result of psychological manipulation which can only occur when there are fanatical beliefs at the core of the individual. Although women suicide bombers tend to be rare (as the cultures which create the bombers) are male dominated and women are not equals so are not asked AS EQUALS to participate. Rather their indoctrination leads them to become suicide bombers OUT OF DESPERATION. This is also a point well documented and well covered in Dr. Andy’s lecture. John proctor, dies so that his family will not carry the shame of being labeled witches. Ill try to finish my notes tomorrow, so we can have a direct outline. |
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In my opinion these countries need to be absolved of their religious dictatorships and freedom for the citizens of these states is of utmost importance to relieve these conflicts and the violence.
Can you be a tad bit more specific? We may need to know who to drop the bombs on.
I was not specifically advocating for war as an option. In fact it was not my intention to get into any specifics of how dethroning governments and re-creating new ones could be facilitated. It is just my opinion that basic human rights (freedoms and equality)for all poeple would alleviate a great deal of the kind of violence Dr. Andy is referring to. Not to mention that dealing peacefully with global trade is much easier without religious alliances to contend with. |
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Edited by
wux
on
Fri 10/23/09 10:56 PM
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It is just my opinion that basic human rights (freedoms and equality)for all poeple would alleviate a great deal of the kind of violence Dr. Andy is referring to. Not to mention that dealing peacefully with global trade is much easier without religious alliances to contend with. I believe you make a lot of sense with this. The only problem is that if we allow human rights, then we allow other state's right to self-determination, even if their leadership is not democratically elected. They may abuse human rights, but so do we in the torture chambers of many a forgotten and tormented soul and -- manily -- body. All males. I agree that diversity is a headache, but I disagree with homogenization of the globe's pupulation exactly due to the inhumanness of ways that it can be achieved if we set a reasonable deadline, like our lifetimes. This is the problem: If we let the nature of human nature take its natural course, we'll need to wait generations, literally centuries, for the differences to disappear. If we want to speed up the process, we can only hope to do that with armed forces, and it won't work anyway. Which direction would you rather pursue? Also, if we wait the necessary centuries to let natural equalization do its job, then we also risk the development of new risks, new differeces, which is a very real risk of very real differences. After all, Humanity had a hundred thousand years to equalize, and instead of achieving that, we're getting more and more diverse and more compex in the diversity, in ideology, in religion, in forms of government, in what we do for fun. There is no quickfix and there is no slow fix. Therefor the US should concentrate on looking pretty to other nations. Aside from that, the US invasion of countries in the middle East, happened on ideological grounds (i.e. to spread democracy and human rights, or if you look at the last Iraq war, spreading of and believing lies. Hey, it's a form of ideology). But when you look at all wars in recent (100 years back, approx.) times, they were all started on ideological reasons, and for the WRONG ideological reasons. Viet Nam -- stop the threat of spread of communism. Wrong because it pitted Viet Namese against Viet Namese. WWII - Hitler and his very wrong idealistic world view. Nicaragua -- stop commies. Korea - stop commies, make brother the biggest enemy of his brother (North vs. South Korea). You'll notice that after the wars ended, the loser side was always condemned for the ideology they fought for. It's not so much the losers that were condemned (look at the Marshall Plan) but their ideologies. And since America lost the war in Viet Nam, and since America was condemned by many Americans themselves as that war raged, we've seen that America has been involved in more and more unjust wars, it has fought dirtier and dirtier fights, it has abused more and more human rights, and, well, it just made the whole world want to puke and bazooka-barf at all and any American citizens. (Well said, and I don't mind saying so myelf.) |
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Edited by
firedude1971
on
Fri 10/23/09 10:55 PM
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In my opinion these countries need to be absolved of their religious dictatorships and freedom for the citizens of these states is of utmost importance to relieve these conflicts and the violence.
Can you be a tad bit more specific? We may need to know who to drop the bombs on.
I was not specifically advocating for war as an option. In fact it was not my intention to get into any specifics of how dethroning governments and re-creating new ones could be facilitated. It is just my opinion that basic human rights (freedoms and equality)for all poeple would alleviate a great deal of the kind of violence Dr. Andy is referring to. Not to mention that dealing peacefully with global trade is much easier without religious alliances to contend with. The only problem I see is in the majority of these countries, there are so many different sects of the same religion and so many sub-governments and feudal warlords, even if you take out the government - who are you going to replace them with that will manage to bring all of the subcultures together? When their societies have been immersed deeply in religion and ritual for thousands of years before America existed, why would they want to even consider adopting any of the moral, ethical or legal ideals of a fledgling nation that has had very little success handling their own problems? Could it be that the constant outside interference from other "free", nations is whats causing the constant global conflict? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash the United States. Lets just look at the liberation track record and wonder why no one has learned the lesson yet... Cuba - Bay of Pigs Vietnam North Korea (and almost China if McArthur didn't have his butt handed to him) Iraq parts 1 and 2 If a nation is dysfunctional and the citizens are abused a civil war isn't far away, if another country tries to force their ideals on the citizens - they band together to repel the antagonist which is exactly what we're seeing in Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Palestine and Afghanistan. |
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Edited by
JaneStar1
on
Sat 10/24/09 01:35 AM
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____A NOT-TO-BE-OVERLOOKED FACTS_____
(-----a little reminder of Political Economy--------) ...something we should really all be aware of ... * * * US Military is the greatest employer in the world!!! It relieves the economy off of millions of Unemployment Insurance claimants (who would otherwise bilk the government off of millions of dollars...) It feeds off the military action -- enemies around the world are the best indirect custommers! Besides, Military action keeps the problem of Overpopulation under control -- at either sideof the action! * * * Overproduction of weapons is hurting the economy as a whole!Peaceful times are contre-productive to the military industry. With so much capital invested in producing stockpiles of weapons, it would be crazy wasting all that potential wealth!!! Unfortunately, Russians threw the worst possible punch -- they dissolved the so-called Socialist Camp: one of the greatest of enemies has lost the Cold War! And now, they won't intervien even if the US would attack Viet Nam or Korea (even Cuba) -- and without the Soviets' support, those countries represent no challenge to the US military might! Middle Eastern countries, on the other hand, represent quite an interest -- mainly because of the access to Oil. US needs cheep oil to keep the automobiles running, thus continuing car production -- making more profits for the industry... (despite the fact there already are far better modes of transportation -- both, ecologically and economically!) Though, those are only temporary remedies... The olanet is heading towards a complete natural resources exhaustion -- another 2-3 decades! Hopefully, Space exploration will soon bear some fruits that will reduce our dependancy upon the capital! |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 10/24/09 01:41 AM
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In my opinion these countries need to be absolved of their religious dictatorships and freedom for the citizens of these states is of utmost importance to relieve these conflicts and the violence.
Can you be a tad bit more specific? We may need to know who to drop the bombs on.
I was not specifically advocating for war as an option. In fact it was not my intention to get into any specifics of how dethroning governments and re-creating new ones could be facilitated. It is just my opinion that basic human rights (freedoms and equality)for all poeple would alleviate a great deal of the kind of violence Dr. Andy is referring to. Not to mention that dealing peacefully with global trade is much easier without religious alliances to contend with. I know, I was just funnin' with you.   
Yes I think that respecting others and allowing them to live their lives as free individuals with human rights would do a lot towards alleviation hopelessness and suicide bombing. Unfortunately these large powerful countries think they need to invade these little ones and forcibly change their backwards way of life via war because they just don't want to listen to reason. So that leads to them fighting back with stick, stones and suicide bombers. My specific question is more personal. What would the lecturer hope to encourage his audience to actually DO themselves personally? Its one thing to have the 'information' and another thing to know what to do with it. Sometimes I hear 'information' and I just think to myself, "So?" What do you want me to do about it? I'm not sure if I can be much help in solving the situation and if I could, what exactly would be my personal roll in it? It all comes down to the individual in the end. |
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Atheism has become a religion in it's own rights by declaring that humans are themselves the only god and that religion is a blasphemous affront to their right to "not believe".
Firedude, I believe I understand your overall viewpoint here, and if so, I agree with it wholeheartedly; this is somewhat evidenced by my previous post on this topic. Yet, I take serious issue with your phrasing: though there are individuals, groups of individuals, and chartered organizations which are identify as 'atheist' which are engaged in exactly what you describe, "atheism" itself in no way shape or form is 'becoming a religion'. I know this doesn't change your point - and as I understand it, I agree with your point. I would just prefer the phrase "some atheist organizations" to "atheism". In striving so hard to spread their "gospel", of the non-existence of god and trying to recruit followers - they have in essence become a religious institution only without enjoying the tax exemptions.
I absolutely agree, with respect to some atheist organizations and people. |
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I finally downloaded and partly watched (mostly listened) to the video.
Bushido, I agree, this was an excellent presentation. It was crafted from a particular point of view, for a particular purpose, and was (presumably deliberately) over-simplified and generalized, but was fairly dense with information and ideas that are worthy of thought. Thanks for posting this link. Over my life I have, through watching and listening to others, and examining myself, formed some ideas about how and why people embrace religion; it was interesting to hear a few of those very same ideas delivered in short summary form, back to back. He didn't even touch on the effects of some esoteric religious practices that lead to altered states of mind, mood, or sensory experience. Of course we must consider the 'source' and the source's bias; but the earlier part of this thread seemed stuffed with an unfortunate prejudice against the message, based on prejudice against the messenger. |
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One of the things I found very interesting to consider, as I listened to part of his lecture, was that an intelligent non-denominational Christian might very well agree with part of the lecture. Not all anti-religious people are anti-theism. Though I consider non-denominational Christianity to be 'religious' in nature, I have found them to be far less so than, say, Catholics, and to have a healthy dose of anti-religious sentiment.
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I must say that this thread has developed in some very interesting ways...
Kudos to those who have attempted to remove personal emotional bias. Consciously suppressing my own tendency to 'feel' as though I need to get beneath the surface, I have refrained in commenting. 
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Firedude,
Your idea related to the “alpha” domination that exists in other animals might actually fit in with part of Dr. Andy’s lecture. Part of the problem Dr. Andy faced was that women are less likely to exhibit violent actions. This makes sense if women have always been dominated by men and it’s likely they have been. Overall physical characteristics would indicate that men have always been larger and stronger within the species. Also prevalent is the fact that women bear and raise the children, so they are not as mobile as men either. So in many ways the “alpha” concept may have deeply contributed to the greater recessive quality of feminine violence. |
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