i don't think that you can underestimate them as a bunch of crazy
towelheads, they obviously have a purpose that they are driven to and
you can never take something like that lightly. you make alot of
intereting points stlram but i don't think that the us invasion of iraq
had anything to do with it being the center of the religious past. i
have no doubts in my mind about what you said about the islamic fascists
wanting to take over the area and destroy western culture because they
feel that it is poisoning peoples souls and ruining religion as they
know it, basically an incrnate of evil. i also agree with you about all
of those countries seemingly falling in line(much like countries seem to
fall in line with the us when we take action), even the ones that
proclaim the us as an ally(i don't think they are a true ally).there is
definitely going to be a struggle for a very long time.

Some deep shit!! A scary, but true thread, you have going here..

To those who have loss loved ones to these Axis Of Evil,My deepiest
sarrow goes to you..My heart, hurts for you!!I believe in good, and I
believe in evil, and I pray that good will overcome this "old evil",
that we as a society, has delt with for way to long!!

For any Man/Woman that serves in the millitary I say, Thank you!!

For any Man/Woman that fights fires I say, Thank you!!

For any Man/Woman that Protects and Serves I say, Thank you!!

On behalf of my family, and loved ones, I say, "THANK YOU ALL"!!!!

strlam72, I know what you mean and it is a sad story, but Cliton never
did just come out with it until after the fact, did he? And, if i'm not
mistaken they had to snoop around to get that information anyway. I'm
just worried that like pearl harbor they knew of the attack, went to
cease it but got broadsided. With most of our soldiers gone to do good
over there, and here we're still deporting more everyday. It is a big
possibility that it could happen again. Even with all the new
precautions. Never liked the fact of us selling our imports or at least
that's what they were talking about.

WAR IS HELL! There is no other way to get any fraction of a way to
explain it to those of us who have not went. I have 2 horror stories
from being around 2 different veitnam vets. One involved the pot
spotting chopper(old military chopper) flying slow and low right over us
while we was riding horses. The other was while I was in college and we
were standing against a wall/rail over looking a court yard type place
when he say a baby in a carrier that the mother had walked away from.

The first one mentioned was the second time I saw a reaction but it
was more of what I expected from someone who was in war and why I
mention it first. He jumped off the horse and used the riding crop sort
of like a make shift rifle. I had been warned about him spacing out at
times so I just went after the horse he had been riding. He has no
memory of nam and has no memory of these spells. It is a mental
condition where his brain will not access these memories yet the
conditioning still shows through.

The second one mentioned and my first time seeing a nam vet react was
very different. The gent was a friend of mine boyfriend(I tutored her in
Algebra is how we met). It was just a chance meeting near the book
store/post office. Like any friend would you stop and say hello. I have
no idea what we were talking about but the talk that followed I will
never forget. I found out he was a baby killer. I knew he had been in
the military but never heard him talk about anything other than training
and the time he spend in Germany. He was a sniper. He said it was a
weakly or so occurance for a baby to be brought to the gate and left in
a basket. It was also common for babies to just be laid down with no
basket. The difference was that all but one of the babies in the baskets
had bombs under them and when you removed the baby the bomb would
explode. The babies laid at the gate without baskets where picked up and
given medical checks and taken care of properly. It was his job to shoot
through the baby and hit the bomb. He said the ones with the bombs where
going to die by the hands of their own people and he kind of saw them as
mercy killings. But he is haunted to this very day by the baby in the
basket with no bomb. He took aim and shot in the middle of the basket to
hit the bomb like he had been taught. The baby screamed and there was no
explosion. He was ordered to shoot again. And again no bomb went off.
They then sent someone out to the child but it was dead.

I never served. I want to thank those that have served. I go to vet
cemetaries and remember these 2 items. I never want any soldier forgot
for what they paided for my freedoms. Just this glimps into what real
war is like changed me forever. Maybe it will help change the ideas of
some anti military people.

I liked the comments about Iraq being the center of the world, so to
speak. Babylon has been rebuilt. The 2 great sides to the final battle
are being drawn. Babylon vs. Jeruselam(spell check). This battle has
been going on since Kaine killied Able.

there is ONE thing tho...it's not just a bunch of crazy, towel-headed
islamic fundamentalists that have caused this war...there's a lot of
crazy, bible-thumping Christian fundamentalists that would love to see
armageddon, that have been pushing to get things heated up in the middle
east and get the final battle started so they can go "home"..Religious
fundamentalism is a very dangerous thing, no matter what religion it
is... here's the thing...the cruades against islam started around 1000
AD, and the reason for those crusades wasn't because islam is an
inherently evil religion but those that were shoving it down ppls
throats were..entire populations were being massacred if they didn't
submit and convert to islam...BUT..isn't that what the Catholic church
did in the New World? Murdered 10's of thousands of native peoples in
the name of God to get them to convert, or steal their gold...the way I
see it..as far as the religious wars go..neither side has much to be
proud of.

Public Animal,

I won't get into a debate over the Christianity vs. Islam (actually I
will, but not here) If anyone attacks Christianity, I'll defend
it....BUT....

I want to say this to you, YOU are 100% right about the Catholics in the
Middle Ages. It was an evil, misguided, despicable thing they did. The
Crusades may as well have been Islamic Jihad. I'll leave it at that,
I'm not going to bash Catholicism, but I'll say this, I'm not defending
Christianity by defending Catholicism....because the gulf between true
Christianity and Catholicism is about as wide as the Gulf of Mexico....

I hate to burst everyones bubble but this war was caused by....(drumroll
please) US...WILL

Educated, passionate and good looking, too.

stlram72, will you marry me?

Geesh Kat...you beat me to it...he is good looking isnt he...and very
smart and a christian man to boot! What more can a woman want?

I hate to burst everyones bubble but this war was caused by....(drumroll
please) US...WILL

I think I know your reasoning.

1. Support of Saddam Hussein and Iraq against Iran in the 1980's.

2. Support of Afghanistan against the Soviet Union, again in the
1980's. Many of Bin Laden's ilk were in the resistance against the
USSR.

3. Support of Israel

4. Lashing out at certain Islamic nations for numerous reasons, while
turning a blind eye to Islamic nations that do the same......only they
are rich in oil.


1.) Support of Iraq and Saddam Hussein in the 80's was most likely a
decision of going with a lesser evil to control a much larger one.
(Iran) I don't think anyone can dispute that the Iran-Iraq war severely
hurt Iran. The decision paid off......until the invasion of
Kuwait.....and look now, Iran is rearing it's ugly head again......I
think the gov't was right, but could have gone about it differently.
Iran is right were it was in 1979 and the years leading up until the
Iran-Iraq war, only now, they are much more powerful, and they are close
to having nukes.

2.) Again, our policy disagreed with that of Afghanistan, but we're
talking about the Soviet Union here. Once again the UUSR was a menace,
and the Afghan regime a much lesser evil. Man, doesn't anyone remember
that the Soviet Union controlled half of Europe, half of Asia, and was
making gains in Central America? If you add China, you're talking more
than half the worlds population as communist.....

3.) The Arabs and Muslims vow death to Israel, they hate Israel more
than they hate us. We must protect her at all costs....IMO.

4.) This is just hypocracy on the part of the US government. Turning a
blind eye to Islamic republics that sell us oil, while lashing out at
others. I have no argument for that. We all know Washington has a
sizable mix of thieves, liars, and hypocrites.......but we are free.
IMO, I can only hope and pray for some leaders in Washington with
morals, values, and BALLS like Ronald Reagan had......

and here I thought i was the only one... THank you WILL

Unsure,

I'm "quick on the uptake", my sistah! That one is quite the package,
isn't he?

Preach it baby! Can't remember much about Reagan; much less the 80's I
was a child then and couldn't care what really went on; But, what I have
heard was that Reagan really was a good man with balls. We need more of
them these days instead of those thats running around grabbing at
themselves acting like they have some. People need to stand up on their
own feet instead of hiding behind someone else, nothing will ever come
of that. So, when it all comes down to the real matter we'd have to
fight for ourselves.