HI EVERYONE - one of my fly by visits between homework and bed. I apologise for not reading the entire thread but after reading the first page I wanted to make some comments defending scientific research and hopefully provide some information. Sure miss all you guys - hope your are all well!

As massagetrade pointed out, there is a semantics issue here. When emotions, thoughts, and behavior are deviant (as in extreme, bizarre or quite unusual), distressing (specifically unpleasant & upsetting to the individual), dysfunctional (affecting an individual’s ability to function in constructive ways in their daily activities), dangerous (or potentially so, to themselves or to others), it is referred to as abnormal.

The earliest science of psychology was dominated by empirical evidence of observation. When patterns became evident (description), and prediction (who, what to expect, and when) proved to be highly accurate, then hypothesis could be formed as an explanation. This often provided the basis from which disorders were ‘labeled’ (NOT INVENTED).

As technology improved, and continues to, study of the brain, as well as the various systems in the body that might have effects on the brain have provided some provoking and accurate information supporting the FACT that mental disorders often have physiological, or biophysiological components. There is another component that can greatly effect the degree to which these factors might combine to increase the number of people who suffer from these disorders, and increase the seriousness of the disorder—that component is a psychological one.

So what you call “mental illnesses” are a combination within a multiplicity of factors that often connect to each other on spectrum. The spectrum commonly exists when distinctions between patterns (of behavior) have not been delineated due to the effects of the individual psychological make up of all the people that exhibit the patterns contained in the spectrum of a disorder.

Psychological make-up itself, within individuals consists of many things, genetic, personality disposition, cultural and even the thought patterns which been influenced by family, school, and other social contacts.

The major task of the field of psychology has been to identify specific targets of hypothesis from which the physical sciences (biology, physiology, and chemistry) can explore possible physical connections to the abnormal behavior.

To say that

Does an injustice to those who suffer from mental disorders, and it is an injustice to the achievements all the sciences that delve into abnormal behavor have made in the last hundred years.

We have a great working knowledge of the homeostasis of the body, and of the chemical interactions between systems in the body which have allowed to expand this knowledge to reactions of the body when introduced to outside chemical proponents as well. We not only know how many of these chemicals can cause disorders, but we also have medical tests to help us evaluate when chemical imbalance plays a role in abnormal disorders.

Alzheimers is a disorder which a great many have been labeled as having – but the truth is, the only known why to verify this diagnosis is through cross section examination of the brain. BUT we have learned enough to make the diagnosis anyway, and what we have learned goes a long way in making the life of those who suffer from the patterns of this disorder a little better.

Many of the disorders have led scientists to hypothesize a connection between the patterns of a disorder and part of the body (usually the brain or CNS) from which the disorder may stem. There is, now, quite a body of evidence that links certain brain factors to certain disorders. It is true that the majority of disorders that are linked in this way cannot ‘proven’ categorically to be the one reason for the disorder. Again, because there are so many other factors which must also correlate.

So what has been ‘done’ is often in the form of drugs. When research determines a part of the brain or a hormonal system is the most probable cause of abnormal behavior a drug is designed based on the interactions between it and the affected parts.

As a case in point – schizophrenia. Symptoms and patterns identified a broad range of people to come under the label. In the beginning what little we knew about the brain, the patterns of disorder, and all the other factors allowed for treatment via drugs. Many drugs have insued, sometimes effective but only in some cases, sometimes with terrible side effects often due to the unknown connectivity of other bodily systems.

Today a great deal of study of the brain has indicated that some forms of schizophrenia may be different types of the disorder – in other words the same part(s) of the brain seem to be affected – but for different reasons.

IN CONCLUSION: Research from many scientific disciplines have come together to provide us with enough conclusive evidence to present cases of mental disorders.

Remember that mental retardation was once a huge and broad disorder, which included normal people who simply have a low IQ to people with actual medical conditions causing mental instability, people who were depressed due to chemical imbalance, etc. Today that category is actually very small, and a whole range of other diagnoses have taken its place. Today people are treated for their specific condition even those for which we have no “medical test”. And they not only improve but they live normal lives.

Chronic fatigue syndrome has eight official symptoms, plus the central symptom that gives the condition its name:

* Fatigue
* Loss of memory or concentration
* Sore throat
* Painful and mildly enlarged lymph nodes in your neck or armpits
* Unexplained muscle pain
* Pain that moves from one joint to another without swelling or redness
* Headache of a new type, pattern or severity
* Unrefreshing sleep
* Extreme exhaustion lasting more than 24 hours after physical or mental exercise

Of all chronic illnesses, chronic fatigue syndrome is one of the most mysterious. Several possible causes have been proposed, including:

* Depression
* Iron deficiency anemia
* Low blood sugar (hypoglycemia)
* History of allergies
* Virus infection, such as Epstein-Barr virus or human herpesvirus 6
* Dysfunction in the immune system
* Changes in the levels of hormones produced in the hypothalamus, pituitary glands or adrenal glands
* Mild, chronic low blood pressure (hypotension)
* An autoimmune process causing inflammation of certain nervous-system pathways
* A viral infection complicated by a dysfunctional immune response
* A low blood pressure disorder that triggers the fainting reflex



http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/chronic-fatigue-syndrome/DS00395/DSECTION=causes

Hi, Redy. Nice to see you.

Redy, I learned a great deal from your post, thank you.

Hi Winx & Dragoness - THANKS for sayin hi. Ok my last post and then I have five hours before I have to get up and go to work.



I am not familiar with the work from which you got this quote but with a fair amount of knowledge I can say you are most likely taking the quote either out of context or simply not understanding what is being said.

When Dr. Schaler says “mental disorders are things you do” he is implying that the science of psychology IS BASED on the study of behavior. One of the first things a good psychologist will do, is make sure a client is not suffering from a “disease”. If normal medical testing does not indicate a ‘disease’ or a malfunction within the body then the problem is treated psychologically and is most often diagnosed based on behavior and behavior patterns.





What the heck are you reading from? Try actually downloading a copy of the DSM-IV-TR – though you probably would not understand it.

I think what you refer to as ADD is the following.
Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder and it lists several things that must be present as well as, at least, a certain number of issues from a couple different groups (or lists) and not one of them includes your comment.



The CONDITION that exists which demonstrates a possible mental disorder IS EXHIBITED IN BEHAVIOR – JUST LIKE most of your physiological functions. A strictly physiological illness would NEVER be known if there was not some identifying BEHAVIOR.
What is a fever? What is pain? What is asthma? What is a tumor? They are the visible behaviors, the outward signs which the behavior of the body which displays and signals a malfunction.
When the brain is affected in a malfunction, behavior will be the most common signal.

I am not a staunch supporter of the DSM-IV-TR, in fact I actually got a B in one of my classes because I wrote a couple papers explaining my opposition (properly referenced of course) to several of the diagnostics. HOWEVER, much of what you – and others- dislike about psychology is the fact that diagnosis seems to be completely subjective on the part of the psychologist.

That’s part of the reason the book was designed – to eliminate as much of the subjective diagnosis as possible. Though I don’t agree with some of it, I do support the underlying reasons. Besides categorizing and delineating disorders for diagnosis and treatment the book also helps the other sciences to hypothesize what malfunctions within the body might be involved.



Actually it’s more than that now – Post Traumatic Stress disorders are on the rise (happens during war – and times of economic instability).

But once again you are not understanding the broad range or the implications. A male who takes Viagra may in fact be suffering from depression, or a psychological sexual disorder, or a physical disorder; but a drug is cheaper, requires little conversation, and much more convenient. So many disorders are not even diagnosed.

A psychological disorder can be a one time depressive episode due to other illness or the devastating loss of a loved one OR it can be a stroke victim suffering from brain damage which is producing a psychological disorder or any other disorders we are so use to calling “mental illness”.



And as I mentioned before many categories of disorders have been broadened. Until about 30 years ago it was ‘assumed’ that children reacted to psychological disorders in the same way as adults thus there was basically only one category for children “mentally retarded.”

Today we understand a great deal more, specifically that children require their own field of study. Part of the influx of new disorders has stemmed from this research. We are still in the beginning of that research and today Autistic spectrum disorder is labeled a spectrum because we know there are many types of disorders within it, but the patterns of behavior run a spectrum and until we have had time to form the hypotheses and advance in theory it is the best we can do for now. This is why we call pshychology a PRACTICE and why it is a science becasue we are using scientific methods to descripe, predict, and change.



You are quite INCORRECT in your thinking an in your conclusion. First of all there is quite a difference between psychiatry and psychology, do you understand that much?

The science of psychology has become a multi-disciplined field of study. We know, today, that abnormal behavior can stem from several factors ranging from genetics, chemistry, physiology and even culture.



You should hear me laughing – if you paid a penny for this information – you were swindled.

The DSM-IV-TR was not designed to be a medical dictionary – do you even know its history?

I think you should stick to philosophy and leave science to those who explore and practice the various disciplines with a more open mind and lot more up to date information.

Be well everyone!

Allright, after searching through seven paragraphs, I find that all three questions could have been answered with 20 words. The rest may be edifying, but it is mostly irrelevant.

So here are the actual answers…

What is the test?
A lithium blood test.

What does it show?
The amount of lithium present in the bloodstream.

How are the results used in the treatment of bi-polar disorder?
Monitoring the amount of lithium in the bloodstream

So the lithium blood test does not measure the condition, it only measures the treatment.

Which has always been my point.

That mental disorders are not quantifiable by any objective means, so unlike true medical conditions, they are always dependent on subjective interpretations.

First of all, I want to thank everyone for all of the scientific information. It has been very informative and I appreciate the effort put into the research and detailed explanations.

Now unfortunately, because there are almost two full pages of posts, containing scores of points I would like to address, I just don’t have the time (or inclination really) to do so.

So what I’d like to do is to “change the angle of attack” here.

Now let me set this up with a reference to Diabetes.

The treatment for diabetes has been compared to the treatment for mental illness in the sense that there is no cure, only treatment. So what is the difference between them? What factor distinguishes Diabetes from mental illness? Is it because we can objectively quantify the condition? Is it because the condition is fatal if not treated?

Now really those questions are mostly rhetorical. You can answer them if you want, but I’m not really requesting that anyone do so. I use them simply to establish a viewpoint so that I can ask the real question.

“What exactly is the difference between a “medical illness” and a “mental illness”.

Now to anyone who chooses to answer that question, please be as unambiguous as possible. By that I mean that if you define “mental” in terms of the “mind”, please supply an unambiguous definition for “mind” – or at least unambiguous definitions for any ambiguous terms in that definition. In other words, I want to avoid starting out with semantic problems.

Once we get the distinction firmly established, we can go on to discussing everything else in those terms.

Okay, I haven't been awake very long. lol

“What exactly is the difference between a “medical illness” and a “mental illness”.

The brain/mind is an organ in the body. Within that organ we find vision, hearing, taste, and olfactory. Within that organ we also find neural pathways, etc. The brain has plasticity. That means that these neural pathways and the electrical firings can change - for better and for worse. A person can be born with malfunctioning neural pathways and electrical firings.

I am saying this because I believe that mental illness is a medical problem. The brain is another organ in the body.

I don't understand why you are saying the things that you are saying about mental illnesses. I think you will understand it better if you spent a day in a room with people that have mental illnesses. I would like you to see some of the people that I have seen. I would like you to see a man's horror when he sees his intestines falling out of his body. He had schizophrenia and it presented itself with visual hallucinations. I would like to see others, too, and imagine walking in their shoes.

What I get from that is that you consider "mental illness" to be simply a sub-category of "medical illness", like "heart disease" or "skin disease". The "mental" part simply refers to the fact that it is specific to the brain. In other words, there really is no difference between a “medical illness” and a “mental illness”, just as there is no difference between a “skin disease” and a “medical illness”. Is that correct?

I also get from it that you consider “brain” and “mind” to be exactly synonymous. That is, “brain” and “mind” are interchangable terms. Is that correct?

And finally, and most importantly, do you feel that the APA, AMA and FDA would accept those as the “official” definitions?

The reason it is important is that my intention is to discuss “official policy” and not “personal opinion”. So it is critical that we be using “official definitions” and not “personal interpretations”.

I'm not sure what you are referring to by "the things I am saying", but I can tell you that I have spent considerably more than a day in a room with people who have mental illnesses. I once spent two months in a mental ward. And in that time I got to know several dozen inmates quite well.

This is truly an interesting subject and I think it would be difficult to draw a line between what might be called a "mental illness" and a medical condition in the "official" sense for me because I do not adhere to most "official" authorities.

Can certain foods effect our behavior? The answer is yes.
Can certain drugs effect our behavior? The answer is yes.
Can our thoughts effect our behavior? The answer is yes.

If foods and drugs effect our thoughts, and thought effect our behavior, then a 'mental illness' can be the result of our diet, drugs, etc.

DMT causes 'hallucinations.' If you have an over abundance of that, and keep having hallucinations, then are you mentally ill? You may appear mentally ill, you may be diagnosed as mentally ill, but are you?

I don't believe that any disease is "incurable."

Just because we have not found a cure, that does not mean it is incurable.

I don't think you can draw a line between medical and mental illness. I don't think it is possible. Therefore, why would I care what the "official" finding is?

Officially, I think they just want to put us all on their drugs.

So you are insistant that things people go through that happen to show no obvious physical origin are essentially faked or misdiagnosed?

Is it not a dangerous thought to pursue?

Considering those out here like me who have an incurable condition that only gets treated for the symptoms because there is no knowledge of cause or cure.

Considering a society that beats up the mentally ill for something they cannot help. Ostracizes them and treats mental illness like piriah. Should we be emphasizing their pain and frustration by stating what they have been accused of all along?

Mental illness is a difficult diagnosis for docs. Do we only treat mental illness after someone is raped, molested, killed, etc... by the mentally ill? Should the docs not try to be proactive instead of dealing with the aftermath?

I don't like this discussion at all.

I feel as though an already mistreated and underdiagnosed group of humans are being unfairly targeted and dismissed.

It kinda pisses me off.

My other posts were not irrelevant. If you had read them, you would have read about the causes of the disorders. You have said more then once that these disorders were being diagnosed by behaviors only. I was showing you the organic reasons.

There is a reason that the lithium corrects the behavior and they have to get the right doses.

No. I am not now, nor have I ever insisted on anything like that. If that is how you interpret anything I’ve said, then I assure you it is a misinterpretation. I have seen and known dozens of people that had “mental illnesses”. And I do not believe any of the things they went through were either faked or “misdiagnosed”.

What I do believe is that the casues were unknown and that any claim that the causes were known were false claims.

I posted some of the causes.

As with all science is the process not the same? Observation, theory, experimentation or more observation, adjustment to theory, more tests, more observation, more adjustments, etc.... continuously forever until a positive conclusion can be met. And until the positve conslusion, do they not go on theories most of the time if the theories seem sound? Is this not true of all diagnosis of physical or mental conditions, disorders and diseases?

I will come back to, is this discussion not dangerous in that it will bring more pain and discomfort to those who live with these problems everyday? They are already dealing with the fact they have something of which there is no cure, they are already dealing with the fact that in most cases their will not be a cure, etc....

I just don't know the purpose here. You do not agree with the theories of causes and........????

I didn’t mean “the other posts” were irrelevant. I meant that most of the rest of that one post was irrelevant to the answering of the questions.

I did read them. And I saw no definite causes stated. There is a lot of “thought to be” and “possible” and “may” and “indicated” and “evidence suggests” and other wishful thinking. But there was no definitely known cause stated anywhere. Quite the contrary. There is “There is no known direct cause of” and “No blood analysis, x-ray or other medical test exists to identify”, but there is no “the cause is known to be” or “the cause has been determined to be”.

Well sure there is a reason the lithium corrects the behavior. I never disputed that fact. But that’s not a statement of cause.

Yes, you are correct. That is the usual sequence of events in the scientific method.

But that’s not the issue. The issue is claiming that the theory is proven fact.

Well as far as I am concerned, any pain and suffering cause by discussing them starts with insisting that they are “diseases that need to be cured”. And who is doing that? It most certainly is not me. If you want to blame someone for causing pain and discomfort by discussing them, try blaming the people who started it all in the first place - the DSM task force. They are not “diseases” until the DSM Task Force says they are.

Yes, I do not agree that the claimed causes are the actual causes.

Here are a couple critical and telling questions:

Do you believe that “the spirit” can or does have any effect on personal behavior?

Or do you believe that “the spirit” is completely unrelated to personal behavior?

Obviously, if you do not believe in the existence of spirit at all, then you must believe that all action , behavioral or otherwise, is nothing more than probabilistic interactions of particles and energy. Thus, the only true cause that can be assigned to mental disorders is whatever you think may be the ultimate cause of the universe. Everything else is the effect of that.

And even if you do believe in spirit, but believe that spirit has no relationship to behavior, then the exact same logic, and thus the same conclusion, applies.

On the other hand, if you believe that spirit is the source of any behavior at all, then you must conclude one of two things:

1) the spirit is the source of all behavior and thus the ultimate purpose of psychiatry is “to cure spiritually caused behavior”, or…

2) some behavior is caused by the spirit and some behavior is cause by the physical and thus the ultimate purpose of psychiatry is “to cure only the physically caused behavior”, ignoring the spiritually caused behavior. However, in order to do that, it is necessary to differentiate between spiritually caused behavior and physically caused behavior.

And therein lies the fundamental basis of what I consider to be wrong with psychiatry.

They are claiming the ability to differentiate between spiritually caused behavior and physically caused behavior.

But what is that differentiation based on? What are the factors involved in the determination?

It can’t be the behavior itself. That would mean that the behavior determines the behavior, which is an identity, not a difference.

It can’t be science. That would require some objectively demonstrable cause=>effect relationship between spirit and physical.

So what’s left?

The only thing left that I can see is subjective opinion.

And that is exactly how it’s done. A group of people (the DSM Task Force) vote on what is, and what is not, “mental illness”.

And that is my major beef with psychiatry in general.

They are essentially self-appointed arbiters of the existence and/or nature of spirit.

Now I ask you: How is that different from religion?

I read through this.

Spiritual behavior? Do mean like the Native Americans used to believe that a crazy person was touched by the spirit world? I fail to see how that even relates to this.

Sounds like a personal view here.

At the expense of a people who need all the help they can get, by the way.

Psychiatry and psychology have both had their bad moments in the past just as regular medicine has. It is a learn as you go thing this health thing. At all levels.

Let me tell you how this insults mentally ill patients, yet again and maybe you will see this time.

I had symptoms of my MS years before my diagnosis. I was misdiagnosed over and over and over, everything from depression to hormones, every kind of different doctor and I struggled almost daily to get through it. Being misdiagnosed and not recieving the help you need makes you suffer. They make you feel as though you are a hypochondriac or something because you keep coming back to them and keep coming back to them with no relief.

Finally the day came when after my going numb from my feet to my chest and losing the ability to walk, I was sent to a neurologist who tentatively diagnosed me with MS. He expected dramatics from me because it is incurable, not immediately deadly most of the time but a serious life changer. I was relieved to have a name for it. I was relieved that it wasn't just me being a hypochondriac like they were acting like before. Sure, the attack was terrible, I lost memory, I lost IQ, I lost feeling in my body, I lost more than people can imagine but I now knew what it was. It cannot be cured. But I am okay with the burden I carry here because I know what it is.

People with mental disorders feeling lost and confused, angry and frustrated, uncontrollable and outside of the "norm" need to have a name for what they go through, even if the docs are going on a theory. The mentally unwell need the attempt to help them.

I needed someone to legitimize my pain and struggle. So do the mentally unwell.

Does this help you at all? To see how you taking what little legitimacy they have been given by names of illnesses and attempts to help from the medical society dimisses them.

Spirituality is our body and mind so they are one entity not separate entities. It is the trinity, body, mind and spirit. All in one person.

As for the association with religion, you lost me there. So no comment.

As far as knowing the cause of any disease.... I think medical science is lacking too.

Do they REALLY know what causes cancer? If they did, they could cure it or at the very least, prevent it completely.

The natural condition of spirit is wellness. Any disease then, is probably caused by the mind, not the spirit. And by the mind I don't mean the brain.

So assuming that an individual 'mind' is malfunctioning, what would cause it to do so? I think its electrical, and that there are positive and negative problems that cause things to get unbalanced and out of sync with spirit.

Do you think that thoughts can effect your health? I think it has been proven that they do. Therefore you must then locate the originator of thought.

There again you are opening the question of spirit, mind or brain. Yes indeed this is the question.

Do we have souls? Is illness a spiritual matter at its core? Some people think so.

Lacking or limited? Yes, we are limited in our knowledge even those who have the most of the knowledge are still limited.

I know the conspiracy theorists claim all kinds of things like we know a cure to all diseases but do not allow the medical staff to use them, etc... Bullarky.

Our limitations are frustrating especially when we are watching people struggle and possibly die. But to dismiss their struggle and take away what names or legimitizing they are given in this limited environment is more harmful. It makes them unworthy of consideration.

The natural condition of mind, body and spirit is wellness. So to believe one would sabatoge the others is ridiculous.