Equivocation.

Metalwing was correct to point out that light does NOT 'collide' with light, especially not in the same sense that the word was used when discussing trains.

kev posted about matter-matter interactions and asked about light-light interactions.

Your link is about light-matter interactions.

As far as I know, there are no true light-light interactions. I could definitely be wrong (I've heard speculation about using light to bend space, and causing other light to bend...). If there are, they certainly are not 'collisions' in the sense of matter-matter interactions.

Are you saying that: You agree that this fact (that measurement systems (for distance, time, mass, etc) are generally arbitrary human creations) doesn't invalidate the claim that the things measured are real?





How do you know? How do you know that you have substance? How do you know that you have physical presence?





Humanity has been dealing with the underlying reality of relativity for a century. We've incorporated it into everyday engineering, when necessary.

We have a good grasp on the fact that time dilation happens.

Who are you to declare that 'they' don't know this? Have you finished your PhD in physics yet? If not, that might be a good first step before you make such a broad and absolutely declaration of the limitations of others' understandings.

Could it be that some people do understand it, and some people don't, and those that don't understand it simply insist that the others cannot understand it, while the naysayers simply don't know enough to make that evaluation?




That's a non sequitur. I didn't say anything about trillions of miles, I assert that we don't need to go to a black hole to see relativistic effects in action. We don't need to look at black holes at all to do this.

no, it's about the protons being formed at the core of the sun, and them colliding with each other to get to the surface... it takes the protons 8 minutes to reach us from the sun, but it takes them 1000's of years to get to the surface of the sun, because of the density and colliding with other protons.... just a theory...

no, it's about the protons being formed at the core of the sun, and them colliding with each other to get to the surface... it takes the protons 8 minutes to reach us from the sun, but it takes them 1000's of years to get to the surface of the sun, because of the density and colliding with other protons.... just a theory...

It's photons, not protons. Photons are electromagnetic waves with no mass. Protons are heavy with mass and not created in the Sun. They just come from the original Hydrogen gas nucleus.

The photons take so long to get out of the Sun because they hit atoms and become absorbed, then have to be re-emitted to reduce the energy state. They come out in a random direction which makes the path out of the Sun slow.

Are you saying that: You agree that this fact (that measurement systems (for distance, time, mass, etc) are generally arbitrary human creations) doesn't invalidate the claim that the things measured are real?

How do you know? How do you know that you have substance? How do you know that you have physical presence?

you didn't have to say trillions of miles, there are no black holes that are close to us... everything they think they know about BH is based on math, nothing else... observation can lead to different math, or confirm the math they are using is correct...

you can try to insult me with your snide comments,

Have you finished your PhD in physics yet? If not, that might be a good first step before you make such a broad and absolutely declaration of the limitations of others' understandings.

Could it be that some people do understand it, and some people don't, and those that don't understand it simply insist that the others cannot understand it, while the naysayers simply don't know enough to make that evaluation?

science has been wrong before, and it will be wrong again... if you can't understand that, then go **** yourself...

I'm still curious about this. It would be nice to put this to rest.

In my opinion, no one has presented anything resembling a cogent argument against the reality of time or distance.

There was some talk about the units being arbitrary, as if this was an argument against the reality of the measured aspects. Do you agree, now, that this isn't a useful argument?




Yeah, its probably better if you don't answer. I only asked because I had hope you might be willing to re-evaluate the basis you use for picking (cherry picking?) which aspects of reality you deem real.





Why do you keep going on and on about black holes? Let's step back. I said: We don't need to go to a black hole to see relativistic effects in action. We don't need to do this, because: we see relativistic effects right here in the vicinity of the earth.

Are you going to respond to this statement about relativity here near earth with another tangent about black holes? Black holes are not required to witness relativity in action. It's that simple.







At no point have I tried to insult you. Why would you say that? Is it because I said:



That's not an insult, that a reasonable suggestion. If you want to sit here and insists "they" don't understand these things, you really ought to actually learn what it is they think they understand, and the basis they have for thinking so. Until you do, its not at all reasonable for you to be so absolutist and sweeping in your dismissal of 'their' knowledge.

Or maybe you see hidden insults buried in:



This, also, is a perfectly reasonable proposition. Do you think it isn't? Is it possible for some people to understand something, and others to not? Is it possible for those who don't understand to choose to insist that 'no one does', when really its just them who don't?

We really ought to consider these possibilities if people are going to be insisting that others cannot understand certain things, like time dilation and length contraction.







Oh, yes, this is what is so wonderful about science. It is a living, dynamic, ongoing investigation into the truth of the material universe.

This is wonderful, and is much better than insisting that certain things are simply not true, or not understood, or cannot be understood, or cannot be real, "because math" or "because measurement" or "we can't go there" or "because they were wrong before".

I get the impression from many, not just Moe, that science has gone farther in understanding basic functions of matter and energy than many realize. There are many things that science does not understand like what goes on at the center of a black hole or what happened before the big bang. However, we have learned a lot and are learning more every day.

A good example is "how to find planets around other stars?". Until recently, we couldn't tell squat because the instruments just weren't available to see, measure, or detect them. Now thousands have been found by measuring how much light is subtracted from their star as the planet passes in front of it. We can also measure the amount of "wobble" in the orbit of the star the planet causes as it orbits. We can watch black holes "feed" and locate them precisely by the high speed stars that orbit their huge mass. We can now see the supermassive black hole location at the center of the Milky Way using infrared cameras only recently developed (our supermassive black hole is about to eat a gas cloud about three times the mass of Earth giving us a chance to study the physics!).

Amazing stuff.

i agree, but they will know more in the future... i really don't think any of us are right or wrong, just not enough data to say certain things are "fact" ...

lol, i'm not convinced they know whats going on at the event horizon of a black hole, much less the core...

We can see what is going on at the event horizon of a feeding black hole. The big ones are called Quasars. We have been studying them for decades.



Some are sucking the gas from an adjacent star!



They work just the way they were predicted to work by math and physics.

We can see what is going on at the event horizon of a feeding black hole. The big ones are called Quasars. We have been studying them for decades.



Some are sucking the gas from an adjacent star!



They work just the way they were predicted to work by math and physics.

i agree, but they will know more in the future... i really don't think any of us are right or wrong, just not enough data to say certain things are "fact" ...

I get the impression from many, not just Moe, that science has gone farther in understanding basic functions of matter and energy than many realize.

Well, that's a comforting thought.

Its pretty much wrong to say that light-light interactions (that is, photo-photon collisions) delays the movement of energy from the interior of the sun to the surface by millions of years.

Honesty requires this admission.

You gotta love the complete lack of consistency, integrity, logic, or common sense that comes into play when someone retreats into radical scepticism wrt claims they dislike (oh, you can't really PROVE that!), yet blithely make sweeping, evidence-free declarations when it suits them.

Skepticism should be applied equally.

when they get closer to other objects in the universe, maybe they can say some things are fact...

take what they knew about comets before they landed on one, and the moon, mars, and venus as well... looking at something through a telescope leaves many things out... sorry your stuck on your high horse that you can't see this... but people that think they are the smartest person in the room are always like this...

Oh, fun! Do you apply the same quality and depth of thought to your conclusions about other people's thought processes as you did in your conclusions about the content of the link you presented to prove MetalWing was wrong?

It's clear to me that MetalWing and Vanaheim have knowledge and understanding of domains of science/physics that I lack.

But of course I can't trust them. MetalWing has confidence in math! Math is a commie plot. Math is just invented. Anyone can make math do whatever they want. Math killed elvis.

Plus they might be trying to get their names in a textbook!!!

Mathematically speaking, I would have to say cheeseburgers got Elvis!