This I don't believe. But rather than argue, I wish to watch freedom of religion war with freedom of speech.

I agree. It use to not be the way it is now. It changed along the way somewhere. It DOES need to go back to the way it should be.

This is not about a belief in heaven and hell. If you had really read what I wrote you would have seen that it is about a belief in what comes after life and how one responds to that belief in this life.

Good point... I don't push belief on anyone but I can see what you're saying... Even going to jail used to be somewhat of a deterent but now they get out early, they use excuses to get off... Maybe they had something back in the day when they'd lock people up in those wooden contraptions in front of the whole town for people to walk by and see or jeer or throw tomatoes....

Dragoness/Chrissy I get what you're saying... I watch something win out all the time, I look at some of my family and think "wtf" where'd you learn to act like that? It's not for me to say, all I can do is stay away if I don't agree... I have a son that I wonder where he learned to do some of the stuff he does b/c I specifically raised him the opposite.. I don't want to blame his dad's genes but I often wonder what the heLl happened...

But the religious can do what they want to do in the name of "'the devil made me do it" and ask for forgiveness and will still enter the kingdom of heaven, correct?

It's never our fault (for most people) it's always somebody else fault, my ex, those dam politicians, the weather,God told me to and so on.

The majority of people live their life blaming others instead of looking in the mirror, if you can't see yourself how can you see others.

Everybody we know an encounter will influence us but we are the one that as the last say in what we choose to do, say or be. I had a bad childhood but never will I blame these events to justify what I do today. I chose the path I am on and I am the only one responsible for it, unless you have a gun to your head you always have choices.

Those who believe in Karma try to take personal responsibility for their actions in this time so that their belief (in reincarnation) will lead them into betterment, next time. Not religious wars.
This is not about Christian or non Christian beliefs. It is about personal responsibility.

I hold myself responsible for myself but it took alot of personal growth to get here.

I do agree that people will use anything they can to JUSTIFY their actions. Blame is top on the list.

It comes down to you made the choice and the consequences are now yours to bear.

I hit that person........because they pissed me off.


I cut off the old lady in line........because I am in a hurry.



I ran that stop light..........because I am in a hurry.



Once you get to the "because" you are justifying your wrong doing.

A lot of people don't believe in anything except "themselves" so karma won't affect them in this life...

I apologise if you have been offended that was certainly not my intent, but even the Christian belief has within its tenets, the acceptance of personal responsibility. Just because you see aChristian saying or doing something that you consider un Christian does not mean that they are necessarily evil, it just means that they are human.
My point is that a moral imperative is a fair guide for living a moral, responsible, personally accountable style of life.

I believe in a form of karma but in my form I will recieve back any negativity, untruths, etc... that I put out there shortly after I do it. So I don't do it. I beleive in an energy we emit and it connects us all. The hate will bring hatred back to us. The intentional pain we cause will bring intentional pain back to us. For every action there is a reaction.

I would never impose this onto others though. It is for me, to know I live right.

..or it does effect them, except they interpret it in a different way

I accept that your belief system allows for personal responsibility which is the point I was somewhat ineffectually trying to make. The "moral imperative" that George Orwell alluded to, although atheistic,was aimed at the generation of the 1940's-50's, that he saw as being essentially lost because their belief system somehow became seriously flawed resulting in a loss of personal and thence social responsibility.

I wasn't offended.

Morality is personal. Laws of the land govern everyone.

Self responsibility is still a self discovery of self enlightenment. It cannot be imposed on others by others.

The moral imperative to personal responsibility can still be taught, the ears of the hearer may be blocked but that does not detract from the imperative itself.

I think the evolution of humans psyche has allowed it to get past a need for a societal formed morality to guide them to be the best they can be.
Some still feel this need granted but I think it is a time gone by now.
Self discovery is becoming more important than the community.
Which is a good thing. People who understand themselves better can bring better people to the community

Self discovery.
The greatest need that man has is to belong to the commonwealth. All man needs to belong. That is the guiding principle
of why we are. We need to be together. We need to belong. All that remains is to formulate the commonwealth we belong in and to. If one were to form a standard of being that is ouside of the societal norm then the evolution of the human psyche is truely finished. But as you pointed out earlier in this discussion morality is a personal issue. The "moral imperative " is really to do with how one interacts within ones commonwealth of belonging. That takes personal accountability for being a member of that commonwealth.

And on that note I must go to bed. It is nearly eleven oclock pm here in London and work in the morning demands that I get my beauty sleep. Good night.

Good night.

I will answer this for you to review tomorrow then.

Belonging.

The great feeling of inclusion.

Depending on this concept is a very precarious activity. You can be crushed or worse persecuted if you think you belong and others decide you do not. Independence is key to stopping yourself from being put out when this happens. Self is independence. IE self discovery is of utter importance.


To find yourself and what makes yourself a better, happier, more loving, more responsible person, etc... is much more reliable to you and your survival than depending on belonging.

Now do we naturally belong in the sense of we are similar to, react with, engage, etc... yes.

As with all things balance is key here.

How do you teach another accountability?


Is it by example?

Is it by opening them up to internal barometers? Empathy?


One best be exemplary at walking their own talk, before attempting to educate others on how to be accountable.....hipocrasy (sp?) Hipo-crazy? (hahaha!) is the worst mirror to be held up..