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| Topic: Should a church be able to openly participate in politics! | |
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I just saw on the news where a Church of Latter Day Saints donated over 1 mil$ to support Prop8 in California..To me that's is wrong and they should lose their tax exemption!!! That is totally wrong. I'll tell you something that two churches did by me. A Catholic man that I know went to church two weeks before the election. The priest told the congregation that they would no longer be Catholic if they voted for Obama. Our newspaper did an investigation on another church here. Again, it was a Catholic church. During the sermon, the priest was comparing Obama with Hitler and told the congregation that they would go to hell if they voted for him. I am a firm believer of separation of church and state. 
Yes, they should. What do you think about churches that have signs that say "Vote no on stem cell research"? When we voted on that issue, I saw a lot of those signs. |
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Food for thought: What would be the difference between the church, as a group...making a donation, and the individual(member of the group) making a separate donation? The group being made up of individuals...who would still have a right to their choice. I'm not picking either/or on this issue...but was just wondering what the difference would be. Would that not be a legal "work-around" on this issue? What is your opinion? 
That is exactly what the Moral Majority does. It is a "work- around" I am glad my belief does not have Tax exemption because they and I do not want the Govt. telling us what to do 
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Edited by
Unknow
on
Thu 11/06/08 11:15 AM
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I just saw on the news where a Church of Latter Day Saints donated over 1 mil$ to support Prop8 in California..To me that's is wrong and they should lose their tax exemption!!! That is totally wrong. I'll tell you something that two churches did by me. A Catholic man that I know went to church two weeks before the election. The priest told the congregation that they would no longer be Catholic if they voted for Obama. Our newspaper did an investigation on another church here. Again, it was a Catholic church. During the sermon, the priest was comparing Obama with Hitler and told the congregation that they would go to hell if they voted for him. I am a firm believer of separation of church and state.
Yes, they should. What do you think about churches that have signs that say "Vote no on stem cell research"? When we voted on that issue, I saw a lot of those signs. |
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. |
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if the churches can't get involved in politics, what about politicians who are religious (whatever denomination)?
Should they be expected to give up their faith because they are in politics? I don't know if I even have an opinion on that. I was just wondering |
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Edited by
Quikstepper
on
Thu 11/06/08 11:49 AM
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. AMEN! To that! It's just more twisted LIB logic to think otherwise. Freedom of Speech should never be infringed upon...NEVER! If that was the case there would be an aweful lot of LIBS either in straight jackets or jail for their treasonous outlook on our nation. That's for sure... |
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. AMEN! To that! It's just more twisted LIB logic to think otherwise. Freedom of Speech should never be infringed upon...NEVER! If that was the case there would be an aweful lot of LIBS either in straight jackets or jail for their treasonous outlook on our nation. That's for sure... |
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Edited by
Quikstepper
on
Thu 11/06/08 12:12 PM
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. AMEN! To that! It's just more twisted LIB logic to think otherwise. Freedom of Speech should never be infringed upon...NEVER! If that was the case there would be an aweful lot of LIBS either in straight jackets or jail for their treasonous outlook on our nation. That's for sure... FREEDOM OF SPEECH is for everyone & is NEVER something to be infringed upon. NEVER! To think otherwise is UnAmerican! Stop twisting what the founders said. |
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Edited by
Unknow
on
Thu 11/06/08 12:36 PM
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. AMEN! To that! It's just more twisted LIB logic to think otherwise. Freedom of Speech should never be infringed upon...NEVER! If that was the case there would be an aweful lot of LIBS either in straight jackets or jail for their treasonous outlook on our nation. That's for sure... FREEDOM OF SPEECH is for everyone & is NEVER something to be infringed upon. NEVER! To think otherwise is UnAmerican! Stop twisting what the founders said. |
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. AMEN! To that! It's just more twisted LIB logic to think otherwise. Freedom of Speech should never be infringed upon...NEVER! If that was the case there would be an aweful lot of LIBS either in straight jackets or jail for their treasonous outlook on our nation. That's for sure... FREEDOM OF SPEECH is for everyone & is NEVER something to be infringed upon. NEVER! To think otherwise is UnAmerican! Stop twisting what the founders said. Then they should do away with move on's tax exemption as well as planned parenthood & every other so called non profits...or shut up! This sort of twisted logic is discrimination against the church. They have just as much of a right to free speech as all these other so called orgs. |
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Edited by
Unknow
on
Thu 11/06/08 12:46 PM
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. AMEN! To that! It's just more twisted LIB logic to think otherwise. Freedom of Speech should never be infringed upon...NEVER! If that was the case there would be an aweful lot of LIBS either in straight jackets or jail for their treasonous outlook on our nation. That's for sure... FREEDOM OF SPEECH is for everyone & is NEVER something to be infringed upon. NEVER! To think otherwise is UnAmerican! Stop twisting what the founders said. Then they should do away with move on's tax exemption as well as planned parenthood & every other so called non profits...or shut up! This sort of twisted logic is discrimination against the church. They have just as much of a right to free speech as all these other so called orgs. |
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Funny that the Mormons spent a metric *hit-ton of money in CA to defeat Prop 8.
I guess two men or two women marrying is not okay. However one man and an unlimited amount of women is spiffy. I hope these religious types are right. I hope God does have a little chat with everyone when they die. Personally, I have some questions. I do think given what I was taught about God that anyone who presumes to speak for God might head up the line. Stand back! He might smite you! |
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. AMEN! To that! It's just more twisted LIB logic to think otherwise. Freedom of Speech should never be infringed upon...NEVER! If that was the case there would be an aweful lot of LIBS either in straight jackets or jail for their treasonous outlook on our nation. That's for sure... That is so hateful. |
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. AMEN! To that! It's just more twisted LIB logic to think otherwise. Freedom of Speech should never be infringed upon...NEVER! If that was the case there would be an aweful lot of LIBS either in straight jackets or jail for their treasonous outlook on our nation. That's for sure... That is so hateful. Exploiting ignorance is what's hateful. Libs count on the ignorance of others for votes. That's sad... |
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Edited by
KerryO
on
Thu 11/06/08 02:26 PM
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. Using your logic, then, since the name 'Jesus Christ' isn't mentioned in the Constitution or any legal documents, then you have no legal leg to stand on when folks like you proclaim this is a Christian nation. Yours is a jealous God whose followers don't often play nice with the other children. The Federalist Papers and Jefferson's early work on The Virginia Religious Freedom Act make it clear he and the other Founders similarly didn't trust another version of the unified Church and King of England to not attempt to open a new franchise here in the United States. (Jefferson once said it was his work on the VRFA was what he was proudest of). -Kerry O. |
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. AMEN! To that! It's just more twisted LIB logic to think otherwise. Freedom of Speech should never be infringed upon...NEVER! If that was the case there would be an aweful lot of LIBS either in straight jackets or jail for their treasonous outlook on our nation. That's for sure... That is so hateful. Exploiting ignorance is what's hateful. Libs count on the ignorance of others for votes. That's sad... The worse exploitation of ignorance that I have seen and heard is on Fox News, Rush, and Talk Hate Radio. They're not exactly lib shows are they? |
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. AMEN! To that! It's just more twisted LIB logic to think otherwise. Freedom of Speech should never be infringed upon...NEVER! If that was the case there would be an aweful lot of LIBS either in straight jackets or jail for their treasonous outlook on our nation. That's for sure... That is so hateful. Exploiting ignorance is what's hateful. Libs count on the ignorance of others for votes. That's sad... The worse exploitation of ignorance that I have seen and heard is on Fox News, Rush, and Talk Hate Radio. They're not exactly lib shows are they? And according to the news today, News Corp.'s profits are waaaay down. I guess people like Bile O'Reilly aren't the hot properties they once were. Listening to Shawn Hannity on the way home from work tonight, it seems he has a new schtick-- Conservatism in Exile. In a way, it's sort of ironic: they are as In Your Face as the "Libs" they decry. One might say that NeoUberConservatives are the New Libs? Having gotten too full of themselves that they have been chased out into the desert for another 40 years? -Kerry O. |
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Quick history lesson. Separation of Church and state is not a law of any kind. It is shorthand for a phrase that Jefferson used in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. The phrase used was "wall of separation between church and state,". The intent of this was that the government would not get involved in church affairs, not the other way around. This concept was added into the constitution as the 1st Amendment which you may know as Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As you can see there is nothing there addressing the church getting involved in federal affairs. So love it or hate it, there is really nothing even implied in the idea of "separation of church and state" that says the church cannot/should not be involved in the government. Find below the letter the Danbury Baptists sent to Jefferson. It contradicts your interpretation. Remember, the Danbury Baptists contacted Jefferson _first_: The Danbury Baptists' letter to Thomas Jefferson The address of the Danbury Baptists Association in the state of Connecticut, assembled October 7, 1801. To Thomas Jefferson, Esq., President of the United States of America. Sir, Among the many million in America and Europe who rejoice in your election to office; we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyed in our collective capacity, since your inauguration, to express our great satisfaction, in your appointment to the chief magistracy in the United States: And though our mode of expression may be less courtly and pompous than what many others clothe their addresses with, we beg you, sir, to believe that none are more sincere. Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty--that religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals--that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions--that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbors; But, sir, our constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter together with the law made coincident therewith, were adopted as the basis of our government, at the time of our revolution; and such had been our laws and usages, and such still are; that religion is considered as the first object of legislation; and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the state) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights; and these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgements as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore; if those who seek after power and gain under the pretense of government and religion should reproach their fellow men--should reproach their order magistrate, as a enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dare not, assume the prerogatives of Jehovah and make laws to govern the kingdom of Christ. Sir, we are sensible that the president of the United States is not the national legislator, and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the laws of each state; but our hopes are strong that the sentiments of our beloved president, which have had such genial effect already, like the radiant beams of the sun, will shine and prevail through all these states and all the world, till hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and good will shining forth in a course of more than thirty years we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the chair of state out of that goodwill which he bears to the millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for your arduous task which providence and the voice of the people have called you to sustain and support you enjoy administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to raise to wealth and importance on the poverty and subjection of the people. And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his heavenly kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator. Signed in behalf of the association, Nehemiah Dodge Ephraim Robbins Stephen S. Nelson |
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Kerry O, I fail to see how that contradicts anything I have said? Forgive me but could you explain your views on this?
The way I see it, if nothing else, the wording of the first amendment makes it clear that this was to protect religion from the government, not the other way around. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Considering the history of the reason many people came to America in the first place, (King controlling the Church of England) this would also make sense in a historical context. Please also see the response sent to the Danbury Baptists by Jefferson. He makes it clear that the issue at hand is the government involving itself with the affairs of the church not the church involving itself with the affairs of the government. "To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut. Gentlemen The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing. Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem. Th Jefferson Jan. 1. 1802." -Ken |
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If a not for profit did the same I would call them on it to..Why does everyone have to have your beleives, your political agendas..What makes you so dam Godly? What gives you thr right to say whats right and wrong for someone else??? God gave us FREEWILL Perhaps you should target planned parent hood then. They donated over $4.5 million to fight Proposition 4. |
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