Double Tap


In response to the news blurb about the Marine who put two rounds
("double tap") in a wounded insurgent's head in Fallujah, here's a
response from a Marine:



"It's a safety issue, pure and simple. After assaulting through a
target, we put a security round in everybody's head. Sorry al- Reuters,
there's no paddy wagon rolling around Fallujah picking up "prisoners"
and offering them a hot cup a Joe, falafel, and a blanket. There's no
time to **** around on the target. You clear the space, dump the chumps,
and move on.



Are Corpsman expected to treat wounded terrorists? Negative. Hey libs,
worried about the defense budget? Well, it would be a waste, fraud, and
abuse for a Corpsman to expend one man-minute or a battle dressing on a
terrorist. Its much cheaper to just spend the $.02 on a 5.56mm FMJ.



By the way, in our view, terrorists who chop off civilian's heads are
not prisoners they are carcasses. Chopping off a civilian's head is
another reason why these idiots are known as "unlawful combatants." It
seems that most of the world's journalists have forgotten that fact.



Let me be very clear about this issue. I have looked around the web, and
many people get this concept, but there are some stragglers.



Here is your typical Marine sitrep (situation report): You just took
fire from unlawful combatants (no uniform - breaking every Geneva
Convention rule there is) shooting from a religious building attempting
to use the sanctuary status of their position as protection. But you're
in Fallujah now, and the Marine Corps has decided that they're not
playing that game this time. That was Najaf. So you set the mosque on
fire and you hose down the terrorists with small arms, launch some AT-4s
(Rockets), some 40MM grenades into the building and things quiet down.



So you run over there, and find some tangos (bad guys) wounded and
pretending to be dead. You are aware that suicide martyrdom is like
really popular with these idiots, and they think taking some Marines
with them would be really cool. So you can either risk your life and
your fire team's lives by having them cover you while you bend down and
search a guy that you think is pretending to be dead for some reason.
Most of the time these are the guys with the grenade or vest made of
explosives. Also, you don't know who or what is in the next room.



You're already speaking English to the rest of your fire team or squad
which lets the terrorist know you are there and you are his enemy. You
are speaking loud because your hearing is poor from shooting people for
several days. So you know that there are many other rooms to enter, and
that if anyone is still alive in those rooms, they know that Americans
are in the mosque. Meanwhile (3 seconds later), you still have this
terrorist (that was just shooting at you from a mosque) playing possum.
What do you do? You double tap his head, and you go to the next room,
that's what!



What about the Geneva Convention and all that Law of Land Warfare stuff?
What about it? Without even addressing the issues at hand, your first
thought should be, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6."



Bear in mind that this tactic of double tapping a fallen terrorist is a
perpetual mindset that is reinforced by experience on a minute-by-minute
basis. Secondly, you are fighting an unlawful combatant in a Sanctuary,
which is a double No-No on his part. Third, tactically you are in no
position to "take prisoners" because there are more rooms to search and
clear, and the behavior of said terrorist indicates that he is up to no
good. No good in Fallujah is a very large place and the low end of no
good and the high end of no good are fundamentally the same. Marines end
up getting hurt or die. So there is no compelling reason for you to do
anything but double tap this idiot and get on with the mission.



If you are a veteran, then everything I have just written is
self-evident. If you are not a veteran, then at least try to put
yourself in the situation. Remember, in Fallujah there is no yesterday,
there is no tomorrow, there is only now. Right NOW. Have you ever lived
in the NOW for a week? It is really, really not easy. If you have never
lived in NOW for longer than it takes to finish the big roller coaster
at Six Flags, then shut your hole about putting Marines in jail for "War
Crimes"."

Froggy OUT

Those who live by the sword are shot by those who don't.

Just a hell yeah Brother. Im a Navy Vet, my brothers a retired 30 year
Navy vet and My son served in Marines, and I have two cousins and a
newphew in iraq now. So, all these softies need to lighten up and back
up our men and women in uniform and stop giving lip service to fools who
havent really got a clue about what it takes to defend this great nation
of our.

i'm not a vet but i completly 100% agree with you. more people should
think like that.

Bull****, Im a Vet and I know they provide Training and tactics that
apply to the treatment of POW's. Not only that, but it is part of
military planning to provide for POW's to be transported to the rear.

And to think these ladies with sons over there, think their children are
doing the right thing, making Americans proud, and setting a good
example. I find it hard to believe this is a military wide rational, I
believe this might be a defense for the Marines that are on trial for
war crimes right now, but not a general representation of an American
Soldiers thinking..

My daddy always said, "Two wrongs dont make a right."

That's why I'm glad I'm not over there. Either way, it's a LOT of sh*t
to deal with mentally when ya get home.

In a combat zone POW's do not happen till the area is secure. If the
area is not secure anyone that is not dead is a potential danger.

Perhaps it is wrong. Yet which is worse making war or sending young men
to make it for you. To survive you must think in different terms. If
it looks in any way dangerous it a danger... Eliminate danger that you
may live.

thats a very glorifyied and in accurate way it happens over there,
stories like that give us soldiers a bad name.

YES i treat the wounded combatants any medic or corpsman who say their
supposed to kill them instead, is a liar and i doubt very much has even
left the wire.

but WTF do i know, two in the chest one in the head right?

hellcat 7a out

I am not justifing this behavior. There is no excuse for killing.

Which is why WAR should not be.

I have no invested interest in this war or any other war or armed
conflict, not now, not in the past, and hopefully, not in the future.

But if I am not wrong war is fought between armies. Armies composed of
uniformed men and women. Civilians are a part of the equation only
because they are usually in the wrong place at the wrong time and
nothing else to do about it.

But, civilian, non-combabtant people seeking the sanctuary of a Holy
place, to cheat and deceive and obtain their goal of killing lawful
soldiers, fighting honorably, is just wrong.

And Fanta you are right, 2 wrongs do not make a right. But a positive
wrong and a negative wrong cancel each other, so there is nothing wrong
is it?

Why is only the soldiers that stand trial, if they are following orders?
If they are left to their own devices to accomplish a mission, why
aren't their superiors brought to justice for sending soldiers into a
slaughter house?

I know nothing. About warfare or politics. I don't know what the
conditions are out there. I am sorry that you ArmyDoc had to sustain
the injuries you did. Maybe if someone had cleared th place first, so
you could attend to the injured safely, youo wouldn't be in this
situation now.

There is also compassion and common sense. Maybe these two conditions
fly out the window when you are under fire, and survival at any cost,
kicks in. I couldn't say. I am hoping never to be one of those mothers
that pray nightly for the safe return of their children from Iraq.

To all the men and women, sons and daughters, brothers, cousins,
nephews, uncles, sisters, aunts, I wish you all come home to your
families soon, safe, sound, well, whole.

My prayers go out to them and their families.

I would never glorify war or the killing that goes in one,but as cold as
it sounds better them than us.

They originally start out treating the injured. But some of the
scumbags pretended to be hurt and worn explosive vests. When the
servicemen got close enough, they would explode their vest and kill the
servicemen who were trying to save their life. After this happened a
couple times, the policy was changed and all woundeded were instead
killed on the spot. It's because they don't play fair, not because we
don't value human life.

Spider said

After this happened a couple times, the policy was changed and all
wounded were instead killed on the spot.

Policy hasnt changed.

I have looked and looked and I can not find one recorded instance of an
enemy combatant killing American soldiers while still alive and in need
of med. treatment.
Plenty of instances of them being shot to death by American soldiers
though. Most of which have been, or are being tried as criminals. There
is currently a case of Marines 8, I think, who decided they wanted to
kidnap a suspected insurgent, but when the surprise was compromised they
went to his neighbors instead, woke the man up, drug him to a hole gave
him a shovel and then all 8 fired repeatedly into the man . Then they
called it in and tried to say he was in the act of placing an IED.
Unfortunately, they forgot to untie the man before the officers arrived.
You should read it, the guys have confessed. I dont think this is a
common occurrence of behavior among American Troops, and I know it is
not military policy. I think it is a random occurrence that can be
attributed to the untenable position we place these young men in, and
the revenge many feel for the loss of their comrades. God bless the
fallen and never forget!

I found 1(one) instance of a dead body being rigged with explosives too,
but none of wounded men killing Americans, yet!

Thanks for the 'Fallujah' posting. It describes the fear well, fear
covered by adrenaline and underlaid by training.

It also illustrates several important issues:

1. That poor Marine shouldn't have been in Iraq in the first place. If
the shoe were on the other foot and our country had been invaded, you
can be sure that many if not all of us would be fighting back and doing
everything we could to expel the invader. This is all the Iraqis are
doing. We like to make excuses: sunni this and shi'a that -- but the
core reality is simply that the Iraqi people are fighting for their
freedom, against the invader.

2. When a civilian population fights back, they do it out of uniform. If
the US were invaded, I wouldn't waste time trying to find a uniform (or
trying to fit into old uniforms, LOL!) -- I would just go. For anyone
to ***** that the Iraqis aren't in uniform when they fight shows how
poorly they understand the reality of the situation in Iraq. And to
treat them as anything but regular combatants simply reinforces this
lack of understanding.

3. Yes, it is tough, when foriegn soldiers are deposited in another
country and try and dominate it. We have tried to do so in the past --
and 'failed'. We will 'fail' here, again. Why should be no surprise.
Personally, I won't view it as a failure: I'll just view it as the
inevitable end to a badly formed policy, a policy undertaken for
less-tehn-honorable goals.

4. But that it was done for less-than-honorable goals does not mean that
the soldiers in the field -- including this poor Marine -- should be
found themselves to be less than honorable. He may simply have been a
good guy put into a very bad situation. In the absence of any other
evidence, this is how I choose to think of him.

Oceans

Hmmmm.... the ***** in my last post are supposed to be "whine". Not sure
whay that happened.

Your search - American casualties from boobyytrapped bodies - did not
match any documents.

I cant find a thing..
Can anyone else?

Hi, Fanta,

People can be motivated by fear, even if it is not supported by fact.

For example, we have friends here on JSH who fear 'terrorism, and are
convinced that 'they' are out to 'get' us. The facts are quite
different, but the fear is so great that the facts are ignored.

The psychologists have a term for this: cognitive dissonance. When
information is presented to a person that is incompatible with their
view of how the world is, they ignore the information; it is as if they
hadn't heard or seen it. We are all victims of cognitive dissonance; it
is how our brains work, and how they let us down.

After Sept 11, we were lied to by the neocons, but the lies were so
well-crafted and so often repeated that it was natural for people to
believe them.

Now, the truth is quite obvious and increasingly well-known. But it
still clashes with what a lot of people came to believe post- Sept 11,
and so understanding among the general population is slow to emerge as
the cognitive dissonance has to be overcome.

After all, there are still people who believe that Columbus discovered
America, that man has never been to the moon, and that Katrina was sent
by an angry God.


Oceans

OK, I took the second y from boobyy, and I got some hits!
Blogs 99% nothing official and I have been going through casualty
reports of American Deaths. I have so far found 2 deaths caused by booby
trapped bodies, and they were American bodies that had been left on the
side of the road for US forces to find. They were booby trapped and
exploded when US forces went to move them. I am going to give up now,
Im tired of looking. If someone else finds an American Death caused by
this please post it.

Im also noticing a lack of casualties from anti-personnel mines. I
thought there would be a lot, but I cant find them either. A lot of
roadside bombs (IED's) but no anti- personnel mines.

here you go fanta

http://icasualties.org/oif/BY_DOD.aspx

all you have to do is click on the person identified and it will give
you te pentagon press release.

if the person was involved in an ied, small arms fire, rocket propelled
grenades whatever it will be in there.

The first 1000 names, Dennis, I find none from booby trapped bodies. I
did this before and I cant go on, its too ****ing depressing. Unless you
tell me otherwise, Im just going to assume it is not a common
occurrence.

So Sad.........