Spider Elohim is used up through Gen 2:3 This is the History...Then
Yahweh's name is used. My posts are directly from the scriptures. the
scriptures were not intended to be understood by non-commandment
keepers. What is the description of the saints in Rev? Miles

Milesoftheusa,

The scriptures weren't designed to be understood by Pharisees either.
You think the way to heaven is open to you because you mispronoun Jesus'
Hebrew name (it's Yeshua, not Yahshua) and becuase you don't eat bacon.
You are going to get a rude awakening. I strongly encourage you to read
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts and pay attention to what is taught
about the Law. You are a legalist, just like the Pharisees and
Sadducees.

If you follow someone then you do as they did. How hard can that be.
Yahshua took away the curse of the law.. Death.. Not the law. paul in
acts 21 ended up going into the temple with 4 people who had a vow on
them. He was accussed of taking greeks in to the temple they shaved
thier heads. Just look and open your eyes..

why?

Acts 21:17-25

17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
18 On the following day Paul went in with us to (James AN APOSTLE), and
all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in
detail those things which YHWH had done among the Gentiles through his
ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified YHWH. And they said
to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have
believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been
informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the
Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise
their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The
assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23
Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow .
24 Take them and (be purified with them)( THIS IS TALKING TO PAUL), and
pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may
know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are
nothing, but that you yourself also (walk orderly and keep the law).
NKJV
Spider explain what Paul was doing and why? OK..Miles

Matthew 7:14

"Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto
life, and few there be that find it."

and further

"... And then I will declare to them, I never knew you, Depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness.

He does not say call my name and you have no reason to follow law. He
says you are forgiven.

Go and sin no more.

Spider you posted this...

Do you honestly believe in the Sacred Name movement? That unless you say
"Yahweh" and "Yeshua" that you are bound for hell? That's not even
legalism, it's micro-legalism. In the Old Testament, Malach Yahweh (The
Angel of the Lord aka Jesus) said that his name was "wonderful"
(literally means "Beyond your comprehension"). It's not what you call
Jesus or God, but that you are faithful to them that matters.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Aye then so we are to beleive that in the old testement Jesus is the
Angel of the Lord, yet in the New you would have us beleive he IS God,
then you add unto this that he IS the Begotton Son and takes us to the
Father (God)(which you say he is)by way of the Holy Spirit (Which you
say He is). In politics this is called double speak.

Michael is the Angel of the Lord as so says the Old Testement in many
places.

AdventureBegins,

No, Michael is not the Angel of the Lord. Get your facts straight. The
Angel of the Lord allowed people who worship Him, no Angel would do
that. The Angel of the Lord was sometimes called YWVH. Take a class on
Christology or actually read the Bible. Jesus was the Angel of the Lord
and the Lord of Hosts. The Angel of the Lord was called both VWVH and
Adonai in the OT. Malach is translated as "Angel", but it means
"messenger". What did Jesus do in his life? He delivered the Message
of the Lord. He is the Son of the Father and He is God. Show me ONE
time that Micheal is called the Angel of the Lord. Just ONE time. You
can't do it.

THIS IS TRUE AB YOU NEED TO LISTEN MORE TO SPIDER HE DOES KNOW WHAT HE
IS ALKING ABOUT

No angel is to ever be worshipped. The Angel of the Lord is Jesus, Angel
of God the Father.
Kat

It is BELIEVED by the church that the Angel of the Lord mentioned in
Genesis is Jesus. It is not proven nor is it said in the Old Testement.
IF IT IS NOT IN THE WORDS OF THE PROPHETS IT IS AN UNTRUTH A deceit
placed upon us by those that would be God.

It is also BELIEVED by some parts of the Church that Michael is Jesus.
Once again if it is not in the words of the prophets it is a deceit.

Prove to me that Jesus is God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the
End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel
to testify to you these things.



Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And
the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant
whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand
that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be
after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like
precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus
Christ”

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been
working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only
broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself
equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.
He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for
if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the
Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good
works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you
stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not
stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make
Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life.
No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet
you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father;
so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other
name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ
Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be
equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a
bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of
godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our
great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is
forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your
kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore
God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your
companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not
confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an
antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the
End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the
Almighty.”

Kat

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not
confess Jesus Christ as coming IN THE FLESH. This is a deceiver and an
antichrist.

Thou shalt have no God before me.

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written,
Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 7:24 No man can serve two masters;...

Matthew 11:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will
I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father
with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his
works.

Mark 9:37
Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me:
and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting
on the right hand of power, and comming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him. Why callest thou me good? none is
good, save one, that is, GOD.

John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the
Father:...

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of
man, then shall ye know that I am he. and that I do nothing of myself;
but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Jon 9:42 Jesus said unto them, If God where your Father, ye would love
me; for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither cam I of myself,
but he sent me.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again
unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto
the Fahter; for my Father is greater than I.

You have shown proof yourself AB. That is what I was trying to do.
Now, if you want tangable, touchable, in your face, can't be any
question...proof...then I don't have it. Proof is in the faith. Through
faith we shall find truth.
Kat

What I showed was not proof that Jesus is God. It was proof from his
own words (as relayed by the disciples) that He was Less than His
FATHER. Sent by his Father, Annointed by God, Reveled by God, Filled
with the Spirit of God, Spoke the Words God gave him to speak, and
brought back to heaven by the Father. All things which match Old
Testement prophesy. In no place within the Old Testement have any one
of the Prophets of Old called him God. Only that he would come from
God. AS DID WE ALL.

The things you showed me from the Old Testement said not that the son of
man would be God but that God was God. Yet the things you showed from
the New Testement usurped that by giving someone else the title of God.

Thou shalt have no God before me.

For the Churches to present the New Testement to show that Jesus was God
is a proof that they have changed the Word of God. Proof that the
AntiChrist was present roughly 300 to 400 years after the formation of
the Church. Do the math. That IS when the anti christ was supposed to
show. (Council of Trent would have been about right)

Isaiah 44:6
-------------------------------------------------------------
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of
hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Let's break this down. For those of you who understand will be given
wisdom for those of you who already know, *HIGH FIVE*.

God is Yahweh.
God is The King of Israel.
The Redeemer is the Messiah.
The Messiah is also LORD of hosts.
Both times "LORD" appears in the scripture, it is Yahweh. Both the King
of Israel AND His Redeemer are God. Two seperate beings, but they are
ONE God. Then we have a nice little tie in to Revelation 22.

Jesus speaking in Revelation 22:13...
-------------------------------------------------------------
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and
the end.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Reject the Son and you reject the Father, for they are ONE in the same.

The anti christ is present now. He will also be revealed before Christ,
King of Kings will reveal Himself.
Kat
As for church, I am doing that now. I will make a thread on that soon.
Kat

Well, lots of issues here. Have to backtrack a bit after re-reading all
prior post and new ones.

First, there was some issue regarding the dating of scripture. I'd like
to know, how this dating was actually arrived at - Spider.

Next there is a question of trinity. In Genisis, God is three
personalities. Why is that not the first trinity? Why would it not be
right, to continue, even adjust the trinity to fit the various forms
that God is supposted to have manifested. Perhaps to some, the Genisis
story is the foundation that sets the stage for the future of Trinity?

Then there is a question about names, and how they came about, and when
they were used and printed and which are proper.
But I'm confused about the timing element. For a couple time, it seems,
that God itself related to man that it had no name, that God could not
even be conceived of in it's whole. Wasn't Moses told this? So why
then would God be anything other than Lord (see original definition of
Lord) which also translates into God.

THREE topics, three questions, can someone please address them for me.
much appreciation!

This is a long post for me. Please excuse its length.

It is believe that in Genesis God was talking to the court of the angels
mentioned in Isasia.

"There is in the Old Testament no indication of distinctions in the
Godhead; it is an anachronism to find either the doctrine of the
Incarnation or that of the Trinity in its pages" ("God," Encyclopedia of
Religion and Ethics, Vol. 6, p. 254).
"Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not
contain a doctrine of the Trinity" (The Encyclopedia of Religion, ed.
Mircea Eliade, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1987, Vol. 15, p. 54).
"The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament" (New
Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 306).
"The Old Testament tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary
implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.... There
is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a
[Trinity] within the Godhead.... Even to see in the Old Testament
suggestions or foreshadowings or ‘veiled signs’ of the Trinity of
persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers"
(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God, Baker Book House, 1972, pp. xv, 8,
9).
"The Old Testament is strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal
being. The idea that a Trinity is to be found there is utterly without
foundation."
"There is no break between the Old Testament and the New. The
monotheistic tradition is continued. Jesus was a Jew, trained by Jewish
parents in the Old Testament scriptures. His teaching was Jewish to the
core; a new gospel indeed but not a new theology…And he accepted as his
own belief the great text of Jewish monotheism: Hear, O Israel, the Lord
our God is one God" (L.L. Paine, A Critical History of the Evolution of
Trinitarianism, Houghton Mifflin and Co., 1900, p. 4).
"The Old Testament can scarcely be used as authority for the existence
of distinctions within the Godhead. The use of ‘us’ by the divine
speaker (Gen. 1:26, 3:32, 11:7) is strange, but it is perhaps due to His
consciousness of being surrounded by other beings of a loftier order
than men (Isa. 6:8)" (A.B. Davidson, "God," Hastings Dictionary of the
Bible, Vol. II, p. 205).
"From Philo onward, Jewish commentators have generally held that the
plural [Gen. 1:26, ‘Let us make man....’] is used because God is
addressing his heavenly court, i.e., the angels (cf. Isa. 6:8). [This is
also the explanation given by the NIV Study Bible] From the Epistle of
Barnabas and Justin Martyr, who saw the plural as a reference to Christ,
Christians have traditionally seen this verse as foreshadowing the
Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the
plural meant to the original author" (Gordon Wenham, Word Commentary on
Genesis, p. 27).
The mistake of Justin Martyr (2nd century) had devastating effects. By
proposing that the Son of God, rather than the logos, preexisted, Justin
created the problem of two divine beings (God and the Son) which led
eventually to the Trinity. This novel doctrine was written into the
traditional creeds in 325 and 451 AD. But this was over 300 years after
the time of the New Testament.

AdventureBegins,

Jews and non-Christians will never agree with Christians that the
trinity is supported by the Old Testament.

'elohiym (God) appears 2697 times in the Old Testament. 'elohiym is
plural.

Only God creates, angels are merely creations themselves. Any Rabbi /
Pastor would deny that the angels were involved in creation.

You are proposing that God and angels share the same image, "in our
image". Around 2,000 years ago, you would have been stoned to death for
suggesting such a thing. And any Rabbi / Pastor of a non-cult
congregation would reject such a suggestion.

Hebrew has two words in indicate "Lord". Yahweh and Adonai. Yahweh
means God and Adonai means "Earthly Lord". In the following verse, both
the King of Israel (God) and his Redeemer (the Messiah) are called God.
In both places, the orginal Hebrew is Yahweh, NOT Adonai. Before you
call this a mistake or an error on the part of the person who was
transcribing this, think about the following: If this were a mistake,
the person responsible would have been stoned to death for Blaspheme.
No one would allow such a terrible mistake to occur, because they knew
what the ramifications would be.

Isaiah 44:6
--------------------------------------------------------------
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of
hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides
Me.'
--------------------------------------------------------------

Notice also that it says "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his
Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:"...What do they have to say?

'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.'
Whoa! God and the Messiah just identified themselves as ONE God. They
are both speaking and their statement is that THEY together are ONE God.

Say the word.
yahshua was told by a leader that he was over many men to say the word
and it would be done. he called this great faithIn Romans 10 we are told
to say the word. And it will be given. They spoke the word. Yahshua in
John 1 said he was/is the word and the word was with YHWH. Yes Yahshua
is the YHWH of the old testament. He came in many forms. But he came in
his fathers authority just as a messenger from a country who is let say
an ambassador comes in that countries name speaking for the country.
just as the man in Luke 7 said. Say the word. Yahshua said he did
nothing except his father told him. Just why would he say such a thing.
To say that Yahshua came as Elohim then what did he do? Nothing. But to
give up your place in the Heavens to become a man to experience what a
man goes through yet not sin and then go through the pain and suffering
that he did for us. Then Yahshua showed us what true love is. To say
Yahweh and Yahshua is the same is making his selfless act nothing at
all. Yahshua even means Yahweh is Salvation. And How many times does it
say EVERYONE WHO CALLS UPON THE NAME OF YHWH SHALL BE SAVED. Yahshua
that is why you must confess and believe he is the son of the Most High.
You are confessing the Most High as True Salvation. Not Yahshua.. Miles

I reckon if I was physically present near some of you I would be stoned
now.

Carefull to step outside you glass house before you throw that first
stone... could be messy otherwise.

Please prove what language Exodus was written in. Do an extensive
research and show me both the assenters and desenters.

You might be suprised at the results.

When I ran the Torah through my translator it did not come up with eloim
it came up with Eloy and Elahay. Explaine that.

I also found a web sit that claims Eloim means Heavenly Hosts.

When you shine a bright light in the fog it only blinds you.

You have to clear the fog first.