I am waiting too.

Cause I see this whole thing as an attack and consider it insulting to mentally unwell people. And cannot get past that no matter how much he tries to explain himself.

Hi Dragoness - philosophy has a long history of offending people even the one philosophy that attempts to unite all people under the umbrella of equality (ETHICS) finds a way to be offensive (of course that may just be in their minds, unfortunately that tends to show up in their behavior !!!)

What is the cause of that?

First of all, the intention of the question was to find some piont af agreement so the conversation/discussion/debate could proceeed with coherency. SO it does not matter what definition is used. I was simply looking to find out if we were all talking about the same thing or not.

So to answer the question about my definitions...

I define "mental illness" as the "diseases/illnesses/disorders listed in the DSM", and "medical diseases/illnesses/disorders" as "any that are not listed in the DSM".

Now as far as I'm concerned, the definition of "illness" is irrelevant. Anyone can pick any definition they want, or not, and it's fine with me. What I'm concerned with is the differentiation between the "mental" and "medical" aspect.

I agree. Personally, I think all offense is "in the mind". My own personal philosophy demands that any offense I have ever taken with anything anyone has ever done to me has been "in my mind". That's not to say that I never take offense at anything or that I never get upset when I do take offense. Just that to be philosophically honest with myself, I have to admit that any such offense is rooted in my own mind.

can't delete a post i guess.

with this clarification of yours then the answer to your question is simple. mental illness is indeed science if you now consider that illness and disorder are synonamouse for the purpose of your thread, . noting mythical about "medical disorders". they do exist. do medical illnesses sometime cause or contribute to mental disorders? absolutely. but not all mental disorders are related to medical problems. delusion is described by psychiatry as a belief in a concept in in spite of vast evidence for an alternative concept. by that definition a belief in god is a delusion. few in the country would agree of course but that is the definition of one mental disorder.

Jrbogie makes a point that is right in line with what Skyhook is suggesting. Sometimes aborrant behavior is not associated with any biophysiological malfunctions. In these cases the problem is a cognitive one. For example, extreme shyness may prohibit a person from socialization and can become so extreme as to limit every day productivities which all add to our wellbeing and happiness with life. In psychiatry the causes of the problem may be quite important because treatment involves understanding the roots of the problem by the client. But in cognitive psychology the treatment is focused or retraining which include various types of new reinforcements to elicit behavior changes that will help the person adjust from this starting position.

Shyness is certainly not a medical illness, but it is itself and in combination a psychological disorder that impedes an individuals ability to live a happy and productive life.

Now Sky may think this is reason to believe that psychology is not a science, but even in this aspect he would be wrong. For without the scientific studies of the physical aspects of the brain, and the biological aspects of proper system functions within the body, we would not know if the person was suffering from a medical affliction or not.

Furthermore, in order to help this person overcome a debilitating malfunction of cognition, a great field of scientific study was necessary in determining how best to treat the individual and of course it takes a lot of knowledge to understand the studies, what they mean, and how they can be applied to help people.

So we might actually determine that any obstacle medial or mental that stands in the way of a person's freedom, liberty, and choice, which allow for a full, happy, and productive live, is in fact a disease/illness/disorder (as Sky clumps them together)

So while he makes a point that can be considered accurate, it is not sufficient because it does not span the issues which are intricately woven through several fields of scientific study.

Even is it were in my own mind, it doesn't make me wrong. If I see the attack of helpless and unavailable to defend themselves humans, I may be seeing a side not seen by the others.

No matter how it has been stated that no offense was intended the title of the thread is offensive and it just goes on from there.

As for the difference from medical to mental there is none. The science is the same. I already pointed it out and explained the science behind both medical and mental. The only differences are what is being observed or measured, that is it.

I don't see anything offensive in the title of the thread. It is an interesting title that got peoples attention.

If mental illness were found to be a 'myth' I would think that it would be a good thing. Then, perhaps a cause for a person's disorder or odd behavior could be more closely investigated or might be found and corrected instead of just saying... oh that guy is mentally ill, there is no cure for that.

Also, the problem with the idea of "mental illness" is that if a person believes in something that a society decides is illogical they could label them mentally ill or insane.

Delusions can be induced by excess doses of DMT that can be found in many plants. Food can alter your behavior and moods too, but medical doctors today are only just beginning to realize how food effects over all health.

I think mental disorders or malfunctioning thought processes probably have a physical cause of some kind. Serial killers found insane, should be held accountable for their crimes just as much as anyone else. But if a person does something criminal because they have a brain tumor, I would say that is a physical problem.

People with anger problems who are violent today are given drugs to correct or mask the problem. I believe there is an underlying reason for their disorder that may be physical and may have something to do with genetics or something else. I would like to see these types of problems corrected without the use of drugs, but in a more natural way. Maybe with vitamin therapy or food therapy.

I know that vitamin B12 helps me think more clearly and gives me lots of energy. To me, it almost seems like a wonder drug.

I think Sky asks a very good question.

I think it could be conceived that I ried to "duck out" on this definition. So I just wanted to give everyone my viewpoint on it. If would define "illness" as "an unwanted condition". I think that covers all athe requirements, even if it is subjective. And the mental/medical differentiation that I used has already been given.

I think the "offensive" nature of anything to do with mental illness has its roots in something far broader and deeper than what has been addressed so far.

Consider this.

If you are in an argument with someone, and they don't agree with the reasonability of your viewpoint, what is one of the most common accusations you can expect? Something along the lines of "You're nuts". It may not be those exact words. There are many ways it can be expressed. But it is always a reference to mental function and it is always an insult.

And in every single one of those cases where the mental condition is used as an insult, this definition of "myth" applies exactly

"any invented story, idea, or concept"


Then consider this.

We do not sentence people to treatment for medical conditions in a court of law, but we do for mental conditions.

We do not insult people by accusing them of medical conditions, but we do insult them by accusing them of mental conditions.

You can go as far back as you want into the origins of the concept of mental illness. Any and all such concepts have always had an implication of being somehow “wrong”.



And finally, consider this.

Which is more insulting
1) Accusing people of having a condition that is universally considered “wrong”, or
2) Saying the accusations are false



Now of course there is the situation where a person considers there is something wrong with themselves. I.e. a person says “I see pink elephants and that’s not right.”

And here’s what you must understand - I am in now way intending to disparage such a person for his viewpoint. If he says he sees pink elephants, then as far as I’m concerned, he really does see pink elephants.

But why is it that other people insist that there is something “wrong” with him?

As I see it, there are two sides to this.

1) The person thinks it’s wrong.
2) Someone else thinks it’s wrong.

Now I submit that the only thing “wrong” in case #2 is that it is different from what someone else sees. How many people see or don’t see the elephants is irrelevant.

So understand that any and all objections I have to anything having to do with mental illness, has to do with side #2, not side #1. Side #1 is never an insult, whereas side #2 is always and insult if it does not agree with side #1.

And that is the fundamental distinction I make between what is and what is not insulting about the whole subject.


Now one last thing. I refuse to get into a debate over the “political correctness” of the terms used. I don’t care if it’s “sick”, “ill”, “disordered”, “deficient”, “wrong”, “unreasonable”, the oh-so-PC “challenged” or anything else. For my purposes, in this discussion, they all refer to “something that shouldn’t be”. So I have used “wrong” because I consider it to be the least insulting of all of them.

Take the many cases of alien abductions (thousands) of people who don't even 'believe' in aliens....

Their experiences are REAL.

And yet for years, they have been ridiculed and made fun of and called "delusional" "nuts" "crazy" and so on. That in addition to being called "Liars" by people who don't believe or understand what is going on.

If they are not 'crazy' and if you don't believe in aliens or alien abductions, then what is the explanation?

Is it a giant mind control experiment or hoax by the government? If that is what it is, that is more shocking than real alien abductions. Of course I might be called a crazy paranoid conspiracy theorist for even suggesting such a thing.

Some of these people might be 'insulted' if you call them crazy or insane or delusional. Others might hope that were true.... but some might still want some answers to the question of how they woke up naked in the middle of the forest....with no memory of the last five hours.

Date rape drug?

Well it could very well be true that there is something I don’t understand. I won’t deny that.

So here’s how I understand it. “…the scientific studies of the physical aspects of the brain, and the biological aspects of proper system functions within the body… are used to determine if it is a medical condition. If the tests are positive, it is called medical. If the tests are negative, it is called mental.

Which to me is pretty much equivalent to “if we know what causes it, it’s medical. If we don’t know what causes it, it’s mental.”

That whole statement is solely dependent upon one single word - “cognition”. You could replace that one word with a thousand different words, and it would still be true.

The problem I have with that is if “cognition” is being defined in terms of that same “[color=blue great field of scientific study”.

If so, then it becomes a circular reference.

If not, then what is the referent?

Which is the whole point I have been trying to get at from the very first post.

Thanks Jeannie. That is the best example yet of exactly what I'm talking about. (I'm kind of ashamed that I didn't think of it myself. )

The key aspects are:
1) The person had an experience.
2) Others think he's wrong based on nothing but their own subjective viewpoint.

Notice that the opinion of the others is not based on anything objective – e.g. scientific evidence. If scientific evidence is brought into the argument at all, it is always the fact that there is no scientific evidence.

But yet the psychiatrist (i.e. someone who is supposedly “highly educated in a scientific discipline”) will say “It didn’t really happen. It’s all in your mind.”

Does anyone else see the absurd irony here?

Although I see your point of view here. I really do not think you have fully considered the position from a mentally compromised person's view.

Maybe you cannot.

Having been cognitively compromised myself and having the problem of living with it for the rest of my life as it is or getting worse, I can relate the them.

I see the same thing in Sky's posts a complete miss hit on the view from inside of the mentally compromised person's view.

Maybe he cannot see it because he has never been there either.

To say we wish that all illness could be cured is a politically correct statement that offends none. To say that what people see, feel, go through, struggle with, etc... is a myth is insulting.

I agree totally.

True.

I am truly sorry that you feel that way. And there is no sarcasm or irony or anything else intended in that statement. Just simple, unadulterated truth. I truly am sorry.

So moving forward, what can be done about it? Delete the entire thread?

If you think some forum rule has been violated, in letter or in spirit, by that title - or by anything I have posted, for that matter - I urge you to bring it to the attention of the moderators and request it’s deletion.

But other than that, I don’t know what can be done about your feelings of being attacked – other than to simply agree with everything you say and not bring up any ideas that may be counter to your beliefs.

If so, then there is no reason to even use the term "mental" at all. Which I personally think would be a huge step in the right direction.

The experience of any illness is real. I believe in finding causes and cures.

What I would object to is someone telling me that I am mentally ill or insane because I do astral travel or see UFO's or little green men.

What I would object to is someone telling me that I am mentally ill if I had some kind of physical problem that effected my behavior or my perception of reality.

If you can quote where I said that, (with post date and time) I will personally ask the moderators to delete it.

Yes I don't think anyone said anything like that.

I do understand what she is saying though. I have had people tell me that all illness is in the mind.

Of course it is.

In my philosophy, this entire universe is a mind created holographic reality, so everything is "in the mind"