It is not wrong for a cow to eat a man, nor any other animal for that matter. And the animals do and will eat us when given the opportunity.

We are the top predator in this ecosystem and all ecosystems will have a top predator even if it were on another planet.

Now in order to respect other life you have to have more intelligence than say a cow or a lion. In their world it is eat and try not to be eaten. We have to do the same and try not to be eaten when we enter the world or be killed by one of our own kind which is actually common in the animal kingdom too.

The only thing that separates us from the animals is a higher intelligence, that is it, we are the same other wise.

They think they do. And some believe that they are here among us. These are the Draconians. This is where the legend of the vampire comes from.

I do hope you were kidding with most of this.

Yes higher intelligence does make for superiority in the animal kingdom but it is not a reason to discount the "stupid" in such a manner.

Our higher intelligence allows for us to see life in a way no other animal has the pleasure of seeing. Life as a whole. Life being a gift and life being something to be treasured in all forms. Animals cannot comprehend that but we can. All life is precious and for the most part has a role to play in the greater picture.

Hi Fusion99 and Sky,
I was by no means attacking, and with regards to morals and ethics and to respond to SkyHook as well, this is a science and philosophy forum, and this thread asks us to consider how we treat animals. That is an ethical question specifically one of morals, how and why we behave or act as we do without regard for other life.

To both you and Sky I was simply giving scenarios and asking the question of why we would NOT extend basic rights to life to other animals.

In the case of a threatening situation whether it be another animal or a human threatining our well-being, it makes sense that we would normally choose own life over the other. But we have gone well beyond defensive measures when it comes to how we treat animals.

So the question of why we feel we can use animals regardless of the pain and suffering or oblivious to the environmental effects, or even with no regard to what we are teaching children or others about objectifying life for the sole purpose of our pleasure? If we need animals to benefit in our survival might it not be more likely that we need them alive and well to serve their natural environmental functions?

So I guess the next question might be, do animals have any rights to life, or in their life?

For humans, the more traditional morals are that every human has the right to have their basic needs fulfilled, whatever is required to sustain life, food, clean water, protection from teh elements, basic medical care, and freedom to develop internal potential, a welcoming environment in which to externalize that potential. Beyond that every human has the right to certain expectations, simply because they are living and all living beings (humans originally) deserve respect by others, should have teh unhindered right to the pursuit of livelihood and freely believe, think, and speak without fearing others, while striving for fulfillment and happiness.

HOWEVER, there are two sides hence 'equal rights' which means individuals are not free of responsibility to ensure their own behavior does not impede or infringe on the equal expectations of others.

In nature most animals do not prey on humans, nor do they intend to do us harm. They are, as has been stated, simple creatures giving little thought to anything other than what nature has programmed them for.

Does that mean their life is worth less than human life? Do we even know what environmental purpose humans serve? We might further question, if we are such intelligent and reasoning beings, why do we destroy the 'natural' environment into which we were born? We kill almost every species at will and ofter for no reason other than they are different, they frighten us, they are ugly, or they are simply sub-standard life forms. No other animal in nature kills so randomly or with pleasure.

So what makes humans so much more valued? What makes humans think that human life must be met with equality between only our own species while thinking life forms that are different have no purpose but as a means to human ends?

I was being flip. With the first two answers anyway.

If I did not have to eat to live, I would probably never kill a cow to eat it. But I might. I would not enjoy the killing.

But other people have done the killing for me, and I do like steak.

Do cows have a right to life? Yes until we are hungry.

If it were not for the fact that we like to eat cows, they would not be allowed to breed and live in large numbers, and many would have never been born or lived in the first place. So in that sense, they owe us their lives. It is because we like to eat them that they exist in large numbers.

Life is life. That all life is 'precious' is an opinion. Personally I will step on a bug and swat a fly, precious or not. I will eat a steak too, because I can't live on a vegan diet. (I've tried, and I got deathly ill.)

When you are a hard core atheist who does not believe in anything 'spirit related' you tend to get all dramatic about life and death because you believe that when you are dead... you are dead end of story. You may be right, I am not disputing that belief, but it makes for a serious attitude about life being 'precious.'

Every animal has its own role to play in nature. We (humans) seem to have evolved the ability to reason which other animals have not. Yet unlike animals, we do not hunt only what we NEED to survive. We hunt for pleasure and animals are bred for food and kept in unnatural conditions. They are fed unnatural food, and many go insane from these conditions and attack each other and injure themselves. Slaughter is not without pain, and studies show that cattle led to slaughter do experience severe anxioty. They KNOW what is happening in a way they cannot explain. We separate young animals from mothers, and mated animals from each other. Just as we did with slaves. If you think animals do not feel this loss, you have been misled.

In summary, we are the only animal that kills other animals for pleasure, for convenience and use animals for painful experiments again for our convenience.

Since, as Creative said, humans are the reasoning animal, we have developed morals, it remains up to us to justify our behavior not up to other animals whose morals are limited to what nature has provided.

That all sounds very horrible. Tell me, are you vegan?

Hey There Red!

To start, there was no threat perceived....that's just how I write

I did consider the morality of the question. But if you realize you have power over something and you can manipulate it to your own ends and desires, then you really don't have to consider the morality of the situation.

Because the actions already committed back then, now and up ahead already override any second thoughts about "Is what I'm doing to this animal really wrong?". This is what we are, animals that like to eat other animals, we've just figured out the best way to always get a meal.

Does the animal have rights? Yes.
Does it's life have value? Yes.

Do we really consider the morality of what we're doing to the animal as we drink our milk, eat our cheeseburger, slip on our leather coats and suede shoes, and run to the store for fertilizer and glue? Not a second thought

Is it wrong? I'm gonna have to say no, I like all those above mentioned items from a cow, I won't lie. But we do breed them, change them to suit our needs, feed them, care for and shelter them. We consider them to be property and therein lies the animals' value, therein lies the range in which we will extend them any rights.

Do we have the right to treat all life this way? Assuredly not, there is no reason to be cruel, overhunt and extinguish a species.

But in the end we will do what we do, simply because we can.

Pretty close. Like you, I got sick when I switched. I've done a lot of web research and discovered that 'weaning' is necessary and that variety and how you cook is also important. We need oils which our previous meat eating bodies are use to getting from animal fat. That's one thing, there are a lot of other issues that affect people differently. Another thing that affected me was a sudden change to the strictly chemical ridden produce. I have switched to almost all organic and that solved another of my problems. I'm not religious about it, if I visit my folks and my mother has proudly presented her famous oxtail soup, I don't sweat it. But I have learned to bring meal fixings and prepare totally vegan meals for them, which my father really enjoys. Usually I just pass on the meat, but picking out meat from the soup is a bit rediculous if I'm still going to eat the soup.
There is a very good vegan cheese, actually melts better than its counterpart. There are a lot alternatives, but you have to find them, and there are totally organic food stores so I can bake my own breads and muffins. I grow tomatos, peppers, scallions and some herbs, combine them without fully cooking and then freeze. I take these out and make various sauses, marinars and soups in the winter. I flash freeze berries, slices of peppers, green onions, and various squash whenever I get them in bulk for cheap (usually in season) and grown nearby. Farmers markets are great.

Vegan definately takes planning and preparation, it's not really fast food at all, but I feel better have not had even a cold in over three years. And psychologically (for me) I am more at peace with my own behavior.

By the way, I normally try to chase flys out the door, pick up crawly things in the house and release them, BUT SOMETIMES, I'm in a hurry, or afraid of an unknown bug and destroy it. My son laughs at me because I always apologise to the bug. I didn't even know I was doing that till he made fun of me.

I began this whole thing in an effort to increase my own health, and discovered a peace of mind in not being a part of anothers reason for suffering. So am I healthier because of my diet or because of the peace of mind? Perhaps both.

sort of like how ants keep aphids trapped in dark holes and force then to give milk?

No, animals do not have rights. They don't need them.

I am pretty sure that animals experience pain and pleasure. And I have seen cats toy with field mice before killing them and my dog certainly seems to be brimming with pride when she brings me a dead snake, which by the way she has absolutely no interest in eating only in tearing it to pieces.

Animals do torture and kill other animals, but that isn't really what this is about. The reason they don't need rights is because they don't need to reason.

Man is the only animal which requires intellect to survive. Animals are bigger, stronger or faster; they breed quickly, have sharper senses and a whole host of adaptations that aid their survival. Most importantly they function on instinct.

Man needs to use his mind to survive. He must puzzle out problems and plan for the future. Man has also learned how important it is to work together.

If the most valuable thing a person has is their life (since nothing can be accomplished without it) and therefore survival becomes the supreme goal of each individual. Human rights are those things we have identified to be required for survival, and the list is pretty short.

If you think about it food, clothing and shelter are "things" you need to survive but you really have no "right" to them. Instead, our society guarantees you the right to live you life in a way that you deem best to achieve happiness with the proviso that you do not impinge on the rights of others to make those same choices (i.e., freedom). You have the right to keep the products of your labors since you will require those to live. Additionally, we have made a contract with each other that we will only allow violence to be initiated by an objective authority so that we do not kill each other.

I can't think of a way around this. For example, it might be nice to have a right to shelter and have a living space provided for everyone. But whatever you give to one person must be taken from someone else since things do not simply appear from no where. But if you have a right to keep what you work for, then you can work for your own shelter.

It should also be noted that I do not believe in minority rights, women's rights or gay rights. I think these are simply things that are used to confuse the issues. Since everyone is a human, then they all have human rights. (A little off-topic, I know and I apologize)

I have a problem even going vegetarian because the nearest health food stores with decent food area about 300 miles. It is extremely difficult to find good produce here too. We have one grocery store and the produce is limited and sometimes stale, limp and bruised.

I have also carried bugs and spiders out of my house rather than squash them but it always seems to depend on my mood. I have discovered the more meat a person eats, the more aggressive and violent they can be and the more irritable. Vegans I have met are gentle, patient and passive. I think if everyone were vegan, there would be no wars at all.

Sometimes I think I could live a long time on raisins and nuts. But I do like eggs and cheese a lot. For now, I still enjoy meat. I wish I did not have to eat at all.

There is a man who lives in Florida who is a sun gazer. He gets his energy from the earth and sun and has not eaten solid food for years. I would like to be able to do that.

Are vegans peaceful because the are vegan, or are people vegan because they are peaceful?

Something else maybe?

LMAO!

dunno, but I have met a few militant vegans who were anything but peaceful.

One berated me because I was buying honey which was further perpetuating the oppression of honey bees -- Whatever the f**k that means.

Do North Koreans count?



Cellulose wafers make people militant?

Like the bees give a shee-ought!

I can relate. I've met some radical vegans too. I don't mind people who choose to be vegan but to the ones who treat it like a religion, I say... mind your own business and get out of my face.

Fusion99



In our quest to make the biggest pigs, the most tender veal, the most productive cows and chickens, not to mention produce that will be bigger, last longer in the grocery case and look shiny and inviting, we have succeeded in contaminating our food sources. We have not only made living conditions of these animals pitifully and needlessly painful and a life filled with suffering but the payback is obesity, cancer causing (carcinogens) in our food, diabetes, tooth decay, unnecessary stomach problems that lead to stomach, esophageal, and colon cancer. These are the byproducts of our NOT considering the moral issues of other life. Research can be done on the computer as well as writing an opinion in a forum. It is your body, do you know what you are feeding it?

PoisonSting


In your reasoning is there any concern given for the continuance of the human species? If you care at all about the survival of future generations would it not be wise to consider the impact of your behavior in your life time on three or four (at least) generations into the future?



So you do plan for the future or is that only as far as you think you will personally live? Do you think we are winning “the war on cancer”? Is our water and food safe to eat and drink? Or are we creating more cancer with chemicals, microwaves, irradiation, and poisons in our water supplies? These are some problems a good mind would be puzzling out, but a lot of research would be necessary to discover that the problems actually exist. Will you plan for your future with money or with your mind?



You confuse me, you said “Man is the only animal which requires intellect to survive.” So now we need each other? Is one persons’ intellect inadequate all by itself? There was a time we needed animals to pull our loads, to plow our fields and we treated them with respect for the help they gave us. We needed them then before they were ever considered a main dietary source.



You do not give people enough credit. Do you really think that people are so incapable of providing for themselves – IF ALL THINGS ARE EQUAL, that is? Do not just look around you for the answer, look at other countries as well. Are we not all interconnected through our environment, through our intellects? Providing opportunity is the most helpful, and where opportunity is lacking we need to use our ‘superior intellect’ to provide the basic needs until opportunity becomes available. This is the best we can do, it is what you seem to thing we ought to do, since you have stated we NEED EACH OTHER.



What exactly do you think the issues are? It may be a little off-topic, but this may be important to the conversation because all the ‘issues’ surrounding rights, are moral ones and that’s part of what we’re discussing.

Creative


I said I felt better, happier and healthier – more at peace with my own beliefs not more peaceful. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear. I’m also not vegan, more vegetarian as I do use organic eggs and milk, helps to vary the diet a bit.