Redykeulous,

I dispise abortion, but it's legal. I believe that Roe v Wade should be
overturned and state goverments should vote to allow or ban abortion. I
realize that my way isn't going to be acceptable to everyone and I
believe in democracy. While I would vote against any state law that
allowed abortion, I believe it should be on the ballet.

Spider, thereby, imposing the moral imperitive of your particular
religious beliefs on a society?

For a society to work together in unity, outside the 'personal' belief
structure of any religion, it is necessary that every person be given
certain rights. Those rights include the treatment of ones own body.

Now, to get over it, here is what I would suggest to anyone with your
belief. Pray for the person who would choose to have an abortion,
extend your open hand to help, any, in time of crisis, without offering
your judgement in it's grip. Yours, even according to your own
religion, is not to judge, yours is not the sin, you have acted as Jesus
would have. How can that reflect on you? It is not for YOU to save.
THAT, was given to Jesus exclusively, and it is presumptuous beyond ego,
that any words or law that you might affect could in any way determine a
better path to God than God has made already.

Is hypocracy a sin, worthy of hell?

Our past is our roots. We look to the past for answers to our future.
Let me ask you this. Should Native Americans just throw away their past
because they need to stop crying about the plight they have endured?
Should they just throw away their culture because it's all in the past?
Should we not learn from our mistakes because it's all in the past?

Many times we do not learn from out history.
You are asking what does it matter were we came from. I am saying it
matters a lot. Our roots about how we came about is crucial to were we
are going in this vast world of chaos.

I for one am a staunch believer in evolution. I see evolution all around
us. Your car or vehicle was evolved from the wheel. So to we must have
evolved from humble beginnings.


Ghost

The past.

If you look back and measure your progress from it you profit by it.

If you dig a ditch to delve into the very micro fabric of the past you
will eventually be so deep in the ground of the past you will be unable
to see the sky or the horizon.

Learn from the past, live in the moment, look to the future. Follow the
path you are looking at. If it is back then you have wasted the journey
to get to where you are.

Redykeulous,

Why I waste time making posts I don't know. Did you read what I wrote?
Perhaps you don't realize this...The Constitution DOES NOT give the
federal government the right to decide on abortion. Any power not given
explicitly to the Federal government belongs to the state. Which is why
I said I would like to see the states vote on abortion, rather than just
having the law forced upon us. I believe in democracy, not oligarchy.
It is YOU who are closed minded and forcing your beliefs on others when
you oppose states rights in favor of a all powerful federal government
or a Oligarchy, like the one that established Roe v Wade.

This Christian stuff sounds more Pagan the Pagans. LOL

Spider>

You are absolutely right the consititution does not allow the Federal
government to usurp the rights of the states.

However it also does not allow the states to pass laws governing the
rights of religion.

Abortion, no matter which way you see it, is purely a matter of
religious or personal moral conviction.

I DO NOT AGREE WITH ABORTION.

But I do agree that it is each persons right to decide how they feel
about it and what they will do when faced with that decision in their
own life.

And no government entity has the right to infringe upon that purely
individual decision.

AdventureBegins,

That's your opinion, but without a Constitutional amendment, you are
wrong.

Let me be clear. When I say that AdventureBegins opinion is wrong, what
I mean is that the law of the US clearly allows states to write their
own laws on abortion. You can have whatever opinion you want, but if
you believe the states cannot make laws controling abortion, you are
just plain wrong.

Spider, our thoughts must be in two different places. What did I say in
my last post that offended so greatly? I re-read the last few posts,
yours and mine and I don't understand your responce.

Ok, now I understand. The last two posts have cleared it up for me.
I'll respont in a moment.

Redykeulous wrote:

Spider, thereby, imposing the moral imperitive of your particular
religious beliefs on a society?

===========================================================================================
Redykeulous wrote:

Spider, our thoughts must be in two different places. What did I say in
my last post that offended so greatly? I re-read the last few posts,
yours and mine and I don't understand your responce.

===========================================================================================
SpiderCMB replied:

It seems to me that you didn't read my first response to my post. I
DON'T want to impose "the moral imperitive of your particular religious
beliefs on a society" I don't want to impose my morals on anyone, but I
would like to use my rights of citizenship to decide what the law should
be. Roe v Wade was one of the worst legal decisions ever and actually
established law, which the judicial branch isn't allowed to do.

Spider the constitution does not allow any state or the federal
government to write any law that infringes upon a persons practice of
relegion.

I submit to you that Abortion is by its very nature a religious choice.

Else why would so many relegions be so deeply involved in the rights and
wrongs of it.

AdventureBegins

Admendment I
--------------------------------------------------------------
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
--------------------------------------------------------------

This prohibits Congress from making such laws, a state legislation,
unless the right to freedom of religion is specified in their
constitution, is not prohibited from making such laws.

Abortion has nothing to do with religion. Before I was a Christian, I
opposed abortion. I do so on the basis of the Law and science. Every
human fetus that has been born, has grown into a human. Every human
fetus comtains human DNA. Therefore, a fetus is a human. Humans have
the right to life under the US constitution.

Spider the Bill of Rights is a basic right under the consititution.

No State can make any law that infringes upon a persons consititutional
rights under the Bill of Rights.

Abortion is an individual choice. You and I may beleive it is murder
but that is not the point. We have not the right to judge another.
Such a thing as abortion is between the mother that must make the
decision and that which she calls god. This makes it a religious
problem.

Where the confustion come in, is that I was not necessarily referring to
the US as "the society". However, if that is what you want to discuss,
I will address it.

You are correct in your description of Federal "rights" and State laws.
It is in this way, that the basic morals of most value are established
from state to state. To be specific and correct with the thought
process here, broaden my earlier post.

If there is a moral issue of great concern, it should definately be
given air time by the state. Now if the people of a particular state
(the people) agree on a law whose moral position happens to be
consistant with a particular religion, so be it.

However, recent issues, here in the US, relating to the word 'marriage'
at the Federal level, has shown that the federal laws of this country,
are dictated, at least in some degree, by religion.

THIS, supreme law, the federal law, should NEVER be so imposed, and in
truth it is being upheld, in direct violation of Amendment 1 of the
Constitution:

(Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances)

Redykeulous,

Christians are citizens with the same right to vote as anyone else. We
can use our votes to support the laws / candidates that we support.
That does not violate the imaginary rule of "Seperation of church and
state". I see no problem, it's the way the system is designed to work.

AdventureBegins,

Did you read the first Admendment? It says "Congress shall make no
law", not "No law shall be made". The states can establish a state
religion, Utah has Mormonism as their state religion.

Perhaps they do.

However in Utah as with any state you can practice any religion you
chose they do not place limits on you. To do so would infringe upon
your constitutional rights under the Bill of Rights.

Admendment I
--------------------------------------------------------------
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
--------------------------------------------------------------

The first admendment prevents Congress from making such a law, it
doesn't give anyone the right to have any religion. A state could
dictate that you have to be Catholic to live in the state, but the bill
would have to be passed by the state, which would never happen. BUT the
law would be perfectly legal under the US constitution.