http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68X1wbKHX34&feature=rec-HM-rev-rn This is one smart Hillbilly. I agree with this message.

Thanks for the link. Watched it... Impeccable logic, no doubt...
There's no debating the logic behind atheism in practicle terms.
As a former on-again off-again atheist myself, I get it as to why anyone would not believe in what can't be displayed, measured or mapped.
I think most Christians that I know understand where non-believers are coming from as far as wanting to debunk myths and dispel falsehoods. On the surface, it seems meritorious and correct but there's more than meets the eye to "theism".
The atheists miss the point regarding the theist connection between their faith in their hoped for diety (In my case, God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit, "The Holy Trinity")
Misintepreting the nature of the relationship between their faith and the resulting outlooks and changes in their lives attributed to the same...
I cringe everytime I hear another Christian falter in their attempt to witness to someone, especially if that someone isn't receptive.
Everyone makes mistakes including Christians. That doesn't mean their statements are always unfounded but it does illustrate the burden to prove, if taken on, is a futile task at best.

It's not the Christian's mission to prove anymore than it is the atheist's mission to accept God (any god, any greater outside influence).

"God is not logical to man". I submit that this statement is both true and un-true.
God isn't logical, can not be understood, can not be ruled in, can also not be ruled out...
Who knows everything? I don't...
I don't need to know everything...I'm not sure I'd even remotely enjoy knowing everything... That in fact is what I do know most of all, the simple fact that I don't know everything.
When you understand this, as I do, you begin to understand the nature of everything.
You can't see two sides of the same object, but they're both there.
Science can measure anything it can regularly predict with success, but that still leaves everything it can not predict with success, which is always going to be infinitely more than what it can predict.
There are two sides to the universe, or to the infinite number of universes.
We can not see the other side. It is hidden from us as much as the solar system is to an ant...
That's the crux...What I refer to respectfully as "God", is the spiritual pull of everything we can not measure, visualize, or even imagine.
It is a benign but purely singular knowing of everything beyond our ken...
The lessons in the bible are conveyed in both historical, as well as in methaphoric terms which were relatable to the times they were written in. We have the ability to analyze the past and gather terms and references but they had no way to see the future. It's up to us not to misinterpret how the lessons were meant by focusing mainly on what in today's terminology is seemingly contradictory.
The bible has deep meaning for us that strongly feel the pull I described. Mostly in parables at first, then in spiritual understanding.
For all I know, or any Christian knows, there are many paths to follow to the ultimate journey.
Our Bible tells us there is only one way, but that's for us to accept, not to impose. One of our deepest convictions is that the first gift from God was free will. Free for you, free for me...He breathed life into us, but he did not chain our minds.
It's not for us to judge...Not even each other...
For all I know on judgement day anyone reading this might be ahead of me in line through the Pearly gates. That goes for even those who's beliefs are completely against my own.
I don't know the mind of God, or his plan for anyone else. I only have a a deep and abiding sense in my own heart that he pulls at me and part of satisfying that attraction is understanding the humble and yet powerful testimony of Jesus Christ and his crucifiction on the Cross.
I don't "know" that I'll be ahead of anyone on this planet at the ultimate conclusion. That goes for any religion or faith.
My faith simply calls me to share the good news is all... After sharing it, I have humble gratitude for allowing me to do so, but I'm also instructed to not force the message in any way.

Evolution... hmmm... It seems more and more to be a fact in it's entirety. Any thinking person would have to see the evidence as solid.
It still doesn't negate God, or the essence of the bible's instruction.
I wasn't there. I didn't see us evolve from ooze but I can see the evidence.
It still doesn't deny the existence of majestic and loving force behind it.
Otherworldly beings...Other sentient life forms... I admit they're possible, if not probable.
It's not for me to know about just yet. It's one of those immeasurable things...
I can imagine in my minds eye some future first visit where we get to exchange questions and answers with some alien race like " Is there a God?" and then wouldn't it be ironic to hear them reply " heck if we know, we came all this way to ask you!"
I can go on and on, but I've already had more than 2 cents worth...

Goodnight all

Allen I cannot speak for other atheists, but I get the connection that theist speak of I am not without these feelings, I was born an atheist like we all are, but was not always one, and I think any kind of idea that makes you believe you are connected to an ultimate authority can be a dangerous thing especially when it morphs into a belief that this authority reveals things to you.

Moderate or not this kind of thinking can and does go wrong on massive scales. To institutionalize it is to add gas to the fire.

Very true Allen... I just want to add that to talk about "the book" or the church...(The bible) as some dangerous institution...well is laughable.

People learn most things from the past...that would include knowledge of God & unlike in the days of old where people were only told what the church wanted them to hear, God's word is there for all the read for themselves.

To think that someone should exclude biblical history & knowledge of God & the spirit world, in the school of knowledge is a ridiculous notion. The only thing danerous here is man's control freak nature & thirst for self agrandizment at the expense of true knowledge that is able to save. See? That sort of thinking is just as dangerous in the secular human being.

I'll stick with God's rules thank you very much?

I feel that I am connected to all things in that the universe is a constant exchange of energy and information.

I get the feeling that the universe is alive and conscious in that it shares information within and throughout itself; kind of like our brain passes impulses and information throughout our bodies via electricity and the synopsis in the brain.

I do not believe in any ultimate authority for my personal life, or any almighty all knowing deities but I do acknowledge that there are authorities in the overall workings of this world, and they carry or handle certain responsibilities.

I hold to the idea that no one has authority over me unless I give my permission and relinquish my authority for self to them.

I don't divide the physical material world from the unknown spiritual worlds as I believe they are all here right now operating together intricately as a whole.

I don't divide universal intelligence into men and gods or the creator and the created.

I do believe in intelligent life that is very different from us as humans and I believe in material worlds that may exist unseen and undetected by our physical senses.

The more my world view comes together the more I see myself as an atheist if by "theist" it means the belief in the definition of "God" is a separate (and superior authoritative) entity from man.

I think the proof is in the pudding.

9-11 shows what religion can do when it comes to the feeling of righteousness.

You can laugh all you want, and only look at your own life as an example, but that is narrow minded.

I agree that any idealism that professes "I am better than you. I have something over you. I am more worthy than you. I have power on my side."

Is flawed AND dangerous.

That being said I can only humbly offer that my faith makes no such proclamations. My faith teaches that we are ALL God's children and that only he can judge us.
Christians who follow the basic precept of seeking to "be like Christ" know and practice this creed with the required humility implicit to the goal.
There are however many folks who would contaminate that altruistic desire for their own selfish gains by claiming the mantle of Christianhood while not practicing what they preach.
This is both evil and vile, but it's not the way of Christ.
I have no squabble with non-believers or faiths different from my own. My only problem is with those who attack my faith based on what they don't know or understand about it.
If you don't believe, that's fine, just please don't attack me or disparage me because I do...

You missed the point bill... I was referring to the sin prone humanity as the real problem. Secularists also make mistakes that lead to societal problems as well. You want to just exclude religion or God from the arena of ideas & knowledge. That in itself is also dangerous.

There is something to be said for corporate AGREEMENT about something. It always starts with one & grows until corporately it brings a change in the atmosphere....for better or for worse. It affects nations, cultures & societies.

I will leave it at that.

I don't believe as you do, and I certainly don't disparage you for what you believe.

Now if everyone would do that to each other we could all be great friends.

Some one here don't see the control freaks in religion and the danger to the gullable among us. Talk about a thirst...

So Allen am I to assume you do not feel god has revealed any information in regards to your religion, nor has god given you a way toward eternal salvation?

Not at all... Since you asked me specifically, I'd love to tell you all about what what God has revealed to me.
It's been revealed to me that he exist as a living God. That he can not have sin in his presence. That since man rejected his instruction to not sin, man had removed himself from God's presence himself.
God loves man, inspite of our sinful nature so he came to earth in the form of a man to give us a way out through his grace.
That way is accepting and believing Jesus Christ not only lived a sinless life but that he was sacrificed in substitute for our sin.
God himself gave us a way to avoid eternal separation from him but unless we accept and then embrace this promise, he won't force the issue because he's a gentleman, not a controller.
God has revealed his presence to me, but I don't expect anyone else to accept it just because I give testimony to it. Instead I'd hope that they search their own hearts and seek to understand God's amazing and awesome power through their own experiences with the resulting changes in their spirits.
My salvation has been bought and paid for by Christ's crucifixion. I only had to try to begin to understand it before the Holy spirit began to minister to me and help me accept and then experience God's love and awesomeness, and REALITY...

That video will never account for Radical Religious folks insatiable need to do away with things and people that scare them. They need the bible to justify their dislike of certain people and certain things. Just as the authors of the bible needed justifications for their own agendas, prejudices and dislikes.

So that simple answer wouldn't work for them.

So how did he reveal this to you?

Ok... Since you again asked me directly, which I respect, I owe you the best answer that's within my capability to give...

The short answer is through his spirit, but I'll try to elaborate to give the best explanation that I can.

I'm big time into scuba diving. It's a hobby I enjoy for many reasons. Sometimes folks who've never tried it ask me what it's like.
I can't really sufficiantly answer that one either... I mean, I can tell them "well... it's very serene but not at all sedate. It's like entering another realm where the laws of this topside existence don't apply fully. You're able to travel freely and effortlessly in not only left to right, back to front, but also upwards and downwards, like flying."
I can't fully describe it but it exist all the same. All anyone has to do is to do it themselves and then they know, but they're faced with the same dilemma when they're asked the same question.

I'm also an avid equestrian. I love horses, always have...
There's something indiscribable about being on a good horse in open country. You could call it freedom, or love of nature, even just plain old wanderlust, but it's more than that. It's more than the sum of its parts. It really is indescribable to folks that either don't have the love I have for it...

Same with guitar... Been playing since I was a kid. Lots of people love music but only practiced musicians know what being in the zone is like. When they're able to just turn off all the outside noise and completely just let the music flow through them effortlessly.
It's not really something you can satisfactorily define in words.

When God speaks to my spirit, it's like all these things on mega-steroids and more. It's undeniable. It comes without any heaviness, without any forcefullness yet it's infinetly more awesome than any other type of conciousness I'm aware of...
It's a pure and quite personal love that's abiding and guiding. It's a still and quiet whisper that's unmistakable with any sound or anything I've ever experienced. It has absolutely no malice or malignance. It cradles me body, soul and mind. I can not deny or refuse it, nor would I ever want to because it's the most perfect experience of my life.

It's indescribable and undeniable. I highly recommend the experience, but it's like most worthwhile things, you have to want it to have it.

I wish I could answer more fully than this but I hope you can at least get the guist of it.
God reveals enough to help us understand what we're dealing with only as much as our capacity and desire will let us digest it and comprehend him.

Allenaqua,

Seriously, I have experienced all of that but I do not interpret it as proof of God or proof that the Christian religion's idea of "God" is the right one or the only one.

(I am practically an atheist in that regard.)

What you describe is very generic feeling of divine love and wonder of our existence and of life itself.

It is JOY, pure and simple.

What you describe is the joy I have felt deep down in my being for as long as I can remember. It comes with happiness and peace no matter what is happening around me.



Thanks for sharing.

It is the energy of the star and the sun in my tarot deck.

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Yes thank you Allen, I can respect and sincerely appreciate the feelings your talking about. I have had many such experiences in my life and continue to have them, in fact I nearly died in a car wreck in february and have been seeking out these feelings since then in the form of music and have redoubled my desire to learn of the natural world.

However just like JB has said I do not conclude from these experiences the same ultimate meaning that a religious person might.

I think Sam Harris actually puts it quite eloquently here in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLIKAyzeIw4&feature=rec-HM-rev-rn

Nice video Billy, thanks!

I dunno Miss Jeaniebean, but I don't think I'd ever use the terms "generic" and "divine" in the same sentence...One negates the other, in my way of thinking.

There's nothing generic about God's Holy Spirit.

No disrespect but I also wouldn't term it as "joy, pure and simple", but I might instead call it pure and radiant joy...