BrettBrett,

You said,

"People are not entitled to express their opinions, just merely have them. For, to be entitled to express your opinion, is to be held unaccountable for the act of expression.."


They can express their opinions and have them acknowledged here.

We like them to have unbiased facts in the political threads.
But..opinions are heard too.

You're welcome, Mirror.

I'm using Firefox with my new computer. I was using IE on my old one.

Wish I would get these quote things right.




Well, I do.

Well, if your ignoring response is a sermon like that, then I'd hate to be noticed by you. It would probably take hours to read.


BTW: It would be nice if you'd get your quotes right for a change, I don't like to edit every time.

again, I hate being put into the position of defending IE... so, I'm not going to... infact, the main idea of my statement had little to nothing to do with IE. It was about making general statements with no substance..

and in regards to your greenbean analogy.. it's not a good analogy for the context of my statement, and the one prior. As in your analogy you gave a specification (taste), and since your analogy reference is an opinion based 'solely' on interpetation in relativity to how that person likes or dislikes greenbeans, it's an irrefutible arguement to suggest otherwise. If I can take your analogy further, If a person were to say, "Greenbeans suck!"... wouldn't you need further clarification of why it sucks? Or would you just make presumptions. What if he never tasted them? What if he thought they sucked simply because he read on an OpenSource supporter community tech website that they did. Not ever having researched why? THAT, would make that person ignorant. ( not neccessarily a uniformed or uninformed idiot )


I didn't allow for an explaination, when the lack of explaination triggered my rant. But than again, since the point of my rant was to point out making statements with the lack of explaination were trivial and uninformative, and not neccessarily to the point of gaining further clarification on such as statement. I would say, irregardless of whether he has legitament claims for why it sucks, he was still suggesting so in an uninformative manner, and should probably make that correction in future statements.

I'm not sure if I can make this point more clear, It's not what you know.. it's how you communicate it. If a person has knowledge on a topic, they usually, and rightfully, offer that knowledge. These kind of statements on this topic, namely browser preference, are ALL TOO COMMONLY GENERALIZED, and lack specifics. That is the reason for my rant.

By the way, I already remarked on the Topic poster's article reference on that 'security flaw' of IE. I'm also going to reference your own statement in Queen's post a week back when she claimed that Macintosh was virus free... It's a program, and the only reason you hear more warnings about Microsoft's IE flaws, is because it's a target of the OpenSource community and his highly utilized, so it's a market ploy. It's a point of perception, where most people who make these discoveries are attempting to find them. It takes the attempt, to find it. People are just not attempting, or reporting the flaws in these other Browsers as frequently. EVERY program is vulnerble to security flaws. Like the articles suggested 'flaw', there are many IE flaws that are dependent on a circumstances(i.e. a system that was already compromised and a feature that is being utilized) inorder to utilize an exposed security flaw. The fact of the matter is IE's security is constantly being tested, and reported. These other browsers are not. Instead they are focusing on features and speed, which makes them highly appealing. Don't take these things on face value, try to be a little more skeptical in what you read. Research a bit.





did you just disregard my statement here, I don't have a preference. I see them as tools. When I program Jscript, I use IE. When I program Javascript, I use Firefox. When I program ECMAscript I use both.

When I check my mail, I use Firefox. When I check myspace I use IE. I use them both frequently.

And as far as what I've read, both Opera 9.5 and Safari 3.1 are much faster, reliable, and secure than both IE 8.0 beta and Firefox 3.0 beta, but they aren't as utilized, or have the community support for that matter, so I don't code with them in mind. Hench, I have no need to use them, and don't.

And, I am now looking forward to checking out Google Chrome, because I'm thinking it's going to take the market right out from underneath Firefox, IE, and Opera. Safari is pretty well safe I think, as it's the fastest browser out right now, and it isn't a 3rd party browsers (except the windows version of course).

yeah, these quotes tags are a bit messed up, that's for sure...

rather, I keep messing them up by put "{" instead of "["

haha.. sorry

I only use IE for work. I don't have a choice there.

I am a consumer. I buy whatever the hell I want regardless of whether you personally approve or not.


you can regard me as anything you choose. It's the common thing for American companies to blame the consumers for not wanting their products

I don't care how much stock you own in Microsoft and how condescending and dismissive you want to be towards the people who don't want their products


that is not my job. My only job is to use a system that I like. I don't like IE and refuse to use it. whether you approve or not

I never said opinions shouldn't be heard; infact, I encourage more specifics from people's opinions, So I obviously support hearing them.

that statement was in reference to the difference of entitlement and right. I put an example in there to explain the difference.

Here's another example, A judge is entitled to make a ruling. Where as no one would hold a judge accountable for the act of ruling (i.e. he is required to make a ruling, and no one would expect him to have the choice not to make a ruling). People will still hold the judge accountable for WHAT he ruled. It's the difference of expression an opinion and the opinion itself, but reversed. In this example, the act is the entitlement, and the type of ruling is something you can hold the judge accountable for (i.e. whether he over turned the jury's decision, or disregarded legally submitted evidence). You can have a judge thrown off the bench, btw. You can choose not to elect an official judge. This is the way of things. It's not going to change unless people's perception of entitlements and rights changes.

No offense, but I don't care about the judge. He isn't here right now.

I care about the folks on this site and their personal opinions. This site is a place where we can share those opinions. It is fun to see people's opinions from different walks of life. We do NOT stifle such opinions unless they are harmful to others.

If the person has an opinion, they're welcome to back it up with facts. It is not a requirement, though, because this is a DATING/SOCIAL site.

But...if you wander into the political threads, they do prefer opinions to be backed by facts on occasion because they debate there.

I posted the article to educate about a topic. I did not consider it to be controversial. I did want to hear opinions.

That WAS my way of ignoring it

That's what I meant by 'regarded as zealous follower with identity complex'. It's a form of trivialization. Still, it wasn't saying this is what he was, just how I regard generalized statements with no clarification.

You confuse rights with entitlements. The difference is accountability. People are not entitled to express their opinions, just merely have them. For, to be entitled to express your opinion, is to be held unaccountable for the act of expression... which is unrealistic. In an example of rights versus entitlement, when a police officer says you have the right to remain silent, you can choose to do so, but don't think by choosing to do you aren't going to held accountable for remaining silent. If you were entitled to remain silent, not only would you HAVE to remain silent, but you would NOT be held accountable for it.


With that said, knowing people WILL be held accountable for expressing their opinions. Generalized statements are not welcome in any form of communication, mostly because it's difficult to discern the reasoning of such a statement.

Communication is a tricky thing. A person doesn't state their opinion with the intention of it simply being ignored. I can agree to disagree with a person, but first I need clarification (their reason for their opinion) before I can agree, disagree, or agree to disagree with them.

I know he is entitled to his opinion, my response was just my way of saying I would expect more reasoning in stating such an opinion in regards to this topic.. this isn't a topic about favorite colors, or an equally 'suggestive' topic.

Perhaps I would see things differently if I stopped using Internet Explorer for 4 years.. perhaps Internet Explorer sucks and I just don't know it because I see it as a tool, and not a banner of cooperate greed, or whatever the 4 year absence of IE, enlightening process, suggests to me.. perhaps rights to say what I want is not as covered under your belief, Perhaps I am wrong for expressing my opinion that a person's opinion should be more thoughtout. perhaps I'm wrong for critizing what I would consider a completely biast and irrational perspective on something so progressive oriented.

Look, to summarize..

If you have an issue with me NOT ignoring generalized opinions that I disagree with on the basis of generalization, than YOU should learn to follow you own advice, and ignore my statements...
that way you won't seem like a hipocrite, which you are being, by definition.


Now, I think we've gone off topic completely.

So I'm simply going to ask quiet_2008, what would you change about IE to make it not 'suck', as I haven't the first clue of what makes it suck?

btw quiet_2008, my ranting in these posts were not so directed at you as it is to the countless number of people that not only share your opinion, but also make statements to which I gain no clarification from. I really don't mean any disrespect to you personally, and I would have removed the first section I wrote, if not that I felt obligated to post it, because it was my original reaction. I'm not looking to censor myself, or make excuses for my reaction; However, in regards to making excuses for my reaction, at the time, I did just get finished reading several buzz yahoo articles and the posted remarks, which were all Firefox Linux anti-microsoft rhetoric, so that's where my frame of mind came in at the time I read your post.

Again, I have and use other browsers frequently, for I develop(but hardly ever publish) websites... this is not a prefered browser debate for me.
I will go out on a limb here and say you own stock in MS and beleive George Bush did a good job... JK

I should probably stop responding, as you are just not comprehending my meaning...

I am not disagreeing with, or stifling people's legitament opinions.

any opinion that is STATED AS A MATTER OF FACT, and not as an opinion.. REQUIRES THE FACTS...

how do you people NOT UNDERSTAND THAT??

if he were to have said, "In my opinion, IE sucks." than I might be wrong for 'stifling his opinion'

but because he stated it as a MATTER OF FACT, with no facts.. it is understandible to DEMAND the facts.

AND YES, it does qualify as HARMFUL to state a misleading MATTER OF FACT statement. Hench, THE POINT of me even responding to it. I don't care whether he thinks a browser sucks, it's the principal of misleading someone who is open to suggestion. His remark is nothing more than a slander. BY DEFINITION...

I'm also aware that I wrote more than a two line response to (AGAIN) reitterate my points.. so you're likely going to scim through my post, and misinterpet my statements.. AGAIN..

so...

I'm not coming back to this thread, anymore. If you can't comprehend meaning in writing, you are just not worth discussing these matters with.

Send me a message if you would like to get the last word in.. I don't care.



so because you don't like it? it sucks?

or did you mean, because you don't like it, you THINK it sucks?

one is a state of being, the other is based on your perception.. so enough, my final point has been made. I'll just go back to trouble shooting people's computer issues now, because I'm apparently alone is understanding the implications of how a person expresses their opinions.

Brett!!!!! I think there are plenty of important issues being discussed and debated on these forums. I have to question why you give a dam about someones opinion of a MS product!!!!!! I agree with him it sucks and MS should have been busted up years ago. I think its been well proven they illegally monopolized their software in the computer market..Keep your stock and what ever you own. I dont give a **** and as you can see no one else does either. I think you would have made a good Secretary of something in GWBs administration. Worrying about something that people could care a less about. They hate it and I hate so get over it!!! Oh JMO

Microsoft has acknowledged there is a serious security error in IE. They have also acknowledged that as soon as possible a patch will be released to fix this error.

In the mean time it is up to the individual to continue to use IE or change to a different browser.

Personally I find Firefox a better option than IE. Though for some websites IE has to be used.

A friend who designs websites makes it a point not to design them for any one browser. Know that there are several loaded on my computer am often asked to check them out using Firefox, Safari, Opera, and IE.

Actually you can still use Firefox for those websites.. Firefox has an Addon that you can install that will allow you to open up some sites in an IE tab in firefox.. its VERY HANDY!!! since for some reason PDFs only open for me in the IE tabs.. Firefox's addons are very useful...

I'm sorry, Brett, but I think it's you that is not comprehending. I was very clear in my reply. I believe that your ego is getting in the way of understanding the situation.


You said, "how do you people NOT UNDERSTAND THAT??"

I'd like to know where you get off of on being so condescending and act like you're better then everybody else here. I was nice to you and showed you respect. It's a shame that you can't do the same in return.


You said, "an opinion.. REQUIRES THE FACTS..." and "it is understandible to DEMAND the facts."

You're wrong here. This site is a community. We don't DEMAND anything from anybody because NOBODY is any better then the next person. An opinion does NOT require facts. IT'S AN OPINION.


You said, "AND YES, it does qualify as HARMFUL to state a misleading MATTER OF FACT statement."

You obviously are ignorant of the meaning of being harmful to others. These are examples of harmful things on this site: Putting somebody down, making fun of them, being racist, and bullying. You can visit the site's rules on acceptable behavior to find more examples.


You said, "His remark is nothing more than a slander."

I didn't realize that we were in your court of law. The man was sharing his opinion with me and the others and he has every right to do so. His opinion is welcome here. He had experience with IE and didn't like it. The end.


You said, "If you can't comprehend meaning in writing, you are just not worth discussing these matters with."

You, my dear, have a lot to learn about people. You need to come down from your high horse if you want to play well with others. You're right. It's not worth discussing these matters with me. I deserve better then that.


You said, "because I'm apparently alone is understanding the implications of how a person expresses their opinions".

Yes, you are apparently alone with the fact that you think that this is a debate club when all that happened was that I posted a thread about some problems with IE and invited people to discuss them.

if its not directed at me then don't say my name

and don't say my name along with phrases like "You felt it was worth announcing how 'cool' you are "

or "Until then, you'll be regarded as a zealous follower with an identity complex." "

cause that is guaranteed to piss me off and start a fight that I promise you don't want

I was going to add that their acknowledgement to this thread but I lost the article.

Hmmm...I think I need to look into those add ons. I was just reading on the Yahoo page that Firefox want us to go to Firefox 3 now.

Already there.

One of my favorites is when I'm researching something.. Firefox has persistent sticky notes and highlighters.. I can place a sticky note on a page, or highlight text.. leave come back.. reboot.. whatever.. and my notes stay.. great for school work. and the Cooliris preview.. allows you to see the page before you click on the link to it.....