The problem was discussed by Bastiat, as an issue with seen vs unseen. While hybrid cars have some very attractive "seen" advantages, their "unseen" disadvantages are troubling. The rare earth minerals required for creating their batteries are quickly being used up. The mines where the minerals are taken from are open pits. The processing of the minerals is dangerous and many of the minerals are themselves poisonous. Add to this that the use of hybrids in the US is based on mostly coal power and that hybrids represent a great strain on our power grid, then hybrids aren't nearly as attractive as their "seen" advantages make them appear.

So why do you think it is that the detrimental disadvantages of hybrid cars are rarely mentioned? If those who are pushing for them are really concerned about the environment, why do they push for the hybrid, when it's arguably the more polluting choice when the full life cycle is taken into account?

This sounds interesting being that I don't know where they get the stuff for the batteries or how this type is made. Where did you find this?

Use your favorite search engine and look for "Hybrid cars lithium shortage".

Or follow these links...

http://www.thedailygreen.com/living-green/blogs/cars-transportation/lithium-batteries-electric-cars-460209

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/daily_green_driving/15/will-hybrid-and-electric-car-batteries-force-a-global-lithium-shortage.html

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002667.htm

You'll have to dig a bit to find details on the mines, the dangers of Lithium, neodymium, lanthanum, etc.

The greenies are just focusing on getting off of oil which I'm a full support of and this direction in auto's has a ways to go before all the bugs are worked out. Hopefully they're sincere in helping the environment and not just blowing smoke to make a buck. But time will let the cat out of the bag.

Process for making lead electrode United States Patent 3935082

In making an electrode for a lead-acid accumulator or the like, a supporting body of titanium is immersed in a boiling solution of oxalic acid containing the ions of a titanium-oxalato complex. This treatment is followed by anodic coating of the titanium body with PbO2 in an electrolyte containing the ions of lead (II), in the presence of a lead (II) salt of an amido, imido, nitrido or fluoro sulfate or phosphate at least during a first anodizing stage. The coated electrode may be further immersed in a weakly medium for a prolonged period.

Can't find the chemical compounds for the electrolites.

Aside from those chemicals, think about the emissions from all the storeage batteries. Smee just one battery while your car is running.
How many will the hybrid need to opperate?

The only way we are not going to be a danger to the environment is if we go back to horse and buggy. It is going to be a matter of the lessor of two or more evils with us and vehicles, whether they roll, fly or whatever.

Technology is increasing expotentially. They are already experimenting with nano tech ultra capacitors that may replace batteries. Electric vs. Internal combustion, no question that electric is way more efficient.

Absolutely they are. But until ultra capacitors are available, we are using Lithium batteries, which are worse for the environment than petroleum could ever be.

But you have to start somewhere! Once we start producing electric cars, companies will be scrambling to improve technology on power storage. I imagine it was a big leap when we went from horses to cars too!

Personally, I'm not ready to trade in my DeWalt 18 volt cordless drill for a primitive drill with an internal combustion engine. Think about it.

you can't find Titanium plating electrolyte chemical formula is because it is fairly secret. It uses virtually zillions of gallons of are you ready "Cyanide"

I know this

thats our biggest problem with hybrid and electric cars

the battery technology hasnt advanced enough to really support them. we are still using early 20th century designs as far as batteries go.

and does the power plant (usually coal) generating the electricity we use to power them create less carbon emissions than the internal combustion engine would have in the first place?

?

I've already agreed with you. My point is that why claim you are "doing it for the environment" when it's actually really bad for the environment? Arguably worse than using a standard internal combustion engine. Now you are saying "We are doing it for progress" and that makes some sense. But regardless of if anyone is driving a hybrid or electric car or not, ultra capacitors are going to be hot. A good, cheap ultra capacitor would change the world. Solar, wind, wave powers would all become viable overnight. I look forward to that day, but until then, I'll keep my standard car. It only has one battery and has a much sturdier frame than a hybrid.

Can you imagine the amount of chemical spilled in a rollover. That's the kind of acid that'll eat you alive.

Lithium batteries are a very short term solution in hybrid cars. The technology is already being developed to replace the batteries with carbon nanotube ultra capacitors which last forever and are more efficient. The hope, of course, is to increase the efficiency of ultra capacitors to the point where they can replace the batteries in electric cars also, but that technology is a little way off at the moment. However, hybrids are a whole different ballgame and will probably not need batteries soon.

The only way we will no longer be a threat to the environment is to cease to exist.

I did. I realized that my cordless (im a milwaukee 18v man myself) is worthless at many jobs where the power is not on. Same with an electric car. I cant take my vehicle to the mountains or desert because theres nowhere to recharge. So if we put an internal combustion engine in it to charge it, we are reall back to square one. The batteries add weight and solve a problem that doesnt exist.


We have enough oil just on our own shore for a century by the most conservative estimates.

Also consider that an average joe can repair an ic engine. We arent going to make our own batteries, we will pay thousands for them. Even if they were capacitors, I have someone changing a capacitor every day somewhere in N Florida. No battery or capacitor is gong to be as rugged as a cast iron engine block.

You see tractors around here from the 1920's that sell for more than new chinese ones. My newest vehicle is a 20 year old diesel suburban. I have a 50gal vegetable oil fuel system on it. I will be driving it in 20 more years. My motorcycle is 30 years old and the one before that was 45 years old. This is a cheap technology with the bugs worked out. An average guy could buy one and take care of it and keep it for life. The most important problem with electric and hybrid cars is they still cost more over a lifetime and have components that cost thousands (batteries), none of which evenlasts ten years. Its about freedom to travel in the end for me. I support elimination of he cafe standards and when the henry ford of electric cars raise up, well change then, when its cheaper and more reliable than the old standby.

Right now, battery technology is the least of their concerns (other than maximizing what already exists). They are trying to increase the ROI of the vehicle in order to appeal to the average consumer because at even $4 a gallon, you are looking at a few hundred thousand miles in order to break even. That economic disadcvantage is the downfall of the hybrid car because the average consumer will never reach that threshold and it will always be cheaper in both the short term and long term to go gasoline-based. Not to mention the fact that hybrids have a s**t resale value because there is no trust in the life of lithium ion batteries.

Fantastic quote:

Audi of America President Johan de Nysschen dismissed GM’s upcoming plug-in hybrid, the Chevrolet Volt as “a car for idiots.” More specifically, he said that few consumers will be willing to pay $40,000 base price for a car that competes with $25,000 hybrids.
“No one is going to pay a $15,000 premium for a car that competes with a (Toyota) Corolla,” he said. “So there are not enough idiots who will buy it.” “They’re for the intellectual elite who want to show what enlightened souls they are,” he said

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http://onemansblog.com/2007/03/27/prius-outdoes-hummer-in-environmental-damage/



"Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ˜dead zone" around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalists nightmare.

The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside, said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesnt end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce nickel foam. From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I havent even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer – the Prius arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called Dust to Dust, the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles – the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it. "

You are totally correct.

Even things like solar energy, wind power, and water power have adverse affects on the ecosystem.

The problem is that people are so wasteful these days. When you used to buy a tv or radio, you had repairmen to keep it going. Now you just throw it away and buy a new one. Waste is what we are accustomed to.

I do have a theory though.

According to current science, matter as we know it doesn't exist. All we see, feel, hear, touch, etc. is merely energy at different constant frequencies. There is a way to harness this energy, we just have to figure it out. Maybe we could turn this waste into energy we could use. Sounds like science fiction, but i don't see it as being anymore impossible than flying through the solar system on spaceships.


I am also thinking we could lessen our impact on the environment by using a balance of these different forms of energy and resources.