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Topic: As Promised - Oz PM Pulls All Troops From Iraq
Dragoness's photo
Tue 06/10/08 07:38 PM

Glad you asked. Unlike CNN would have you believe (especially since it's near election time) Iraqi forces are growing. The last i heard something like 80% of the country was actually being controlled by Iraqi forces (according to friends of mine that were there recently). Anyway, even when i was there iraqi forces did quite a bit more than the media will have you believe. I've personally seen them kick down doors and go after people themselves.

Kinda a sweet thing to see since they aren't so paranoid about offending their people like we are. This is why i want to personally slap anyone that thinks American soldiers are brutes that like to bomb things senslessly without regards to civilian welfare. (Especially since i am still sore about orders not to shoot at people that were shooting at me simply because they were in a mosque.)

Now, as far the country is concerned about completely taking over there are a few different factors at work here. For starters you have the Sunis and Shiites who just don't seem to agree on anything and they both want to run the place. (Sounds kinda like dems and republicansgrumble )

Another major factor is intereference from Syria and Iran. (Which you also don't hear much about from CNN). This is why i think the borders of that country should be sealed off until they get back on their feet. But anyway, you have a supposed terrorist-run country like Syria and Iran that see another country (former enemy to Iran) in peril. Kinda their best interest to ensure that we pull out so they can fund and supply which ever organization is in their best interest and BOOM they have an instant ally. (Which is why almost 50% of the insurgents i personally came into contact with (over 100) were from either of these countries.) An ally that HATES us for just leaving them there to die, and LOVES them for being their "savior". If you ask me i think this is tactically what we fear even more then the country falling under that catagory of genocide. But, also, Iraq falling under genocide would be horrible for the U.S. politically. (Which is another reason why i highly doubt any candidate will actually pull us out.)

The media has been against this cause for a long time now. And constant talks about us pulling out is pretty much encouraging those keeping us from making much progress. The media is partially to blame for our lack of success. Hell just look at Abu Graib (sp?). Why on earth anyone thought it would be a good idea to go to the press instead of the authorities (who yes would have dones something about it) really baffles me. The press, for the most part, want us to lose. Partially since many are very much affiliated with the democratic party and partially since tragety gets you much bigger ratings. (note: propoganda is our weak suit, and any terrorists strongest suit)

So i guess our struggles are the media, outside countries (Iran and Syria), and their conflicting interests. All pretty big factors. But none of these are impossible to overcome.

The media coverage should back off a bit. Stop trash talking. But this wont happen since this is the democrat's biggest advantage in the elections. (No, i am not a republican nor am i trying to trash talk the dems. Both parties have pretty much gone to hell in my opinion)

Anyway, with less of an eye focusing on every little detail with our troops and their missions they will have more success winning the hearts and minds of the people. Sealing off the borders, would help break off the threat of outside interference. This wouldn't solve the problem but it would help.

Overall i do agree that there needs to be a plan, and it seems like not a lot has been accomplished over the course of our time there. I'm not against a plan of action. Especially one that puts more pressure on the Iraqi government. But this plan shouldn't be publicised since there are so many working against us.

People for the most part are happier. They have better medical care, more food, and more rights than they ever have before. Also, no, we NEVER carpet bombed the place. Their infastructure is still in tact. We are in no way responsible for this "million" deaths people keep preaching (this number includes people dying in car accidents, domestic desputes, old age, heart attacks,etc.)

On a more personel note: I don't have a problem with anyone saying that something needs to change about our strategy. I don't even have a problem with UNBIASED investigating on why we went over in the first place. My problem is people oversimplifying a complex problem. Some people actuall think that us pulling out means the war will end...laugh :cry: laugh It won't. And even if pulling out is the best course of action (which it's not) anyone that would cheer such a thing needs to be shot at for a while. This tragic desicion is a last resort only, which means it should be sad. And we should instead have a moment of silence instead of a cheer.


I disagree, when I watch the public television channels interviewing Iraqis, this information is not what they tell. Iraqis tell a different story and I believe them.

We should not be there and we are a catalyst to their own civil disputes causing more death and problems in their communities.

Dragoness's photo
Tue 06/10/08 07:39 PM
As for the Australians pulling out good for them, we should be doing exactly the same thing as of yesterday.

Dragoness's photo
Tue 06/10/08 07:44 PM


We as a super power can occupy any country we set our will too even against the will of those being occupied what is victory in Iraq? to me victory will resemble genocide and future historians will view Bush and his gang as Nazis of some type. the only difference is we havent fired up any gas chambers.


There are millions of differences i won't get into. A few are, Saddam was a tyrant. People may have been freed against their will but they are still free. They have better medical care now than ever before. But one thing i will agree with you on is this... Maybe they do need a tyrant that will execute anyone that stands against him. Maybe they need someone that rapes and kills women for pleasure. Maybe women in that country shouldn't have any say in what goes on in their lives. Maybe technologies like cell phones and internet shouldn't be allowed. But hey, who am i to make that decision?

I guess i don't see where we are Nazi's. And i don't see where you have any credible information comparing us to Nazi's. Like i said, my personal experiences go against what the media makes us out to be. These people are way more brutal with eachother than we are with anyone. I could give you a million stories, but i am pressed for time at the moment.

Once again...i will only say this one more time. I don't agree with the way this "war" was fought. This is why politicians have no place in commanding a military. My problem is with those who cheer our loss. With those who would be happy to see our soldiers come home with their tails between their legs. This is where i have a problem. You say you support the troops. Support what they do. It will be a sad day if they are brought home before the job is done, no matter how you will look at it. That act itself would commit genocide to their people. But i guess you really don't care about that. Although, for some reason you talk about how we committed genocide already... Contradict ourselves much? I guess it's the standard left-wing approach to things.

Anyway, critizise the way the war was handled all you want. Just don't ever cheer the soldiers coming home. It will just mean more death. But most of you don't see that. Most of you don't care. Until you hold a child that was killed by an insurgent's suicide bomb i really doubt many of you will ever understand.


As for Saddam's tyranny, was it our business? He did not strike us, bin laden did, so where the hell is bin laden? Iraq paid for 9/11 with their innocent blood and still where is bin laden?

Jess642's photo
Tue 06/10/08 11:01 PM

Australian combat troops the war in Iraq is over.

The Defence Force in southern Iraq formally handed its commitment to the United States and lowered the Australian flag above Camp Terendak, at the US-run air base Tallil, at a ceremony yesterday morning.

The handover, which fulfils the Rudd Government's election commitment to withdraw Australia's combat troops from a deeply divisive war, was based on an agreement between Australian and US commanders.

About 550 soldiers, who have been overseeing Iraqi security forces in two southern provinces as well as training Iraqi troops and police, will begin returning to Australia.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/australia-lowers-flag-in-iraq/2008/06/01/1212258648064.htmldrinker




Back to our friendly original post, which was ALL about AUstralia, and no mention of the US.bigsmile

FearandLoathing's photo
Wed 06/11/08 01:08 AM


Drivinmenutz



the war is over for the ausies and I am sure many american GI's wish it were over for them.


I'm sure most of them would rather go home because the mission was accomplished...


Just out of curiosity, when do you think we can pull out from there? Yes leaving a base there is an option, but when you start to leave Iraq to the Iraqis?
Unless you plan to make it the 51st state they need to be able to care for themselves. How many more soldier killed does that take?
And don't answer "a la Bush" enough of that bull****...



First of all i say again.... Leaving is a last resort. If the Leaders and soldiers on the ground get together and report the situation a loss, that is acceptable. Everyone is drawing tactical knowledge from everyone's (mostly untrained civilians) opinions. Most of congress as well as the executive branch aren't even qualified to make tactical decisions. Honestly, i haven't heard many people actually consult military personel about whether we should give up or proceed as planned.

Another thing that bothers me is everyone hiding behind the death toll. What the eff do you think happens in a war? The number of casualties is actually quite small considering other conflicts we've had in the past. I'm not down talking the quality of soldiers lives. I've had a few friends not make it back. I say again, i've got well over 150 combat ops under my belt, so i am no stranger to the realities of this war. But this is something that happens.

Look, i'm not saying that the situation was handled wisely from the beginning. If a grunt was in charge instead of a politician the war would have been over and Iraq would have a full-working democratic government in about a year's time. Our problem tactically is everyone afraid of making citizens angry at the sight of a war. You can't fight it with roses and bunny rabbits. (Unless you're Monty Python:wink: )


Casualties happen, but we have built schools they have held democratic elections electing officials into a democratic government, they have a college built by US troops and Iraqi's. Iraq is turning around but it is coming slowly, I don't agree with the way the war started but it is nice to see a positive change to their economy...even if at a slow pace.

Drivinmenutz's photo
Wed 06/11/08 07:04 AM


Glad you asked. Unlike CNN would have you believe (especially since it's near election time) Iraqi forces are growing. The last i heard something like 80% of the country was actually being controlled by Iraqi forces (according to friends of mine that were there recently). Anyway, even when i was there iraqi forces did quite a bit more than the media will have you believe. I've personally seen them kick down doors and go after people themselves.

Kinda a sweet thing to see since they aren't so paranoid about offending their people like we are. This is why i want to personally slap anyone that thinks American soldiers are brutes that like to bomb things senslessly without regards to civilian welfare. (Especially since i am still sore about orders not to shoot at people that were shooting at me simply because they were in a mosque.)

Now, as far the country is concerned about completely taking over there are a few different factors at work here. For starters you have the Sunis and Shiites who just don't seem to agree on anything and they both want to run the place. (Sounds kinda like dems and republicansgrumble )

Another major factor is intereference from Syria and Iran. (Which you also don't hear much about from CNN). This is why i think the borders of that country should be sealed off until they get back on their feet. But anyway, you have a supposed terrorist-run country like Syria and Iran that see another country (former enemy to Iran) in peril. Kinda their best interest to ensure that we pull out so they can fund and supply which ever organization is in their best interest and BOOM they have an instant ally. (Which is why almost 50% of the insurgents i personally came into contact with (over 100) were from either of these countries.) An ally that HATES us for just leaving them there to die, and LOVES them for being their "savior". If you ask me i think this is tactically what we fear even more then the country falling under that catagory of genocide. But, also, Iraq falling under genocide would be horrible for the U.S. politically. (Which is another reason why i highly doubt any candidate will actually pull us out.)

The media has been against this cause for a long time now. And constant talks about us pulling out is pretty much encouraging those keeping us from making much progress. The media is partially to blame for our lack of success. Hell just look at Abu Graib (sp?). Why on earth anyone thought it would be a good idea to go to the press instead of the authorities (who yes would have dones something about it) really baffles me. The press, for the most part, want us to lose. Partially since many are very much affiliated with the democratic party and partially since tragety gets you much bigger ratings. (note: propoganda is our weak suit, and any terrorists strongest suit)

So i guess our struggles are the media, outside countries (Iran and Syria), and their conflicting interests. All pretty big factors. But none of these are impossible to overcome.

The media coverage should back off a bit. Stop trash talking. But this wont happen since this is the democrat's biggest advantage in the elections. (No, i am not a republican nor am i trying to trash talk the dems. Both parties have pretty much gone to hell in my opinion)

Anyway, with less of an eye focusing on every little detail with our troops and their missions they will have more success winning the hearts and minds of the people. Sealing off the borders, would help break off the threat of outside interference. This wouldn't solve the problem but it would help.

Overall i do agree that there needs to be a plan, and it seems like not a lot has been accomplished over the course of our time there. I'm not against a plan of action. Especially one that puts more pressure on the Iraqi government. But this plan shouldn't be publicised since there are so many working against us.

People for the most part are happier. They have better medical care, more food, and more rights than they ever have before. Also, no, we NEVER carpet bombed the place. Their infastructure is still in tact. We are in no way responsible for this "million" deaths people keep preaching (this number includes people dying in car accidents, domestic desputes, old age, heart attacks,etc.)

On a more personel note: I don't have a problem with anyone saying that something needs to change about our strategy. I don't even have a problem with UNBIASED investigating on why we went over in the first place. My problem is people oversimplifying a complex problem. Some people actuall think that us pulling out means the war will end...laugh :cry: laugh It won't. And even if pulling out is the best course of action (which it's not) anyone that would cheer such a thing needs to be shot at for a while. This tragic desicion is a last resort only, which means it should be sad. And we should instead have a moment of silence instead of a cheer.


I disagree, when I watch the public television channels interviewing Iraqis, this information is not what they tell. Iraqis tell a different story and I believe them.

We should not be there and we are a catalyst to their own civil disputes causing more death and problems in their communities.


The Iraqis that the TV stations interview may tell a different story. This is where i point out that most of what the news puts out is biased. They are trying to tell me i saw a goat when i really saw a cat. (Metaphorically speaking of course.) Believe them if you want.

Let me tell you a story... I was stationed at a post just outside of Sadr City toward the end of my tour in country. I heard the unit that we were replacing tell our officers about the Wuhabi (sp?) that lived in that section of town. Iraq is a third world country, so they didn't have much to begin with. Running water was a luxury even in the cities. Anyway, because they threw their own sewage out their window, American soldiers decided to do them a favor by putting in a sewage system. Well the engineers kept coming under attack while doing this. After taking a few casualties they decided that it wasn't worth it. The wuhabi rejoiced since they got those "pesky" Americans out of their town. Well, after the celebration appearently the clan decided to run all the suni's and shiites out of their town as well. After a lot of fighting they were successful in this too. Then for some reason they started killing each other.

Benjamin Franklin once said "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Maybe he was right. Maybe the people of Iraq aren't capable of freedom. But when we officially declare this, it should be a sad day. Also a day in which we change ourselves and our philosophies about what our government should be doing. We should also already be successful in sealing off our own borders before doing this because we will have many, many more enemies if we suddenly abandon these people. All those schools we built, and hope we gave the people about possibly having control over their own lives will suddenly be abandoned and accompanied by a civil war. The end of which will probably bring about a new dictator.

Anyone with any tactical sense, and/or anyone that has seen this all from an unbiased perspective knows that we are preventing this civil war. Sorta like we did with the Wuhabi. But, when we gave up that area for a bit look what happened. Bush didn't tell me what happened, my fellow soldiers did. (Grunts, the guys that actually saw it.) All most people, including yourself have to base anything on Dragoness, is just propoganda. I guess it all comes down to what you would believe. Would you believe a story George Washington himself told about the signing of our Declaration of Independence (providing he were still alive), or would you believe what the history books tell you (if it contradicted what he said)?

Try to have an open mind. A situation can be both good and bad.

Drivinmenutz's photo
Wed 06/11/08 07:16 AM

As for the Australians pulling out good for them, we should be doing exactly the same thing as of yesterday.


The reason the Aussies are pulling out is just political. They would rather dump this all in our laps so they don't have to answer any question as to why they were helping us in the first place. They will just play ignorant.

Look, i don't agree with how we started the situation, as Fear was saying. I would have handled it very different. Because grunts don't care so much about winning everyone's approval, the situation would have been over (To include catching Bin Laden in Afganistan) years ago. Politics is why we are still in this mess. Not lack of military capability. This is our weakness.

Anyway, we are perfectly capable of standing on our own two feet (like Fanta was saying) and we really don't need the Aussies. There weren't that many of them there to begin with. They certainly weren't breaking down many doors. (No offense to them.)

What i am trying to let everyone know, here, and now, is that they should understand the wieght of the decision to pull out. Anyone who understands this will never cheer any troop removal before the job is done. It's like cheering and inevitable, but cowardly act. Like leaving a friend behind (to die) in a drastic situation for fear of both of you dying. It's not something we, or anyone should feel good about.

Furthermore, thank you Fear for your insight. We have done good things there. But since it's politicians that are trying to do things, everything is happening slowly. At this point it is still possible to complete the mission. There is much work to be done. And it ain't over till the guys actually doing the fighting say it's over.


FearandLoathing's photo
Wed 06/11/08 11:46 AM


As for the Australians pulling out good for them, we should be doing exactly the same thing as of yesterday.


The reason the Aussies are pulling out is just political. They would rather dump this all in our laps so they don't have to answer any question as to why they were helping us in the first place. They will just play ignorant.

Look, i don't agree with how we started the situation, as Fear was saying. I would have handled it very different. Because grunts don't care so much about winning everyone's approval, the situation would have been over (To include catching Bin Laden in Afganistan) years ago. Politics is why we are still in this mess. Not lack of military capability. This is our weakness.

Anyway, we are perfectly capable of standing on our own two feet (like Fanta was saying) and we really don't need the Aussies. There weren't that many of them there to begin with. They certainly weren't breaking down many doors. (No offense to them.)

What i am trying to let everyone know, here, and now, is that they should understand the wieght of the decision to pull out. Anyone who understands this will never cheer any troop removal before the job is done. It's like cheering and inevitable, but cowardly act. Like leaving a friend behind (to die) in a drastic situation for fear of both of you dying. It's not something we, or anyone should feel good about.

Furthermore, thank you Fear for your insight. We have done good things there. But since it's politicians that are trying to do things, everything is happening slowly. At this point it is still possible to complete the mission. There is much work to be done. And it ain't over till the guys actually doing the fighting say it's over.




As I said I don't agree with how it started or was handled in the beginning stages, but that is done with and there is nothing that can be done about that now. We have a responsibility to stay and insure that they are near 100% in Iraq before we can pull out, we went there and did what we did that caused the current situation Iraq is in but we can't turn tail and leave now. There is a lot of positive things happening in Iraq currently, I have heard it from several friends that have served over there the only problem is it is not happening at a quick enough pace...think about this; when the first democratic election was held in Iraq how much of it did you see on CNN/Fox/MSNBC? But when a truck blows up outside Baghdad killing 5 it gets a 5-10 minute segment on the news...good news doesn't sell, so they won't report it.

tim20721's photo
Wed 06/11/08 12:31 PM
Edited by tim20721 on Wed 06/11/08 12:36 PM

That sounds exactly what I would expect a good grunt to say driven. Exactly what the military tells you. There is no way you can expect to know anything outside your AO, let alone all Iraq! You have either read it like the rest of us or going by what the military tells you. They would love to silence the and media have complete censorship of the truth.
================================================================
http://www.mercurynews.com/politics/ci_9462259 >>>Like this,

"What can we say to the American public to say ... there are some things you can see that will make you feel better about what our military is doing and any progress we have made?"—Question posed by an unidentified military analyst to then-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Peter Pace in an April 2006 conference call.

or this,

I have written an essay, if you will, on the subject, which I'm supposed to talk about and record this afternoon. I wonder if I might just send it to you for a truth check if that's OK."—Retired Army Maj. Gen. Robert Scales to Defense Department officials during a June 2006 conference call on the involvement of Marines in the 2005 killings of Iraqis in Haditha.

or this,

"If you allow the Chris Matthews or the Wolf Blitzers of the world to immediately start dissecting the standup of that government and say this guy is bad, (Iraqi politician Ahmed) Chalabi's a crook ... and you don't respond immediately, we are going to lose that capability to say what we did was honorable and good and right."—Unidentified military analyst in April 2006 call, advising Rumsfeld to be more aggressive in responding to critical questions by the media.

================================================================

First, Were you there before the war?
Do you consider all the bombing victims that die daily to be natural deaths, and do you think they happened before the war?
I'll answer, NO, NO, and NO!

Do you speak Arabic?
How do you know they are happier?
Every report I've read says 68% of Iraqis think its okay to kill American Soldiers, and even more want us to leave.

The Iraq military,
Last count-180,000 trained equipped and ready, according to Petraeus! Far more than we have there, but as demonstrated in Basra and Sadr City, they wont fight and are ineffective.

Control-80%, that must be a misprint because that isn't even close to being accurate. The US military doesn't even have control over 80% of the country.

If Sadr doesn't maintain his seize fire agreements, the death count of American troops goes up, and the loyalty of the Iraqi troops goes South. I'd almost say he has more control in Iraq than anyone else.

Probably the Iraqis you see kicking in doors is more ethnic violence and bravado when American troops are standing across the street watching. Quite a bit of the Iraqi Army consists of Sunni militia's taken in whole when the Iraqis couldn't get anyone else to fight. (See Basra)




And in 1968 the American anti war media proclaimed the Thet offensive a huge US loss, forcing the Government into peace talks that did nothing more than tie US hands while the enemy had no restrictions to follow. Months later the truth of the failure of Thet was released and ignored by the population. Sounds a bit like the current reaction to the surge doesn't it.


Keep believing the media, they don't have an agenda of their own, of course they are true professionals and deliver the facts without bias. Of course the people who have been there are just drinking the koolade. (For those that didn't catch it I am being sarcastic)

Jess642's photo
Thu 06/12/08 12:01 AM


As for the Australians pulling out good for them, we should be doing exactly the same thing as of yesterday.


The reason the Aussies are pulling out is just political. They would rather dump this all in our laps so they don't have to answer any question as to why they were helping us in the first place. They will just play ignorant.

Look, i don't agree with how we started the situation, as Fear was saying. I would have handled it very different. Because grunts don't care so much about winning everyone's approval, the situation would have been over (To include catching Bin Laden in Afganistan) years ago. Politics is why we are still in this mess. Not lack of military capability. This is our weakness.

Anyway, we are perfectly capable of standing on our own two feet (like Fanta was saying) and we really don't need the Aussies. There weren't that many of them there to begin with. They certainly weren't breaking down many doors. (No offense to them.)

What i am trying to let everyone know, here, and now, is that they should understand the wieght of the decision to pull out. Anyone who understands this will never cheer any troop removal before the job is done. It's like cheering and inevitable, but cowardly act. Like leaving a friend behind (to die) in a drastic situation for fear of both of you dying. It's not something we, or anyone should feel good about.

Furthermore, thank you Fear for your insight. We have done good things there. But since it's politicians that are trying to do things, everything is happening slowly. At this point it is still possible to complete the mission. There is much work to be done. And it ain't over till the guys actually doing the fighting say it's over.




What a crock of ****E!!!! Mr I know everything the rest of the world knows nothing!!!!:angry:

Brian65's photo
Thu 06/12/08 12:35 AM


The US military can stand on its own (we dont need help)
Bush said to the world early on, you're either with us or against us.(69% of Americans have said they dont stand with him)




When Bush said that (well before we attacked Iraq) this country was all about kicking terrist ass. So get your stats and facts straight.
It's misquotes and made up statistics from ignorant americans who jump on the bandwagon that is hurting our troops.

FearandLoathing's photo
Thu 06/12/08 01:20 AM



As for the Australians pulling out good for them, we should be doing exactly the same thing as of yesterday.


The reason the Aussies are pulling out is just political. They would rather dump this all in our laps so they don't have to answer any question as to why they were helping us in the first place. They will just play ignorant.

Look, i don't agree with how we started the situation, as Fear was saying. I would have handled it very different. Because grunts don't care so much about winning everyone's approval, the situation would have been over (To include catching Bin Laden in Afganistan) years ago. Politics is why we are still in this mess. Not lack of military capability. This is our weakness.

Anyway, we are perfectly capable of standing on our own two feet (like Fanta was saying) and we really don't need the Aussies. There weren't that many of them there to begin with. They certainly weren't breaking down many doors. (No offense to them.)

What i am trying to let everyone know, here, and now, is that they should understand the wieght of the decision to pull out. Anyone who understands this will never cheer any troop removal before the job is done. It's like cheering and inevitable, but cowardly act. Like leaving a friend behind (to die) in a drastic situation for fear of both of you dying. It's not something we, or anyone should feel good about.

Furthermore, thank you Fear for your insight. We have done good things there. But since it's politicians that are trying to do things, everything is happening slowly. At this point it is still possible to complete the mission. There is much work to be done. And it ain't over till the guys actually doing the fighting say it's over.




What a crock of ****E!!!! Mr I know everything the rest of the world knows nothing!!!!:angry:


He knows a great deal more than I do, afterall he was in Iraq for awhile in the Army...Airborne I believe?

transientmind's photo
Thu 06/12/08 02:37 AM
Edited by transientmind on Thu 06/12/08 02:37 AM


"A super idjit, perhaps?"

Wow, you crack me up... not really....but seriously... Your contempt for a country that has done nothing to you astounds me. Fortunately, anyone with any critical thinking ability immediately dismisses your comments from the conversation (unless they are just laughing). Your contempt makes your views too biased to be taken seriously.

Next, Sam, i know you have compassion for your fellow person and this is commendable. You say that i have been influenced by propoganda, but if you take one look at yourself, that is literally all you have to base your opinion on. I can give you specific missions where insurgents directly targeted Iraqi civilians. I have seen it. I have been there. I have personally taken down high priority targets (You know the ones with multi million dollar rewards on their heads). I've got 150+ combat ops under my belt in this very conflict. I am less influenced by propoganda than most in these forums.

"There are millions of differences i won't get into. A few are, Saddam was a tyrant. People may have been freed against their will but they are still free. They have better medical care now than ever before. But one thing i will agree with you on is this... Maybe they do need a tyrant that will execute anyone that stands against him. Maybe they need someone that rapes and kills women for pleasure. Maybe women in that country shouldn't have any say in what goes on in their lives. Maybe technologies like cell phones and internet shouldn't be allowed. But hey, who am i to make that decision? "

And just in case anyone misunderstood that, i was being sarcastic, not heartless. These are all things that changed upon our arrival that many fail to see. (Unless you've roamed the streets a bit.)


Thanks for the judgement call... and how did this end up ONCE AGAIN ALL about the US???

It WAS about the Aussie PM..


I really don't know how to act. A politician that keeps his word? To his own people of all things...

I'm suspicious.

Fanta46's photo
Thu 06/12/08 06:46 AM
Edited by Fanta46 on Thu 06/12/08 06:47 AM
In a sharp rebuke to European countries reluctant to bolster their forces in the war-torn country, defence minister Joel Fitzgibbon said: "I am of the view that we need at the very least an additional 10,000 troops in Afghanistan and to be frank I don’t see any Europeans who look likely to put up substantial numbers any time soon.

"I fear it will fall to the US to do a lot on the military front and I sense a willingness on their part to do so. But, of course, they have enormous concurrency issues. They are overstretched."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/2074581/Australia-calls-for-10,000-more-troops-in-Afghanistan.html

The Australian leaders arent against war driven. Just the wrong war!
Afghanistan is where all the US troops need to be. Then we wouldnt be stretched so thin.drinker

Drivinmenutz's photo
Thu 06/12/08 07:37 AM

In a sharp rebuke to European countries reluctant to bolster their forces in the war-torn country, defence minister Joel Fitzgibbon said: "I am of the view that we need at the very least an additional 10,000 troops in Afghanistan and to be frank I don’t see any Europeans who look likely to put up substantial numbers any time soon.

"I fear it will fall to the US to do a lot on the military front and I sense a willingness on their part to do so. But, of course, they have enormous concurrency issues. They are overstretched."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/2074581/Australia-calls-for-10,000-more-troops-in-Afghanistan.html

The Australian leaders arent against war driven. Just the wrong war!
Afghanistan is where all the US troops need to be. Then we wouldnt be stretched so thin.drinker


If they are switching fronts, then i don't have a problem. But i am not seeing very many people say "we should transfer the troops to Afganistan". All i keep hearing is "bring the troops home". It seems to be a trend. I would also have an easier time accepting our defeat if we learned something from it. Like, changed our policy for government interference. For instance, shrink the government. Limit their involvement everywhere. But nobody really preaches this either (this is why i didn't mind Ron Paul wanting to pull out. At least he would have changed the U.S.'s philosophy of being interdependent with the rest of the world, and becoming more dependent again.) I'm not trying to be closed minded. But everyone has this retarded idea that ending the war will change everything. This is a false assumption. Ending the war will bring millions to their deaths. The media doesn't care about this. They just want everyone to jump on the bandwagon. Especially if it means changing their votes from Republican to democrat (which is another retarded mistake people make.) Nobody cares about national security. Look at our open borders. All people really want is to not have to worry anymore, and be taken care of from "cradle to grave". This is cowardly. This is irresponsible. This goes against what America was originally created to stand for.

The Aussies want to transfer troops to Afganistan, good for them. Although realistically Bin Laden is long gone from there. (This is where it would be nice if covert groups like the CIA would do their job internationally.) But morally, we still do have an obligation to finish what we started in Iraq as Fear was explaining earlier. I don't care whether the decision to go over in the first place was a good one or not. I don't even care if the war was legal to begin with. Frankly i don't even care if CNN convinced "x" amount of Iraqi's they hate Americans. Everybody hates us. For some reason this includes everybody that ends up benefiting from our aid.

Fanta46's photo
Thu 06/12/08 08:37 AM
Edited by Fanta46 on Thu 06/12/08 08:44 AM
I understand what you are saying about changing US foreign policy going hand and hand with withdrawing troops from Iraq. It has been suggested many time by others and me, but it seems to get lost with the stay and finish at all cost rhetoric.
I never hear the same people who say pull the troops out of Iraq or talk about the wars legality say the same about Afghanistan. The people that attacked us were based in Afghanistan and have been largely ignored by the Bush Administrations personal motivation for invading Iraq.
Even if his motivation was taking out a rogue and brutal dictator. (not) I dont see how keeping American Troops in Iraq and participating one-sided in their civil war is accomplishing anything.
Does the Bush Administration think that by staying and implementing a steady propaganda campaign on the Iraqi people will eventually result in them accepting a gov we pushed on them and forget any ideas of a gov they chose for themselves? If so, we should consider never leaving because they will just revert to a gov of their choice as soon as we leave whether it is tomorrow or 50 years from tomorrow. Look at the history of our involvement in a similar policy, concerning Iran that came crashing to an end in 1978! It will never work. In the meantime, while putting off the inevitable deaths of Iraqis, we are trading the lives of American soldiers today and causing more hatred of America with every Iraqi death that is a direct result of our policies.
IMO, it is better that we leave now, and accept the deaths of Iraqis by Iraqis that is going to happen eventually anyway. Let them rebuild their own country while ensuring other countries are not directly involved militarily.
Let them take all of what has happened as a reminder and a lesson about what happens when you screw with America. If they dont get it the first time then rinse and repeat till they do!

We won the war in 42 days. What is happening now is just an exercise in futility!

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