Do we have to wait and watch other countries do what we should be doing out of our own conscience?

We need to burn the Bush for our own credibility's sake!!


Spanish judge opens Guantanamo investigation


MADRID – Spain's top investigative magistrate opened an investigation into the Bush administration Wednesday over alleged torture of terror suspects at Guantanamo Bay.

Judge Baltasar Garzon said documents declassified by the new U.S. government suggest the practice was systematic.

Garzon said he was acting under Spain's observance of the principle of universal justice, which allows crimes allegedly committed in other countries to be prosecuted in Spain.

Garzon's move is separate from a complaint by human rights lawyers that seeks charges against six specific Bush administration officials they accuse of creating a legal framework to permit torture of suspects at Guantanamo Bay and other U.S. detention facilities.

Spanish prosecutors on April 17 said any such probe should be carried out by the U.S. and recommended against it being launched in Spain. Garzon originally had that case, but ultimately it was transferred to another judge.

Now, Garzon is opening a probe into "possible material authors" of torture, accomplices and those who gave torture orders, although he does not name anyone specifically.

In a 10-page writ, he said documents on Bush-era treatment of prisoners, recently declassified by the Obama administration, "reveal what had been just an intuition: an authorized and systematic plan of torture and mistreatment of person denied freedom without any charge whatsoever and without the rights enjoyed by any detainee."

Garzon cited media accounts of the documents and said he would ask the U.S. to send the documents to him.

He said he is also acting on the basis of accounts by four former Guantanamo inmates who have alleged in Spanish courts that they were tortured at that U.S. prison in eastern Cuba.

All four were once accused of belonging to a Spanish al-Qaida cell but eventually cleared of the accusations. One is a Spanish citizen, another is a Moroccan citizen who has lived in Spain for more than a decade and the other two are residents of Britain.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090429/ap_on_re_eu/eu_spain_us_torture

why ask why

I'm not sure whats changed but back in the day, if you were a combatant against ANY army and were not wearing a uniform, you were summarily shot for being a spy...on the spot. Screw Gitmo, I say we just get back to the business of KILLING our enemies. Following the line of reason that everyone should get a trial, a nice comfy bed, and maybe a teddy bear to sleep with is going to shackle our military from doing the business that they do...KILLING PEOPLE.

People in other countries did not get raised like the liberals and fags here did in the 70s. The world does NOT operate as liberals would like..on niceties and manners. The globe is a mean place and wars are won by superior intelligence, tactics and firepower. This liberal agenda is going to be the end of us as a superpower. And when that goes, we're all gonna be speaking Chinese.

I was against the 2nd Gulf War from the start and EVERYONE I knew called me a communist or traitor. But I knew that Iraq had NOTHING to do with Al Quaeda and was no threat to us. But the way I see it, once we're there...kill everything moving and get the hell out. Just what we didn't need, another Vietnam or Somalia.

We need to get the hell out of the UN. This is the UNited States of America and we are who we are because of OUR beiefs and OUR strengths, not the general population of earths.

too let other countries bring forth any allegations and charges relieves the issue of partisan politics

and opens it up to the world court

relieving the us political scene from accusations persecution

kinda like the justice system saying we can not let criminal [a] be exicuted for rape and murder of victim [z] until [a] is tried for victim [x] or there will be no justice for victim [x]

will [a] be less punished if not tried for victim [x]

i think not

so what does it matter who does the deed for what as long as the deed is done

after all let them spend the money

How about credibility, reliability, trust, quilt by compliance, assurance, Justice, and America's reputation?

Fer one, who knows how many Politicians holding seats today might be implicated.
On the other hand, might be a good idea to clean the house.

What if your just a person defending your home?

have you check the reputation around the world

and actually it will more than likely improve by the cooperation with world court more so than if the united states did the investigation its self

kinda like when the police in your town handles the wrongful death case when someone is shoot by the police in your town

it brings better respect to have an outside source do the investigating less chance of corrupting the investigation (unless you thing the u s can buy of spain and any other country involved)

but if the u s does the investigation and finds no fault then the reputation drops even further

but hey

what do i know

If we are truly a Gov of The People, then arent we irresponsible not to burn the Bush?

After all we did elect him.
We trusted him to represent us.

do you really believe this country is still by the people for the people


i think it is not

it is by the fed res board for the fed res board (those that control the money control the power)

If you think any of those (credibility, reliability, trust, assurance) things actually won a war, you need to read un-revised history. Thats all great for us...here n the US as citizens. But it just doesn't work in the global context. What wars have we WON in your time...and how? The 1st Iraq war...by going in there and wasting everyone that stood in our way. Now, what wars can you say that we have lost..and why. Somalia, Vietnam, Afghanistan, the last Iraq war? We have not won them. The first two we gave up on because it would have required what won Iraq 1. And make no mistake..we ARE at war with Extremist Muslims..and we ARE losing with this Mr Nice Guy strategy. Tell me where Im factually wrong.

Our "reputation" around the world is that we are softies. That we will negotiate, that we will not fight a decisive battle, that we will rebuild what we tear down..better than it ever was. To our enemies, we are carrying the biggest stick of all...but are afraid to use it. We cow down to this "World Court" and the UN whose primary objective now is to bring us down. To "put us in our place".
If you are fat and rich from our own work or not, and have had starving neighbors forever, it's not wise to let them decide what our fate should be. Kinda stupid actually.

You need some lessons on how Arabs operate and THINK. To negotiate is to admit defeat. Period. To talk when there is a fight to die for makes you a coward. The world does not think as we do. The world does not operate as we think it should...by diplomacy and mutual cooperation, especially the Arab world. They respect strength and the will to kill and die for a cause. We'll be in Iraq and Afghanistan forever at this rate...and watch...Pakistan when the Taliban gets thier hands on the tactical nukes there. Hopefully, we'll go in there and take them ut before that happens. And it will if we don't.

And those politicians that supported him. Fair is fair.

I think **** Cheney and George Bush should face trials for manipulating the truth and putting Americans in a war for Halliburton, Mr. Cheneys company, who just so happens to have gotten the worlds largest no-bid contract for work in Iraq. I also believe that they should be brought to justice for the financial crisis that George Bush directly created by removing SEC regulations and enforcements so his Wall Street buddies could play fast and loose with our, our childrens and our grandchildrens futures. But IN OUR COUNTRY and BY OUR COURTS.

In my opinion, the root cause of the financial meltdown was Bill Clinton and the Community Reivestment act that basically (exactly) forced lending institutions to sell homes to people who HAD NO MONEY OR JOBS...and made it against the law to check thier incomes or the truth of thier statements!! When millions people "bought" homes under this act, the price of housing was artificfially inflated because of the "demand". Thats why my house, which I bought for 42 grand is now "worth" over 100.

If you think of it, our problem is simple. Corruption in government...plain and simple. 100 years ago, every single member of Congress would have been executed for treason for tearing this country down as it has.

The issue or universal or international jurisdiction is an interesting one. It is a complex tangle that countries seem to struggle with changes in their individual governments and circumstances along with world changes.

I think it is clear that Spain has an interest in this issue. Five were after all Spanish citizens.

Here is an interesting article that folks should consider reading regarding this issue. I hope you find it helpful when thinking about this issue.

http://www.casavaria.com/cafesentido/2009/04/23/2317/bolton-asserts-only-the-us-has-international-jurisdiction/

I read it. Bolton was and is an idiot. As are most politicians, whose primary interest is power, and secondarily, money, which for them is just a means to that end..power.

If we are in a declared war, combatants on the battlefield should be killed or captured. If captured, in war, they are detained in prisoner of war camps >>>for the duration<<<. Because the extremist muslims HAVE declared war on the US and defined the battlefields themselves and the duration as never-ending, they're in it for the long haul when they CHOOSE to fight. In a declared war, by international law, if a combatant is not in uniform, he is a spy and subject to execution in the field. Again, they made thier beds....

I'm not smart enough to define a solution to international laws concerning who has the right to try whom. It is a tough question. But if each country prosecuted thier own citizens accused of violating international laws..and actually DID it, that would solve the issue. But just like the piracy thing right now, Africans are not going to prosecute Africans on the behalf of the U.S. or any other government. Muslims certainly aren't going to prosecute Muslims, regardless of nationality, when they are percieved as fighting a Jihad. So it's up to us to get any justice that we feel is needed.

This, in my opinion, is just further confirmation that we need to be OUT OF THE UN and taking care of our own business.

First,
Yes it has won us wars!
It won against cruelty, hate, and barbarianism!
We won humanity, morals, civilization, and the right to hold our heads high knowing we were American.

It also won us Allies and respect in the world.

This question essentially means why don't we prosecute, which means why don't democrats prosecute.

And the answer is because democrats are just as guilty of what was done, and even more is planned.

Remaining untouchable has more value then honesty.

Nogames has it here, if we burn the Bush, we have to burn Pelosi, Obama, Rockefeller and anyone else who in government who knew and ran interference to the rule of law.

They're all accomplices to torture and murder.

I agree WM.
Do any of ya'll see a trend in Gov?
When the popularity starts to drop, there's a big media bang about something that appeases the liberal and they all go BHO proud.
Then, a couple days later, no more news about it.
I really doubt there will be any Bush burning going on in my lifetime.