It didn't start out that way as to it being what it became. Initially the christians were not pushing aganda's, they grew their nubers by there daily actions and people joined because the saw something in them that was peaceful, but over time it became mans agenda's that turned it into what now [and for centuries] it has become. if you could return ti it's beginnings you would view it as something quite different than you see now.

BUT!! it does not let god off the hook for leading christ to tell the others to go forth and preach the gospel, Paul, being led by the spirit is mostly resposible for setting up groups of believers [churches] with the bishops and others to rule, this in my opinion was the fatal mistake made.

So what have you gained from your belief abra?

It seems to me Tribo, that you do not want to believe in the traditional Church or Christiainty... but yet you still seem to work from a position of opposition against it.

It is as if you are still trapped by the dogma and fighting your way clear of it by trying to destroy it from where you are, trapped.

You can just walk away Tribo. What stops you? Fear of eternal damnation?

Why do you struggle so hard to blame a God described by one religious group? Why do you pick and pick at that one religion as if it were the greatest enemy you face?

Why don't you just walk away?

What is it that still attaches you to the dogma?

Do you seek a large following to walk away with you?


JB

hmm? you mistake my intentions my lady, when i point out things such as this above, i am doing so to let people know that the beginning was quite diff. from what is called christianity today [from what i know or have read historically] as to how they acted and were in the first century.

It negates nothing of what i feel or believe this gods shortcoming are and that has never changed. no I'm not starting a following nor a sect or cult i have no wish for followers and have even posted such, that its just my opinions just as you. there will be no triboist beliefs past me. I do not view god as an enemy, i view him as less than perfect Deity capable of the same mistakes man makes, why? because i believe man is behind the curtain not god and have stated such many times. BUT - i do see a need to open up discussion on why people believe as they do about the book god at face value - just as you do miss "piso" - so i don't know why you think what you do of my post's, but it really doesn't matter one way or the other.

do you feel a need to believe in draco's or piso's in order to feel OK about yourself? i don't think so - so there is little difference in us in that respect my lady -

I think the difference I see in your (and my) expressions are that when you use the term "God" you seem to be referring to the Christian's idea and concept of god as apposed to your own true understanding of what god is. (What ever that is..)

Such statements as "it does not let god off the hook" or "Do you think God is a murderer and a liar.." etc... leave me a bit confused as to what concept of god you are referring to as I have been under the impression that you don't believe in the Christian concept of god, so why use the term "God" to refer to him unless you are only speaking to Christians about their god. (If this is the case, then your posts would have no real meaning or value for me or other non-Christians and I don't really need to read or comment on them from my perspective.)

So is this the case? Are you talking about the Christian concept of god and addressing only Christians?

you were not aware of that? hmm - most of my post have to do with the monotheistic god and mostly the one held by christians as he only true god, when have i not made that clear? since that was my background and the contention mostly spoken of on here - why would you think diff - unless i stated i was talking of the creative force/source?
when have you not been clear on that?

Actually I have always known that. ....

see private message.

JB

As Soul, you have the God-knowledge within you.The teachings of ECK will awaken the knowledge and love for the divine things that are already in your heart.

The road to God is the adventure of a lifetime.

The best book to read put out by Paul Twitchell I think that I liked was "The Flute of God."

Bare in mind that the term "ECK" was made up by Paul Twitchell who plagiarized most of his work from previous eastern guru teachings and the current organization of Eckankar is a mild cult and non-profit religious organization and does not tell the truth about itself and its founders.

May I interject here?

I have know James/Abra for over three years now, in online communities, and for the entire time, he has been consistent in his posts about what it is he feels is appropriate for him.

When James posts in an 'against' manner, (it is from my observations,) because he has read the post, topic, whatever........ sat with it, thought about how that fits, for him, then answers VERY clearly why it doesn't fit him.

He has always been open to ANY theory, belief, or another's understanding, and ONLY rejects what doesn't fit him.


In a cyber world of projections and illusions, his consistency has given me a strong trust in James knows who he is.

Sounds like every religious group out there JB I'll check out that book

Thank you Jess.

It is true that my core beliefs truly haven't changed since my extreme early childhood. (before I was even old enough to understand what 'religion' was).

As I grew up I was taught that the Bible was the book of God. It is extremely unfortunate that I had been taught that by so many sweet innocent people whom I trusted.

At one time I fell for it hook line and sinker. Was that a change in my original childhood connection? Not really.

All it really amounted to was an attempt to understand the book that people were claiming had been written by the supreme consciousness of this universe.

Because I had placed so much trust in the people who told me that this picture was true it was difficult not to give it serious consideration.

As a naive young man (teenage) I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior and gave my life over to God.

Giving my life over to God at that point was truly irrelevant since I had always been a child of God. I had never rejected or turned away from God ever.

So the act of giving myself over to God was more of a formalism than anything else. How can you give yourself over to someone you had already given yourself over to before you hear a rumor that he wrote a book?

You know. These people who think that the Bible itself is God have got to be seriously clueless.

God is the word we use to describe the CREATOR of this universe. There is no such thing as a 'false God'. If it's false, then it doesn't exist.

Duh? Why can't people get that?

Religions and religious doctrines on the other hand can indeed be false.

What I discovered is precisely that. The book was a lie, it was never written or inspired by the creator of this universe. Our creator doesn't tell people to throw stones at each other, and our creator most certainly wouldn't have his or her son butchered on a pole and hold every responsible for that horrid event.

That's just plain sick and I don't believe that our creator is insane.

So once I found that the book was a lie I felt betrayed and angry. Not with God. It wasn't God's fault I was lied to.

In fact, I wasn't even angry with the actual individual people who had lied to me. My mother was extremely sweet. No one could ever possibly become angry with my mother. It's just not a conceivable idea.

And I've never seen anyone angry with her. I had become rebellious toward her on a few occassions and may have even become angry at those times. But in hind sight I could see that it was self-directed anger, and it had never been directed at her.

She didn't exactly 'lie' to me. I mean technically she did. But she didn't know she was lying. She had been lied to and was simply teaching me the same things that she had been taught. She was telling innocent lies without realizing it.

I became angry with the clergy and the men and women who push this dogma who truly should know better!

And that wasn't even directed to the pastor of our church or any member of our church. I believe all of those people were innocent just like my mother. They had all been duped.

In any case, I don't think that there was ever a time when I truly believed that all men fell from grace from God and needed to be redeemed.

Why not?

Because I know that it isn't true for me.

It's that simple.

I only need one exception to disprove the whole theory. And I just happened to be one. Although I'm certainly not suggestion that I'm the only exception by far. I imagine there are a lot of truly innocent well-meaning people in this world. In fact, I'm certain their are. I've met quite a few of them myself.

In fact this might even apply to the vast majority of people actually.

Most people think the world is mostly criminal. But crime rates just don't show this. All crimes combined (including j-walking and parking tickets) is less than 10% of the population.

Truly violent crimes represent less than 1% of the population. This means that potentially 90% to 99% of the people on this planet may very well be truly good innocent people!

This is in direct contradiction to the idea that all men are sinners and are rejecting God.

Enough of that.

So I moved on to a better 'picture' of God. I realized that pantheistic religions such as Buddhism and the religions of the North American Indian (as well as many other cultures) were much more suited to my original experience with our creator as a child.

So I supported the 'pantheistic view' which I still support today.

I would have to say that pantheism has always been my view. Christianity was merely an attempt by an organized religion to change my innate understanding of our creator.

More recently I've been looking at things like The Law of Attraction, Tarot, Scrying, etc., in the hope of finding something that can help me connect me with the spirit methodically.

And yes, I do believe that methods can be useful. We exercise our body to improve it, we study to improve our mind, why not exercise our psyche to better connect with the spirit?

It only makes sense.

I've done this sort of thing before with meditation using Buddha and Yoga as guides. That did indeed produce a very calming affect. And as Jess Lee always says, it helped me to "Just Be".

However, lately I've been wanting more than to "Just Be". Not because I feel incomplete or that I'm seeking some final connection where I can claim to have become enlightened or have been 'saved' from something.

Not at all.

I simply seek a way to gain a better method of communicating (or wielding) spiritual energy.

I want to do this entirely for creative productive reasons. Also to gain a better control over disease and health in general.

My main interests are in music, gardening, and home improvements (especially in helping my home to become one with nature). I live in a cottage and I want it to resonate with the spirit of the forest better than it currently does.

Very recently Ruth has introduced me to the art of witchcraft. I had originally dismissed witchcraft as being both silly, and dogmatic. I originally thought that it was myth-based just like Christianity. With specific human-like deities that make proclamations etc.

I was wrong. That is a totally incorrect picture of witchcraft.

Taken in it's most abstract form it is the art of wielding the spiritual powers of the universe for the purpose of creation and/or transformation of manifestations of all manner (i.e. physical, mental, and emotional)

The methodology is completely compatible with a pantheistic, or animistic view of the world.

So this isn't a change in belief.

It's simply a discovery of a 'toolbox' and instructions on how to use them.

So I wouldn't say that my core beliefs have ever changed over the entire course of my life.

I would simply say that they were almost murdered by an organized religion but thankfully they survived that attack.

I'm still the same me I was when I was born.

Unchanging, primordial, and eternal.

You're right Robin.

In fact, I'm beginning to vividly realize that I don't even want to support Wicca as a 'religion'.

Witchcraft without the religion is just a personal philosophy that I find very attractive and hopefully useful. I support it as a philosophy and methodology, but I really see not reason to push it as a 'religion' at least not in the 'organized' sense.

Maybe in the sense of being an option for personal spirituality it might be useful for some people.

I don't even view it as a means to spirituality, but rather as a constructive philosophy and methodology that can be useful in guilding spiritual energy and potentially helping to establish a communiqué with the subconscious mind.

For those who resonate with the elements of the natural world.

I'd like to respond to this one more time just from a pragmatic point of view.

My lastest "belief" that witchcraft can potentially be an effective tool to help me to become more attuned to spirtual energies is in its extreme infancy.

Thus far it is still in the state of potentiality. As I've stated, it's like anything else. You may intellectually see the benefits of exercise immediately, but none-the-less to gain those benefits you need to work out for some period of time.

At this point in time, I've merely recognize the value in the methods of witchcraft (which are very closely related to ideas assocaiated with The Law of Attraction).

However, I can already say that via this understanding of how objects can be infused and charged with spiritual energy it has already made a significant difference in how I play musical instruments.

I'm already becoming more attuned to music than I had previously been. Not just when I play instruments, but I've even noticed this just listening to music.

I hear instruments and subtlies that I never was attuned to before. Simply because I am now recognizing all the different frequencies of vibration.

Since a large part of my interest in becoming more attuned to the creative forces is indeed driven by a desire to become more musically inclined, I can say that having merely recognized the fundamental concepts of witchcraft have already served to put me into a deeper connection with virational energies in general.

So even without performing any rituals or calling upon any spiritual assistance I've already noticed a difference. Just from my changing vantage point in how to maniulate and attune myself to vibrations.

No God required at this point.

Just sweet vibrations.

If I meet up with a Goddess along the way it will just be icing on the cake.

I seriously don't understand this response to my honest question. However I do from my limited experience agree with you.




I appreciate this sincere answer

I think I wouldn't mind hearing more about this new musical focus of yours Abra!

Also whatca play?

sO WHAT IS EVERY ONE LOOKING FOR SPIRITUALLY? And do you know you have found it, cause it fits you? A lot of thing s are good for a person that doesn't fit them so how do you know?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xIeR2_QEOs

I have learned far more once I decided to shed spirituality, then I ever did embracing it. This is not to say there is nothing to be learned by allowing your mind to move through the paces . . . its just you don't have to explain the results by saying god did it.