Topic: godliness is next to willingness to torture
FreeToB's photo
Fri 05/01/09 08:39 AM


Word is, some of the detainees will be given a check, new clothes, a VISA and set loose in the US, walking our streets.


Poppycock! LMAO

Here we are back to Gitmo again.
Do you even realize that the Prisoners held at Gitmo are but a small fraction of those held and tortured by the CIA?

Many of who have never even been charged with a crime.


Duh!!! MILITARY prisoners are not subject to CRIMINAL law, lawyers, or trial.

Military prisoners are subject to MILITARY justice. And they don't GET trials. They get POW camp or killed!

This is a big problem. Thinking that when you take a combatant off the battlefield carrying an AK-47, RPG-7, Mines, etc is subject to get a fair hearing in a court of law is just stupid.

I still say kill em all, let ALLAH sort em out. We're doing them a favor. 72 virgins and all.

metalwing's photo
Fri 05/01/09 08:41 AM

These are people who willing to blow themselves up for their cause, why do you think torture or threats of death would be beneficial, setting aside morel objections.

Many of these people were brainwashed from the time they were old enough to speak and walk into an extremist doctrine of hatred. They in turn will raise their children in this same doctrine. Is torturing and killing out of pure hatred going to break the cycle? Or does it make us equal to them in body and mind?


You have touched on the number one problem in the "War on Terror"; the training and brainwashing from birth generations of people to hate. So far there does not seem to be a cure.

Fanta46's photo
Fri 05/01/09 08:42 AM


First of all I am a vet (Infantry) and an independent.laugh laugh laugh

The way our soldiers were treated was wrong. We used to hold a higher moral ground before Bush and would prosecute the criminals who tortured.

Now we are the criminals and have no moral ground to stand on unless we make the criminals amongst us stand up and answer to their crimes. If we dont then we lose all credibility, all trust, and appear as hypocrites to the world.

Do you seriously think killing a prisoner of war is anymore right than torture? LOL

What about the hundreds or maybe even thousands who were picked up for questioning and were innocent?



I don't believe in torture because I don't think it works. If it did work, I think it would be an option based on the situation.

You don't seem to have your facts correct on the Japan/ WWII issues. The "worst" we have done barely equates to the "least" methods used by the Japanese. They tortured thousands and many died. They had complete contempt for Americans and did not even consider us "human beings". To equate the Bush administration to the Japanese in WWII is either ignorant or dishonest. One of the big stinks after WWII was why we didn't put more of the Japanese officers to death for torturing and killing our soldiers.


Considered less than human???


Guantánamo Bay, Cuba
There is growing evidence that detainees at Guantánamo have suffered torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. Reports by FBI agents who witnessed detainee abuse - including the forcing of chained detainees to sit in their own excrement


Give yourself a dose of reality and
Dont call me ignorant or dishonest again!

FreeToB's photo
Fri 05/01/09 09:04 AM
Edited by FreeToB on Fri 05/01/09 09:06 AM



First of all I am a vet (Infantry) and an independent.laugh laugh laugh

The way our soldiers were treated was wrong. We used to hold a higher moral ground before Bush and would prosecute the criminals who tortured.

Now we are the criminals and have no moral ground to stand on unless we make the criminals amongst us stand up and answer to their crimes. If we dont then we lose all credibility, all trust, and appear as hypocrites to the world.

Do you seriously think killing a prisoner of war is anymore right than torture? LOL

What about the hundreds or maybe even thousands who were picked up for questioning and were innocent?



I don't believe in torture because I don't think it works. If it did work, I think it would be an option based on the situation.

You don't seem to have your facts correct on the Japan/ WWII issues. The "worst" we have done barely equates to the "least" methods used by the Japanese. They tortured thousands and many died. They had complete contempt for Americans and did not even consider us "human beings". To equate the Bush administration to the Japanese in WWII is either ignorant or dishonest. One of the big stinks after WWII was why we didn't put more of the Japanese officers to death for torturing and killing our soldiers.


Considered less than human???


Guantánamo Bay, Cuba
There is growing evidence that detainees at Guantánamo have suffered torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. Reports by FBI agents who witnessed detainee abuse - including the forcing of chained detainees to sit in their own excrement


Give yourself a dose of reality and
Dont call me ignorant or dishonest again!

OK, I will. You're ignorant.

Chaining detainees and forcing them to sit in thier own excrement. OK, they do that in mental istitutions here in the US!

Starving a man until he can't stand or even sit; Given filthy water to drink, just to keep im alive so they can do some of this:

Hanging a man up by his arms (behind his back) and breaking all his bones with a steel rod;
Hanging them on metal bedsprings and using electroshock on his genitals;
Suspended by meathooks while a guy slices flesh off your bone;
Beating them and dragging them on concrete until they're just ribbons of meat hanging off broken bones.

These are a few methods that our enemies use. So Im not feeling sorry for the guy that made a poop and sat in it or ws "scared" by a dog.

Lets not forget how this alwways ends. They saw off your head with a knife and videoape it so his family can see.



metalwing's photo
Fri 05/01/09 09:08 AM



First of all I am a vet (Infantry) and an independent.laugh laugh laugh

The way our soldiers were treated was wrong. We used to hold a higher moral ground before Bush and would prosecute the criminals who tortured.

Now we are the criminals and have no moral ground to stand on unless we make the criminals amongst us stand up and answer to their crimes. If we dont then we lose all credibility, all trust, and appear as hypocrites to the world.

Do you seriously think killing a prisoner of war is anymore right than torture? LOL

What about the hundreds or maybe even thousands who were picked up for questioning and were innocent?



I don't believe in torture because I don't think it works. If it did work, I think it would be an option based on the situation.

You don't seem to have your facts correct on the Japan/ WWII issues. The "worst" we have done barely equates to the "least" methods used by the Japanese. They tortured thousands and many died. They had complete contempt for Americans and did not even consider us "human beings". To equate the Bush administration to the Japanese in WWII is either ignorant or dishonest. One of the big stinks after WWII was why we didn't put more of the Japanese officers to death for torturing and killing our soldiers.


Considered less than human???


Guantánamo Bay, Cuba
There is growing evidence that detainees at Guantánamo have suffered torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. Reports by FBI agents who witnessed detainee abuse - including the forcing of chained detainees to sit in their own excrement


Give yourself a dose of reality and
Dont call me ignorant or dishonest again!


The Japanese gutted soldiers just to see how long it would take them to die! They removed skin just to see how long it would take for death to occur. If you think what the US has done, in any way, compares to what the Japanese did in WWII, you don't know what you are talking about. The Japanese were trained that they were a "master race" and that the Chinese and American prisoners were "less than human". If you did any actual research on the topic you would know this.

ThomasJB's photo
Fri 05/01/09 09:13 AM
I have a new idea about how to handle them. Let's westernize them. Let's put them nice posh air conditioned cells with access to Satellite TV (western stations only), all the porn they could ever handle, great food to fatten them up, and denial of any support in participating in religious activities. They should be treated extremely well and the guards should be encouraged to befriend them, hell let's even throw in some prostitutes, then after a year or two of this we dumb them back into their hometowns. I hypothesize that there are two possibilities for what will happen to them next. They will either make converts of their peers. Telling them how great our culture is or they will be killed by their peers as traitors.

Fanta46's photo
Fri 05/01/09 09:30 AM
Edited by Fanta46 on Fri 05/01/09 09:37 AM




First of all I am a vet (Infantry) and an independent.laugh laugh laugh

The way our soldiers were treated was wrong. We used to hold a higher moral ground before Bush and would prosecute the criminals who tortured.

Now we are the criminals and have no moral ground to stand on unless we make the criminals amongst us stand up and answer to their crimes. If we dont then we lose all credibility, all trust, and appear as hypocrites to the world.

Do you seriously think killing a prisoner of war is anymore right than torture? LOL

What about the hundreds or maybe even thousands who were picked up for questioning and were innocent?



I don't believe in torture because I don't think it works. If it did work, I think it would be an option based on the situation.

You don't seem to have your facts correct on the Japan/ WWII issues. The "worst" we have done barely equates to the "least" methods used by the Japanese. They tortured thousands and many died. They had complete contempt for Americans and did not even consider us "human beings". To equate the Bush administration to the Japanese in WWII is either ignorant or dishonest. One of the big stinks after WWII was why we didn't put more of the Japanese officers to death for torturing and killing our soldiers.


Considered less than human???


Guantánamo Bay, Cuba
There is growing evidence that detainees at Guantánamo have suffered torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. Reports by FBI agents who witnessed detainee abuse - including the forcing of chained detainees to sit in their own excrement


Give yourself a dose of reality and
Dont call me ignorant or dishonest again!

OK, I will. You're ignorant.

Chaining detainees and forcing them to sit in thier own excrement. OK, they do that in mental istitutions here in the US!

Starving a man until he can't stand or even sit; Given filthy water to drink, just to keep im alive so they can do some of this:

Hanging a man up by his arms (behind his back) and breaking all his bones with a steel rod;
Hanging them on metal bedsprings and using electroshock on his genitals;
Suspended by meathooks while a guy slices flesh off your bone;
Beating them and dragging them on concrete until they're just ribbons of meat hanging off broken bones.

These are a few methods that our enemies use. So Im not feeling sorry for the guy that made a poop and sat in it or ws "scared" by a dog.

Lets not forget how this alwways ends. They saw off your head with a knife and videoape it so his family can see.





How would you even know?

One of the reasons my brothers and me served was to fight against those who would apply these inhuman practices.
To better the world.
Not to become as low as them, As you would have us become.
We were willing to lay our lives on the line, knowing that if captured we might well suffer this torture, so that others could not get away treating humans like dogs.

We recognized that we were no better than hypocrites and dirt ourselves if we played by the same rules.
We preferred to hold our heads high and exclaim,
"We are Americans!"
We were better than that!
We were men!
When examining what ignorance is, examine your words.

FreeToB's photo
Fri 05/01/09 09:39 AM

I have a new idea about how to handle them. Let's westernize them. Let's put them nice posh air conditioned cells with access to Satellite TV (western stations only), all the porn they could ever handle, great food to fatten them up, and denial of any support in participating in religious activities. They should be treated extremely well and the guards should be encouraged to befriend them, hell let's even throw in some prostitutes, then after a year or two of this we dumb them back into their hometowns. I hypothesize that there are two possibilities for what will happen to them next. They will either make converts of their peers. Telling them how great our culture is or they will be killed by their peers as traitors.


In Somalia and Indonesia, and possiby even in Iraq, feeding the people and making thier lives better would probably help a great deal in preventing them from being convinced that radical Islamic militism is the way to go. But we'd have to kill the warlords and Mullahs first...those feeding them now and preaching the better future to them. And we would have to basically overthrow the "government" there to ensure that the population is getting the stuff.

In Afghanistan, the Swat valley in Pakistan (actually all of North/Northwestern Pakistan), only killing them off en-masse is going to do any good. The entire adult population is indoctrinated in violence and radical Islam and a major distrust of any government or non-religious authority..and the youngsters are as well. Violence and fear is truly all that they understand. How are you going to talk to a kid whose 12th birthday present is an AKM and who has been taught that manhood means fighting a Jihad and that we are not only bad (which we probably are) but Satan himself? You can't.

Take no prisoners and fight an active, not reactive war against these people or we are going to be fighting it forever. And, we will lose if we fight it in a limited way like Vietnam, Somalia and Iraq right now.

ThomasJB's photo
Fri 05/01/09 09:40 AM

How would you even know?

One of the reasons my brothers and me served was to fight against those who would apply these inhuman practices.
To better the world.
Not to become as low as them, As you would have us become.
We were willing to lay our lives on the line, knowing that if captured we might well suffer this torture, so that others could not get away treating humans like dogs.

We recognized that we were no better than hypocrites and dirt ourselves if we played by the same rules.
We preferred to hold our heads high and exclaim,
"We are Americans!"
We were better than that!
We were men!
When examining what ignorance is, examine your words.


:thumbsup:

Fanta46's photo
Fri 05/01/09 09:52 AM



Word is, some of the detainees will be given a check, new clothes, a VISA and set loose in the US, walking our streets.


Poppycock! LMAO

Here we are back to Gitmo again.
Do you even realize that the Prisoners held at Gitmo are but a small fraction of those held and tortured by the CIA?

Many of who have never even been charged with a crime.


Duh!!! MILITARY prisoners are not subject to CRIMINAL law, lawyers, or trial.

Military prisoners are subject to MILITARY justice. And they don't GET trials. They get POW camp or killed!

This is a big problem. Thinking that when you take a combatant off the battlefield carrying an AK-47, RPG-7, Mines, etc is subject to get a fair hearing in a court of law is just stupid.

I still say kill em all, let ALLAH sort em out. We're doing them a favor. 72 virgins and all.


Tell that to Omar!

Omar Khadr, a Canadian who was 14 or 15 when he was accused of killing an American soldier with a grenade during a 2002 battle in Afghanistan. Montalvo represents Mohammed Jawad who is accused of throwing a grenade that injured two American soldiers and their interpreter in Afghanistan in 2002, when he was 16 or 17.


Tell him he cant be tried!

He was shot during the battle and survived.
For seven years he's been charged and held for murder!


POW?
LOL
Bush made up the rules as he went!
The Man had no morals!
No ethics,
and he is a coward!

Winx's photo
Fri 05/01/09 10:26 AM




First of all I am a vet (Infantry) and an independent.laugh laugh laugh

The way our soldiers were treated was wrong. We used to hold a higher moral ground before Bush and would prosecute the criminals who tortured.

Now we are the criminals and have no moral ground to stand on unless we make the criminals amongst us stand up and answer to their crimes. If we dont then we lose all credibility, all trust, and appear as hypocrites to the world.

Do you seriously think killing a prisoner of war is anymore right than torture? LOL

What about the hundreds or maybe even thousands who were picked up for questioning and were innocent?



I don't believe in torture because I don't think it works. If it did work, I think it would be an option based on the situation.

You don't seem to have your facts correct on the Japan/ WWII issues. The "worst" we have done barely equates to the "least" methods used by the Japanese. They tortured thousands and many died. They had complete contempt for Americans and did not even consider us "human beings". To equate the Bush administration to the Japanese in WWII is either ignorant or dishonest. One of the big stinks after WWII was why we didn't put more of the Japanese officers to death for torturing and killing our soldiers.


Considered less than human???


Guantánamo Bay, Cuba
There is growing evidence that detainees at Guantánamo have suffered torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. Reports by FBI agents who witnessed detainee abuse - including the forcing of chained detainees to sit in their own excrement


Give yourself a dose of reality and
Dont call me ignorant or dishonest again!

OK, I will. You're ignorant.

Chaining detainees and forcing them to sit in thier own excrement. OK, they do that in mental istitutions here in the US!




Mental institutions don't do that anymore.

yellowrose10's photo
Fri 05/01/09 10:50 AM
sorry but...first..i think everyone knows how I feel about surveys and polls. second...i wonder how many non-religious think the same. third...i've never connected my beliefs with that in any way.

as far as Texas goes...Texas isn't the only state that has the death penalty....laugh

ThomasJB's photo
Fri 05/01/09 10:55 AM

sorry but...first..i think everyone knows how I feel about surveys and polls. second...i wonder how many non-religious think the same. third...i've never connected my beliefs with that in any way.

as far as Texas goes...Texas isn't the only state that has the death penalty....laugh

but Texas kills more people than any other state.

yellowrose10's photo
Fri 05/01/09 10:57 AM


sorry but...first..i think everyone knows how I feel about surveys and polls. second...i wonder how many non-religious think the same. third...i've never connected my beliefs with that in any way.

as far as Texas goes...Texas isn't the only state that has the death penalty....laugh

but Texas kills more people than any other state.


we are also the 2nd largest state and a border state....people passing throught exas in or out of mexico. IMO if someone is in a state with the death penalty...don't do the crime there.

MirrorMirror's photo
Fri 05/01/09 10:58 AM
flowerforyou Obviously the people that are for torture are not christians since they dont seem to know that Jesus was tortured to death.flowerforyouThey are just a bunch of closet S&M pervertslaugh

Winx's photo
Fri 05/01/09 11:02 AM
Jesus preached non-violence.

metalwing's photo
Fri 05/01/09 04:39 PM

Jesus preached non-violence.


He did a bit of bashing about with the money changers!:smile:

willing2's photo
Fri 05/01/09 05:09 PM
Edited by willing2 on Fri 05/01/09 05:11 PM

flowerforyou Obviously the people that are for torture are not christians since they dont seem to know that Jesus was tortured to death.flowerforyouThey are just a bunch of closet S&M pervertslaugh


MirrorMirror's photo
Fri 05/01/09 05:17 PM
Edited by MirrorMirror on Fri 05/01/09 05:22 PM


flowerforyou Obviously the people that are for torture are not christians since they dont seem to know that Jesus was tortured to death.flowerforyouThey are just a bunch of closet S&M pervertslaugh


laugh Not you Willingdrinks flowerforyou I was referring to the Bush Administration and the people that actually did the torture.flowerforyou

willing2's photo
Fri 05/01/09 06:05 PM



flowerforyou Obviously the people that are for torture are not christians since they dont seem to know that Jesus was tortured to death.flowerforyouThey are just a bunch of closet S&M pervertslaugh


laugh Not you Willingdrinks flowerforyou I was referring to the Bush Administration and the people that actually did the torture.flowerforyou

Uh-oh, I guess I'm outa' th' closet now!!laugh