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Topic: Does Israel's nukes count?
s1owhand's photo
Fri 10/02/09 03:37 AM
America in the World: Sandy Berger - A Security Agenda for the Next President

http://www.archive.org/details/SEEPROGRESS-AmericaInTheWorldSandyBergerASecurityAgendaForTheNex216

from the Wiki...

"The Learning Channel documentary Doomsday: "On The Brink" illustrated 40 years of U.S. and Soviet nuclear weapons accidents. Even the 1995 Norwegian rocket incident demonstrated a potential scenario in which Russian democratization and military downsizing at the end of the Cold War did not eliminate the danger of accidental nuclear war through command and control errors. After asking: might a future Russian ruler or renegade Russian general be tempted to use nuclear weapons to make foreign policy? the documentary writers revealed a greater danger of Russian security over its nuclear stocks, but especially the ultimate danger of human nature to want the ultimate weapon of mass destruction to exercise political and military power. Future world leaders might not understand how close the Soviets, Russians, and Americans were to doomsday, how easy it all seemed because apocalypse was avoided for a mere 40 years between rivals, politicians not terrorists, who loved their children and did not want to die, against 30,000 years of human prehistory. History and military experts agree that proliferation can be slowed, but never stopped (technology cannot be uninvented).

Proliferation begets proliferation

Proliferation begets proliferation is a concept described by Scott Sagan in his article, Why Do States Build Nuclear Weapons? This concept can be described as a strategic chain reaction. If one state produces a nuclear weapon it creates almost a domino effect within the region. States in the region will seek to acquire nuclear weapons to balance or eliminate the security threat. Sagan describes this reaction best in his article when he states, “Every time one state develops nuclear weapons to balance against its main rival, it also creates a nuclear threat to another region, which then has to initiate its own nuclear weapons program to maintain its national security” (Sagan, pg. 70). Going back through history we can see how this has taken place. When the United States demonstrated that it had nuclear power capabilities after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Russians started to develop their program in preparation for the Cold War. With the Russian military buildup, France and Great Britain perceived this as a security threat and therefore they pursued nuclear weapons (Sagan, pg 71)."

cashu's photo
Fri 10/02/09 12:16 PM


Slowhand , you're really ignorant when it comes to this subject.
Surrounded by countries who want to destroy them? Why haven't they attacked? Surely they're not scared that they'll get nuked. And you keep bringing up cafe bombings. Have you been to Israel ever? there are checkpoints at the border that makes the Mexican border look disgraceful.
Mossad's already been busted for committing bombings posing as palestinians. If anyone got across the border, it's because an IDF soldier was bought off or let them in. This is fact.


* 1948 War of Independence (November 1947 - July 1949), that started by a 6 months of civil war between Jewish and Arab militias at the end of the British Mandate of Palestine and that turned into a regular war after the declaration of independence of Israel and the intervention of several Arab armies. In its conclusion, a set of agreements were signed between Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria called the 1949 Armistice Agreements which established the armistice lines between Israel and the West Bank, also known as the Green Line.

* Six-Day War (June 1967) - fought between Israel and Arab neighbors Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. The nations of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Algeria also contributed troops and arms to the Arab forces. Following the war the territory held by Israel expanded significantly ("The Purple Line") : The West Bank, Golan Heights and Sinai were occupied from Jordan, Syria and Egypt, respectively.

* War of Attrition (1968-1970) - a limited war fought between the Israeli military and forces of the Egyptian Republic, the USSR and the Palestine Liberation Organization from 1967 to 1970. It was initiated by the Egyptians as a way of recapturing the Sinai from the Israelis, who had been in control of the territory since the mid-1967 Six-Day War. The hostilities ended with a ceasefire signed between the countries in 1970 with frontiers remaining in the same place as when the war began.

* Yom Kippur War (October 1973) - fought from October 6 to October 26, 1973 by a coalition of Arab states led by Egypt and Syria against Israel as a way of recapturing part of the territories which they lost to the Israelis back in the Six-Day War. The war began with a surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria on the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur. Egypt and Syria crossed the cease-fire lines in the Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been captured by Israel in 1967 during the Six-Day War.

well keep your paper and pencil handy . those people aren't going away because some politician sold them out with fake treaties . . If Israeli's don' make peace with the legitimate owner of Palestine there are going to be many pages added to you papers here . we asked the Vietnamese after the war why they keep fighting even after we killed soooo many of them , HE TOLD US IT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS THERE HOME THAT THEY WERE FIGHTING FOR . IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHERE YOU COME FROM I CAN GIVE YOU DIRECTIONS TO AN AREA NE OF THE CASPIN OCEAN

no photo
Fri 10/02/09 12:35 PM

well keep your paper and pencil handy . those people aren't going away because some politician sold them out with fake treaties . . If Israeli's don' make peace with the legitimate owner of Palestine there are going to be many pages added to you papers here . we asked the Vietnamese after the war why they keep fighting even after we killed soooo many of them , HE TOLD US IT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS THERE HOME THAT THEY WERE FIGHTING FOR . IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHERE YOU COME FROM I CAN GIVE YOU DIRECTIONS TO AN AREA NE OF THE CASPIN OCEAN


As I remember, Hitler was just reclaiming part of Germany when he took Austria.

Just because someone claims a right to a piece of land, that doesn't make it legit. Jews have a much older claim to the land they are on. If you read and get the facts, you will find that Palestine has never existed as a country. That most of the middle east was part of the Ottoman Empire. That the UN promised to split the Mandate of Palestine 50/50 between Jews and Arabs and then gave 77% of the Mandate to the Arabs. The Jews were then given 1/2 of the 23% remaining that was supposed to be for them only. 60% of the land they were given was the uninhabitable Negev desert. After Israel declared it's independence, it was attacked by Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

AGoodGuy1026's photo
Fri 10/02/09 12:49 PM
my thoughts...

Isreal's nukes = U.S. nukes... (enough said on that?)

Iran is obviously an emerging nuclear power...

My personal opinion? It's safer for Iran to keep their nuclear material under control - rather than to ship it back and forth accross them middle east and europe to russia and france (am I the only one that thinks this is a bad idea? shipping nuclear material all over the middle east and europe - ripe to be stolen??)...

Nuclear proliferation cannot be stopped, only slowed...

It's better to change the climate (the root cause) instead of the sole policy to reduce the tools (the nukes)...

During the "cold war" - it was climate change (treaty change and mutual agreement and verifiable compliance) which led to reduction of the tools (the nukes)...

Iran is growing up... they are not going away... we must adapt, eveolve and chagne to meet this new issue...

this is only the first step. Once the nukes are developed, they will (Iran) turn their focus and resources to development of delivery systems (big rockets) and guidance systems (to hit a specific target)... then the whole world is at risk, not just middle eastern targets...

There is not easy answer, but alienating the Iranians has not worked for 30 years, we do need a new and more effective strategy.

tohyup's photo
Fri 10/02/09 02:22 PM
Everything has an easy answer .
The US, Israel and NATO are the most dangerous entities right now and their history tells you everything . Iran has no colonies and it is a sovereign nation .

cashu's photo
Sat 10/03/09 10:59 PM
Edited by cashu on Sat 10/03/09 11:03 PM

As I remember, Hitler was just reclaiming part of Germany when he took Austria.

Just because someone claims a right to a piece of land, that doesn't make it legit. Jews have a much older claim to the land they are on. If you read and get the facts, you will find that Palestine has never existed as a country. That most of the middle east was part of the Ottoman Empire. That the UN promised to split the Mandate of Palestine 50/50 between Jews and Arabs and then gave 77% of the Mandate to the Arabs. The Jews were then given 1/2 of the 23% remaining that was supposed to be for them only. 60% of the land they were given was the uninhabitable Negev desert. After Israel declared it's independence, it was attacked by Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.===============================================================

if that was what he was doing he wouldn't of lost . my books show where the land of the Gaul was and it wasn't where he was attacking most of the time .and they didn't have a country before the late 1800s . that surprised me when i learned that my grandfather was from the area where Berlin is now . and Europe is bigger today than the land of the Gaul was .... I think if a people lived on land for thousands of years they have at least a claim . I mean the Jews only claim on palestine was for 150 years . they spent more time in Sumatra and babelon greece ,Russia and other parts of Europe . and Persia and the mountains east of babelon . its only 150 years in palestine ...

cashu's photo
Sat 10/03/09 10:59 PM
Edited by cashu on Sat 10/03/09 11:06 PM

no photo
Sat 10/03/09 11:08 PM

if that was what he was doing he wouldn't of lost . my books show where the land of the Gaul was and it wasn't where he was attacking most of the time .and they didn't have a country before the late 1800s . that surprised me when i learned that my grandfather was from the area where Berlin is now . and Europe is bigger today than the land of the Gaul was .... I think if a people lived on land for thousands of years they have at least a claim . I mean the Jews only claim on palestine was for 150 years . they spent more time in Sumatra and babelon greece ,Russia and other parts of Europe . and Persia and the mountains east of babelon . its only 150 years in palestine ...


The Jews inhabited Palestine from around 1000 BC until...today. They haven't been in control the whole time, but they were for around 212 years before they were conquered by various nations. Their presence goes back far longer than the Muslim presence. I'm really not sure what you mean that they were only there for 150 years.

Quietman_2009's photo
Sat 10/03/09 11:09 PM
Austria had a defense treaty with Italy,England, and France. Just in case Germany did try to retake it

Italy, England and France broke the treaty by not helping. So the Nazi's assasinated the Austrian President and the next one turned over Austria to the Germans in fear for his life

German tanks were in Vienna the next day

and all the Jews were rounded up and shipped out to camps by then end of the week

cashu's photo
Sat 10/03/09 11:31 PM
Edited by cashu on Sat 10/03/09 11:35 PM


well keep your paper and pencil handy . those people aren't going away because some politician sold them out with fake treaties . . If Israeli's don' make peace with the legitimate owner of Palestine there are going to be many pages added to you papers here . we asked the Vietnamese after the war why they keep fighting even after we killed soooo many of them , HE TOLD US IT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS THERE HOME THAT THEY WERE FIGHTING FOR . IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHERE YOU COME FROM I CAN GIVE YOU DIRECTIONS TO AN AREA NE OF THE CASPIN OCEAN


As I remember, Hitler was just reclaiming part of Germany when he took Austria.

Just because someone claims a right to a piece of land, that doesn't make it legit. Jews have a much older claim to the land they are on. If you read and get the facts, you will find that Palestine has never existed as a country. That most of the middle east was part of the Ottoman Empire. That the UN promised to split the Mandate of Palestine 50/50 between Jews and Arabs and then gave 77% of the Mandate to the Arabs. The Jews were then given 1/2 of the 23% remaining that was supposed to be for them only. 60% of the land they were given was the uninhabitable Negev desert. After Israel declared it's independence, it was attacked by Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.


you sound like a Latin every piece of land they have ever walked over is theres forever . but lets look at it from another view . you lived there for 150 years . you lived in Sumatra 100 years , you lived with the Greeks for over 400 years you lived in Persia for 2000 years you lived in Europe for a couple thousand years and north east of the Caspian sea for 50000 years . the people who built jerusalem live there before you and allowed you to move in ( the canites ) and if the Latins hadn't run you out you would still be there . they are the Palestine's that you are killing now days . you guys returned with this idea that you would have a Jewish state so you went about shooting Arabs all over even ones who weren't shooting at anyone . now you say its all yours the ones who live with you you don't let vote or even equal citizenship in there own homes . with all that you actually think you can now have peace . i don't think so . but no matter where do you really think you have a claim to . and i know a few Arabs and a couple Persians and they are very polite .and I know a lot of Jews . and there OK to but there's no way they can win .each time the fight they lose more ,its harder and harder

cashu's photo
Sat 10/03/09 11:48 PM


if that was what he was doing he wouldn't of lost . my books show where the land of the Gaul was and it wasn't where he was attacking most of the time .and they didn't have a country before the late 1800s . that surprised me when i learned that my grandfather was from the area where Berlin is now . and Europe is bigger today than the land of the Gaul was .... I think if a people lived on land for thousands of years they have at least a claim . I mean the Jews only claim on Palestine was for 150 years . they spent more time in Sumatra and babylon Greece ,Russia and other parts of Europe . and Persia and the mountains east of babylon . its only 150 years in Palestine ...


The Jews inhabited Palestine from around 1000 BC until...today. They haven't been in control the whole time, but they were for around 212 years before they were conquered by various nations. Their presence goes back far longer than the Muslim presence. I'm really not sure what you mean that they were only there for 150 years.
you got the time line wrong . they got to palestine after escaping slavery . but there were a lot of jews who were never in slavery and didn't live in palestine but the 150 is very close to it .but during that time they lived in syria to ..your right about the muslims . sort of .. the muslim religion didn't start til around 250 ad . they didn't exist back then and neither did the palistines . they were canites then and jews . but what you have done to them is not going to be forgotten soon ..

cashu's photo
Sat 10/03/09 11:59 PM



well keep your paper and pencil handy . those people aren't going away because some politician sold them out with fake treaties . . If Israeli's don' make peace with the legitimate owner of Palestine there are going to be many pages added to you papers here . we asked the Vietnamese after the war why they keep fighting even after we killed soooo many of them , HE TOLD US IT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS THERE HOME THAT THEY WERE FIGHTING FOR . IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHERE YOU COME FROM I CAN GIVE YOU DIRECTIONS TO AN AREA NE OF THE CASPIN OCEAN


As I remember, Hitler was just reclaiming part of Germany when he took Austria.

Just because someone claims a right to a piece of land, that doesn't make it legit. Jews have a much older claim to the land they are on. If you read and get the facts, you will find that Palestine has never existed as a country. That most of the middle east was part of the Ottoman Empire. That the UN promised to split the Mandate of Palestine 50/50 between Jews and Arabs and then gave 77% of the Mandate to the Arabs. The Jews were then given 1/2 of the 23% remaining that was supposed to be for them only. 60% of the land they were given was the uninhabitable Negev desert. After Israel declared it's independence, it was attacked by Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.


you sound like a Latin every piece of land they have ever walked over is theres forever . but lets look at it from another view . you lived there for 150 years . you lived in Sumatra 100 years , you lived with the Greeks for over 400 years you lived in Persia for 2000 years you lived in Europe for a couple thousand years and north east of the Caspian sea for 50000 years . the people who built jerusalem live there before you and allowed you to move in ( the canites ) and if the Latins hadn't run you out you would still be there . they are the Palestine's that you are killing now days . you guys returned with this idea that you would have a Jewish state so you went about shooting Arabs all over even ones who weren't shooting at anyone . now you say its all yours the ones who live with you you don't let vote or even equal citizenship in there own homes . with all that you actually think you can now have peace . i don't think so . but no matter where do you really think you have a claim to . and i know a few Arabs and a couple Persians and they are very polite .and I know a lot of Jews . and there OK to but there's no way they can win .each time the fight they lose more ,its harder and harder.
i,ll look up that time line so i can be right . the books i use as a ref. are university 301 classes books . and not old . very up to date in info. but you have another 50 sence the return . that would bring you up to 200 but thats still not much .

no photo
Sun 10/04/09 12:03 AM
Edited by Spidercmb on Sun 10/04/09 12:05 AM

you got the time line wrong . they got to palestine after escaping slavery . but there were a lot of jews who were never in slavery and didn't live in palestine but the 150 is very close to it .but during that time they lived in syria to ..your right about the muslims . sort of .. the muslim religion didn't start til around 250 ad . they didn't exist back then and neither did the palistines . they were canites then and jews . but what you have done to them is not going to be forgotten soon ..


The Israelites arrived in Palestine around 1000 BC. That's the accepted time line by archeologists.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm#The%20Jewish%20Kingdoms

The archeological record indicates that the Jewish people evolved out of native Cana'anite peoples and invading tribes. Some time between about 1800 and 1500 B.C., it is thought that a Semitic people called Hebrews (hapiru) left Mesopotamia and settled in Canaan. Canaan was settled by different tribes including Semitic peoples, Hittites, and later Philistines, peoples of the sea who are thought to have arrived from Mycenae, or to be part of the ancient Greek peoples that also settled Mycenae.

According to the Bible, Moses led the Israelites, or a portion of them, out of Egypt. Under Joshua, they conquered the tribes and city states of Canaan. Based on biblical traditions, it is estimated that king David conquered Jerusalem about 1000 B.C. and established an Israelite kingdom over much of Canaan including parts of Transjordan. The kingdom was divided into Judea in the south and Israel in the north following the death of David's son, Solomon. Jerusalem remained the center of Jewish sovereignty and of Jewish worship whenever the Jews exercised sovereignty over the country in the subsequent period, up to the Jewish revolt in 133 AD.

The Assyrians conquered Israel in 722 or 721 B.C. The Babylonians conquered Judah around 586 B.C. They destroyed Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem, and exiled a large number of Jews. About 50 years later, the Persian king Cyrus conquered Babylonia. Cyrus allowed a group of Jews from Babylonia to rebuild Jerusalem and settle in it. However, a large number of Jews remained in Babylonia, forming the first Jewish Diaspora. After the reestablishment of a Jewish state or protectorate, the Babylonian exiles maintained contact with authorities there. The Persians ruled the land from about 530 to 331 B.C. Alexander the Great then conquered the Persian Empire. After Alexander's death in 323 B.C., his generals divided the empire. One of these generals, Seleucus, founded a dynasty that gained control of much of Palestine about 200 B.C. At first, the new rulers, called Seleucids, allowed the practice of Judaism. But later, one of the kings, Antiochus IV, tried to prohibit it. In 167 B.C., the Jews revolted under the leadership of the Maccabeans and either drove the Seleucids out of Palestine or at least established a large degree of autonomy, forming a kingdom with its capital in Jerusalem. The kingdom received Roman "protection" when Judah Maccabee was made a "friend of the Roman senate and people" in 164 B.C. according to the records of Roman historians.


Palestine is named for the Philistines, who are believed to have been from Greece.

Muhammad died in 632 AD...are you saying he was around 400 years old when he died?

Edit: What do you mean when you say "but what you have done to them is not going to be forgotten soon .. "?

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