I still don't understand why anyone would want to believe in the biblical story to begin with.

I mean if a person had a choice you'd think they'd be thrilled to discover that it isn't true!

Just imagine. The whole idea that mankind fell from grace from God and that we are all responsible for for our creator to need to send his only begotten Son to be nailed to a pole to pay for OUR sins!

Who would want to believe that if they didn't have to?

That's a terrible story!

Why are people so anxious to believe that THEY are the reason that Jesus had to be nailed to a pole?

That's precisely what the story is saying!

Why anyone would want to believe in such a story based on pure faith without evidence is beyond me.

I'd much rather believe that I have not failed my creator and that my creator is perfectly happy with me and I'm not responsible for him having to have his only begotten Son nailed to a pole!

I mean, if I have to believe something based on pure faith, I'll choose to believe something more positive.

Besides, where does the Devil fit into all of this?

Isn't mankind evil enough on his own? He has to be corerced by a devil?

The whole myth needed to create a boogieman who will come and get us if we aren't good. But it had to be sure that the bookieman isn't a "God" in it's own right.

That's one place where they blew it big time!

It simply can't be that way.

If God is all-powerful and Satan is merely a demon to be the prisonmaster of hell, then Satan would be nothing other than an employee of God.

It simply makes no sense to have an all-powerful God in competition with a demon for the souls it creates.

It also makes absolutely no sense that God would weep when a soul is sent to hell?

Either the sould deserves to go to hell, or it doesn't. What's to weep about? Why should anyone weep if someone gets what they deserve? And if they don't deserve it, then why can't God stop it? Isn't he supposed to be all-powerful?

Clearly the story simply makes no sense.

Why people insist on believing in a nonsensical story purely on faith is beyond me.

If we were to suddenly discover that the story is false shouldn't we jump up and down with absolute joy?

It would mean that all men aren't sinners. It would mean that humanity didn't fall from grace from their creator. It would mean that God never had any need to send his only begotten Son to die for OUR sinful behavior!

My God! Break out the champagne! That's something to celebrate over!

The biblical story is a terribly dismal story. Even those few who supposedly make it to heaven only get there with grave shame! For they were the reason that Jesus had to be nailed to a pole!

There's no way out of it. It's a shameful religion win or lose!

I would never believe in this story on pure faith because I wouldn't want it to be true!

If it is true, it's truly sad for all humanity, win or lose.

Why anyone would actually want the story to be true is beyond me.

that is not your freakin problem, my friend
live and the let live others.
don't be an atheist fundie.

don't be paranoic. I'm not insulting anybody. I may be using harsh words, but I'm not insulting. Plus I was referring to the author of the book.

Sorry LW, I have nothing against you or anyone. I truly think you will always believe what you choose to believe. You will never change your beliefs.

I do object to the continuation of spreading what very well is clear to me is a lie. It is one thing to believe a lie, but to spread to needy people searching for truth is just wrong in my opinion.

So I am a small voice in the crowd who means to get people to at least question history and not to swallow these lies.

JB

Which book would that be? I gave references to several books. And I am just a guilty as they are, as I take responsibility for spreading their message. So yes, I took it as it was meant, a dig at me. And it should be, as I said, I take responsibility for spreading this message. If it is a lie, I take responsibility for that too.

I am not asking people to believe me, I am asking them to consider, that is all. That is all I do is consider the possibilities and use some common sense.

JB

every individual is free to believe whatever they want. but when someone else pushes beliefs into others there is a problem.
I know the fundies do it. And your small voice is doing the same just the other way around.

I'm sorry but I have to agree that using words like

and

and

and

and

when describing other peaple, is VERY insulting.

How am I pushing my beliefs into others? I am objecting to a lie.

I will also object to the practice of people telling their children about Santa Clause too. I think it is a terrible thing to lie to children about Santa Claus. They look to their parents for truth and they trust their authority. Then they get told a lie.

It is not a harmless lie.

In my church, (The Universal Life Church of Brutal Truth and Honesty) it is a SIN to lie to your children about anything especially Santa Clause.


JB

It's a lie to you, and some other people. What makes you believe that because you and some other people believe it's a lie, it will be a lie for somebody else?

BTW I hate Santa Claus, I would never tell my children about Santa because I know it's a lie.

However, I honestly believe in the veracity and historicity of my Lord Jesus Christ, ergo, it follows if I teach my children about Him, I would not teach a lie because I believe in what I'm teaching.

Now if after teaching them what I believe, and later on in their lives they decide it's a lie well that is up to them.

Now for me believing in the historicity of my Lord is very subjective, however, there are thousands over thousands of objective proofs out there about His real existance in these world.

There is no proof of the objective existence of Jesus, the human person, except for the writings of the New Testament, and a brief mention of him by Josephus which could easily have been written by Romans.

Because a lie is believed by the spreader of the lie does not make it truth.

It is just opinion. This is mine.

Peace.

JB

There are reasons to feel threatened by religions that claim to speak for God as the ulimate authority.

They want to denounce the intellectual avandcement of mankind in favor of clinging to negative myths. And they are negative myths.

They want to use public schools to teach creationism which means the "biblical picture" which ulimately claims that we have fallen from grace from our creator and need to repent and follow a specific book of myths.

They denounce freedom of love based on gender pointing to their book of mythology. A book that also says that women aren't suppose to speak out in public, yet they don't seem to be able to read that part of it.

They appear to just use it to pick and choose what they'd like to enforce in society as the "laws of God" and have everyone bowing down to the churches.

They make it eveyone's "problem" Miguel by trying to force it onto eveyone else.

These Mediterranean myths are also the cause of world tension in the middle east, and often in other parts of the world. Even the Catholics and Protestants are often violent toward each other.




Well, I for one am not an atheist. I don't believe in proselytizing any religion or philosophy. However, I will offer better pictures of the creator of this universe for anyone who might be interested.

Why would anyone want to believe that we have fallen from grace from our creator anyway?

Why is that so important for you to believe that? Do you like to feel negative about your relationship with your creator?

Even if you accept Jesus as your savior you must realise that he died to pay for your rebellious disobedience of God. Ulimtely your the reason he had to be nailed to the cross. Surely you can't feel very good about that?




I view it entirely as a humanitary issue. I see no reason why people should be taught that they have fallen from grace from their creator when no one has any clue if there is any truth to the rumor at all.

I suggest that we toss out any and all documents that claim to be the word of any gods and then if there is a real God who wants to get a message to us he'll suddently realize that we just don't know what to believe anymore.

Don't you think that any genuinely compassionate God would step forward and help us out?

Surely you don't think he would become angry and lose his temper. What kind of a truly divine being would do such a thing.

I make it very simple. Either God is truly loving and understanding, or God isn't.

If God is truly loving and understanding he or she is not going to be asking us to believe in negative fairytales on pure faith.

If God isn't truly loving, then we're all in a bunch of sh't no matter what we believe or don't believe.

I don't see how a skeptical honest look at history and exposing the lies, motives and agendas of the Romans or the Church to be preaching hate, but when people wake up and realize they have been and are being lied to they very well could get very upset.

Yes if this truth gets out it could disrupt a lot of religions and a lot of wealthy Churches would fall on their faces.

How many people inside the Catholic Church do you think know the real truth? Why don't they open up their hidden records for all to see? Why do you think they scramble to collect any and all artifacts that might be taken as "proof" of the Biblical story? Because they are desperately trying to hold it together in the face of truth being revealed. They go out of their way to support the lie.

It makes me angry and sad. I'm tired of the lies of this world. I'm not going to stand and listen to them anymore. I will speak out against them to any who will listen. I just want people to think for themselves. Investigate for themselves. Prove me wrong, prove me right I don't care, but at least consider it. Don't just accept the lies of authority of your Church, your Bible, your governments. Question them for they are the liars.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

JB

lets see the Romans wanted a cover up..Huh

Did the Romans want to kill an innocent man?

Was Yahshua not a friend of the roman govenor?

No other religion speaks of Yahshua? Huh I can think of 4 major ones who claim him as thier prophet.

Lets see has anyone in history been known around the world. latched onto as a prophet of thiers.

Is anyone here kocking Mohammad as a myth? Try it it will be good for your health. Ask Rushki.


has anyone in history tried to be as this thread is trying to claim someone has not existed for 2000 years yet the whole world knows of him.

Ask a Hindu who he is?

Does anyone relise that Roman Goveners had what we call scribes at his beck and calling so he would have a accurate report for ceaser just incase Ceaser had a question. Sounds like a CPA on the payroll.

JB this is the Historian that everyone has tried to cover up because it was his job on Passover to record what pilate did.

It was his job to record everything that happened at the releasing of a prisoner as a jesture of good will to israel.

Why do you think the enscription Yahshua King of the Jews was engraved in 3 languages that when the Jews had issue with that Pilote said what has been written will stay written?

Who do you think Pilate was listeening to and taking advice from?

Could it be that Pilate was a little concerned about the record Ceaser would see?

What was Pilates secratary?and Why would he want things done right and why do you think Pilate said he washes his hands of Yahshua's Innocent Blood?

Do you think just maybe Ceaser himself knew who Yahshua was and he was a man who preached against the religious leaders and healed Roman Soldiers. Why?

I would not want to cross ceaser. Would you of wanted to back then.

Yes JB it was all recorded. thats how we actually have a accurate account.

but it was a Roman documant.Do you understand what I am saying and it;s importance?

Pilate did agree to a watch of the stone in front of the grave. Why did he care about doing this?

What were those soldiers command by him?

Why would he care?

Jewish law says a man is not declared dead untill after the end of the 3rd day.

This is why Yahshua declared he would be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. To prove he was dead.But what happened?

When the stone was rolled away and the soldiers got stage frieght and given money not only to say that he was taken away by his disciples but for the RECORD HE WAS NOT IN THE GRAVE 3 DAYS AND NIGHTS.

Making him alive that he never died.No proof.

The Jews and Pilate were very concerned about PROOF.

And guess what not the disciples that was taking down every minute that was happening because this was a HUGE event. WAS HE THE MESSIAH OR NOT.

Pilates scribe was incharge of keeping records and we know the Romans kept detailed records of things.

But the scholars even do not want these records known. I wonder why?

So see JB if you want to prove this a myth search and you will find the records the romans kept of the Greatest Event to ever happen in the world.

Your little crannies they know. It just does not fit thier agenda. If they came clean then they would be known as liars, decievers. What would they do to feed thier families or thier lifestyles. Once again 30 pieces of silver buys a field of Blood. Blessings...Miles

Milesoftheusa,

Honestly I don't know what document or records you are actually referring to or what historian you are talking about. I can't follow your logic or your questions as I am not familiar with your particular religious belief or where it actually came from.

JB

That is not exactly what I said.

"There is no proof of the objective existence of Jesus, the human person, except for the writings of the New Testament, and a brief mention of him by Josephus which could easily have been written by Romans."

All these religions were created by the same force to achieve the same effect and, therefore, the saviour-god myths throughout the ancient world have an identical game plan:

1 You are born with original sin and so you are an unworthy piece of **** from the day you arrive on the planet.

2 You can only be saved by believing in the ‘Saviour’ and that means doing what the priesthood tell you to do.

3 If you don’t do that, you will be condemned to the bowels of hell forever.

What guilt and terror this has created over thousands of years.


Lucius Calpurnius Piso, the head of the family, was married to the great granddaughter of Herod the Great. According to Reuchlin’s research, Piso, who used many pseudonyms, produced his ‘Ur Marcus’, the first version of the Gospel of Mark, in about 60AD.

One of the friends who encouraged him was the famous Roman writer, Annaeus Seneca, but it seems that both of them were killed by the Emperor Nero in the year 65.

With this, the name Piso disappears from Roman history and doesn’t reappear until 138 AD when Piso’s grandson, Antoninus, became emperor.

But from this point the family are mostly known as the Antonines, not the Pisos. In the 73 years between the death of father Piso and the emergence of Antoninus, the foundations for Christianity were written and proclaimed under assumed names.

After the death of his father at the hands of Nero, Piso’s son, Anus, who used a number of names, including Cestius Gallus, was made governor of Syria.

This gave him command over the Roman army in Judea. He was involved in the Judean revolt in 66 AD which Vespasian was sent to Judea to quell.

Emperor Nero was assassinated in 68 AD by an agent of Piso according to Reuchlin.

This certainly makes sense if Nero killed his father. With this, the Piso clan threw their power and manipulation behind Vespasian and he became Emperor of Rome in 69 AD.

A year later the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, stole the temple treasures, including it is claimed the Ark of the Covenant, and apparently took them back to Rome where they entered the secret society underground. This underground was nothing less than the Babylonian Brotherhood.

Joseph ben Matthias was a Jewish general who led the revolt of the Jews against the Romans and then wrote a history of those events (after turning traitor) and being adopted or captured by Romans. (37-100)

Jb

Was Josephus a real person or a fiction too?

According to written history of Flavius Josephus he was a real person with the name Joseph ben Matthias was a Jewish general. The author of "The True Authorship Of The New Testament" Abelard Reuchlin, does not think so.

I am unsure if he was a real person or not, but if he was, and if he was a captive of the Romans he was certainly under their control and his identity and story was only used by the Piso's for their agenda.

This is what Abelard Reuchlin writes. He believes that Flavius Josephus was in truth Anus Calpurnius Piso.

>>>"Another manifestation of Anus Piso was Flavius Josephus, the writer I have quoted once or twice. The reason that Piso, as Josephus, and his granddaughter’s husband Pliny the Younger, do not mention Jesus in their official writings is because at the time it simply would not have been credible to do so. It was only with the passage of time as the true origin of ‘Jesus’ was lost that the stories became accepted as ‘fact’.

The "official" history of Josephus is that he was a Judean descended from Hasmonean royalty. He fought against the Romans and although his friends committed suicide when the revolt went pear-shaped, he gave himself up and was spared.

More than that, we are told he was housed in Rome by the emperors for 30 years while he wrote books on Jewish ‘history’ and then married his granddaughter into the Roman aristocracy. Oh, do come on. Josephus was the Roman aristocrat, Anus Calpurnius Piso, and together with his sons and Pliny the Younger, they wrote the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament."<<<<<

So I think either one of these accounts is reason to question the New Testament writings or probably many other of the history of those days of war and conflict.

JB

Religions?

I would beg to differ with you on this Miles.

Judaism, Catholicism, Islam, and all the various denominations of Protestantism are the same religion!

They are all based on the same ambigious folklore that has clearly been misunderstood by all of these religions.

If any of these religions hold any truth at all Judaism would probably be the only one. All the others are clearly departures of this original folklore.

Jeannie tends to take the view that Jesus was entirely fictional. I personally can't see how that can be. I don't see how so many people could be duped by pure fiction.

I have no problem beliving that a rabbi was crucified by the Romans and immortalized first as a martyr and then as a God.

However, I do agree with Jeannie in a sense that the story of Jesus as we know it today was most likely created via extreme demagogurey associated with rumor of the excuted rabbi.

In other words, I believe that a rabbi taught something, and confronted the Romans. He was probably making a civil rights protest. And he was crucified for it.

Then that story was made into the story of a sacrificial lamb that had been sent by God, born of a virgin, raised from the dead, etc, etc, etc.

I don't believe a single solitary word of that because I don't believe that the creator of this universe is that crude.

People like to romantize the crucifixion of Jesus. I don't see it as having been a romantic act at all. The God who supposedly did it is the same bastard who demands blood sacrifices in the first place.

It would be a story of a God appeasing himself so he can forgive mankind of their sins.

It doesn't wash.

It's utterly absurd, and I don't believe that the creator of this universe is utterly absurd.

Abra,

Whether or not some rabi was crucified in Rome has no real baring on the fictional account written about a mythical son of God who died for the sins of mankind.

I am sure Rome crucified and tortured many rabi's as they hated the Jews. If Josephus was a real person and killed by the Romans it would not surprise me if the story written about Jesus included some details of his death just for the fun of it.

The Romans were ruthless and had no compassion for people, they loved spectator sports where people were routinely killed. There was no person actually named "Jesus" and no person fitting the description of the man in the story because that person was written up to be a God, which he was not.

Also, what actual proof exists aside from these fictional accounts are there? The number of times a lie is told will not make it true no matter how many times it is rewritten or repeated. If you want to believe that a man, a rabi existed, and was crucified or killed by the Romans, I am sure there was one, maybe more than one. But they bare little resemblance to the story in the New Testament of a man claimed to be a God.

JB

Hmmmm??

It seems that - " what we have heayah is a failyah too communikate"

shalom JB

What most people do not realize is The Jews is a false term given to the 12 tribes of Israel.

Now Jews could not be priests. Only the tribe of Levi which continues today as descendents of the Priesthood..

The High Council were of the tribe of Levi.

Over the years the Tribe of Levi who was a serventude tribe became corrupt.

The High Priests as at this time Kings or a council of Judges had been over run and the people had just excepted The High Priest rule.

Then he by having his lower priests kiss his butt would begiven authority from him in decisions over the people.

Yahshua was of the tribe of Judah and and was in training for his heavenly priesthood but was not when he was alive.

The High council stirred up the people against the Romans.The people were afraid of them. They had the power and were corrupt.

Yahshua being a Jew came not to free the people from the Romans. This is why you see Yahshua as a friend of the Romans. Has the audacity to tell them the way it was and called them on thier lies.

He became a major threat to the High Council.
He Taught but as a Rabbi meaning teacher.

Now I say all this to let you know the Jews is 1 tribe out of 12.

Josephus may be called a Jew but i doubt it.He hated Yahshua because of losing power over the people.

When Nero burns Jerusalem to cover up what he had done in Rome was not fighting the majority of the 12 tribes. mainly those loyal to the High Council.

The believers would not of fought. To fight was to kill to kill was to murder. Thier were alot of converts by 67ad alot of them pagans they fled.

I do not believe Josephus in the most part as he had an agenda of power to keep.

The 12 tribes today is almost a lost term. What the state of Israel is today is hard to say. But the name of Levi and Cohen are thier hoping to bring back thier power. It will not happen.

This is just a reality about the falsehood of being Jewish. As in Israel.

What i am saying is thier are historians from rome and from Jerusalem that recorded about a miracle worker who was a friend to the Romans and a enemy to his own brethern the High Council.

It is a falacy to say thier is not writings from the late 20's early 30's ad.

The arab people were friends of the Israelites because of Yahshua. The Brethern at Babylon recorded about Yahshua.The Arab people probally have more records about Yahshua than anyone..They did not turn on them untill 600 something ad when Mohamad.

just wanted to give u a little history about the tribes. it has been covered up and mistranslated and u loose completely what is really happening.

The other i did post the references a few months ago about the writings that almost seem like they are trying to hide them.

But what i was saying i do not see the use to find them again. Thats only because most people either believe or not. I am not a chr-stian but a Yahwist of the Way or a Yahweh Disciple. most who say they believe on here i can show them absolutely without a doubt proof that they have been taught something wrong and they will not believe it if Yahshua himself came to them and told them. Its Tradition tradition tradition they will not let go.If you are wanting to know about any subject if you do not go prove it in your mind for yourself you can talk till u are blue in the face and you did nothing. Shalom..Miles