This questions was asked of me a few days ago during a friendly discussion with a Christian friend of mine. But in practical terms it has been asked of all skeptics hundreds of times in as many ways. Some ask me because they knew me when I subscribed to the main tenants of the Christian faith while other seem to ask the question as a subtle way of invoking a special kind of hubris generally reserved for the unflinchingly pious.

The friend who asked me the other day however is a friend--he was not attempting to attack or discredit, to argue or to slander. His question was sincere and it is with the same sincerity that I try to convey in this post the answer that I gave him.

If at the moment of my last breath the universe opens and I find myself standing before a loving and patient and just father and if that father is the God of the Bible and if while standing there I am asked why I did not accept and believe according to the Bible, and moreover I am asked what (if anything) I have to say for myself, my answer will not be a long winded diatribe or a plea. It will be simple and it will be the only answer appropriate:

"I was wrong."

That's right--I would admit that I was wrong. If a moment was given me before being separated from the father for all of eternity via a trip to everlasting pain, thirst, hell-fire and never-ending torment I would do my best to explain my reasons, of Zoroaster, and of a number of other gods who came before Christ but whose stories were amazingly similar. I would ask about my being born guilty of a crime committed by the human condition that occurred thousands of years before I was born.

But really, I would simply say:

"I was wrong."

According to most, at this point it would be too late for me. At that point (according to most mainstream Christian doctrines) I would be cast away from God. At that point, God, unable to look at the sinful child he created would reject me for being skeptical of him. That there were thousands of religions, many claiming their divine correctness, that many things were done in his name that cannot be morally or ethically accepted or justified, that there I used the mind given me by God--none of that would matter.

At that point I would have the evidence I looked for in life. But at that same moment, when the evidence a skeptic needs is provided the door would shut, the game would be over, eternity would be set.

I do not believe it likely that such a meeting will take place but then again, I do not know--cannot prove, and neither can anyone else.

We ask for proof in so many areas of our lives and our lives ask for the same. Our entire legal system is based on proof, on evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Can you imagine a jury returning a verdict that stated: "I have faith of your guilt." Can you imagine anything more grotesque? No, we demand proof, evidence. Would you allow someone to operate on your child who could not prove he/she was a medical expert? What if they simply had faith that they would perform the surgery without complication? Would you not report them as a fraud?

These are all good things. We should investigate, we should know, we should be sure. This allows me to live comfortably around different people of varying beliefs and ideas.

Why is the proof we ask for in life, for the simple things not applicable when it comes to eternity? Why would "I was wrong" close the door on eternity?

The answer is as cruel as it is obvious. It wouldn't have to--it could only count for nothing in the eyes of a vengeful, hateful, petty and heartless god.

-Drew

Why is the proof we ask for in life, for the simple things not applicable when it comes to eternity? Why would "I was wrong" close the door on eternity?

The answer is as cruel as it is obvious. It wouldn't have to--it could only count for nothing in the eyes of a vengeful, hateful, petty and heartless god.

-Drew

true.

and to find yourself there, you would still be asking yourself if God is vengeful, hateful, petty and heartless.... and cruel above all else.

The reason being, you haven't resolved that for yourself yet. Your judgement has no reference point to alter it's own validity and veracity without having tested it in the crucible of your conscience. It cannot be accomplished after the fact, can it?

That would be a bankrupt drift for you.

It would not be merciful and graceful and truthful to leave you so deprived of your resolve.

where would be room for your self esteem, let alone the esteem for any if your own is now found bankrupt by such a meeting.

At such a meeting, what could you yield to? You wouldn't know what you are yielding or what you are yielding to.

At such a meeting, I expect that no words would be necessary.



In the meantime, remember the disadvantaged and inderprivileged and disenfranchised and the suffering and identify with that compassionately and with sincere and genuine sympathy.

That alone will give you the knowledge you will need to be at rest, should you find yourself wrong.

Being wrong about the association of oneself with those that despitefully use others is not wrong.

Being wrong about having a treasure trove of memories regarding your own sympathy and compassion towards others less fortunate than yourself is never a waste of time.


Come what may, Drew.

Drew, you speak well, I like your analogies and your logic seems to come from a center that has been balanced.

When we are "proven" to be wrong we can only admit our error. We use our faith to walk in the world. We trust that when we set foot past our front door, every day, we will return. We trust that when our children leaver our sight for the day, that we will see them that evening. We trust that the sun will shine and the sky will remain blue because it has been so for all of known history.

As you said, we are a physical being and our nature is to require physical proof. If we were a spiritual being put into a physical body then it would make sense that we should have memory of the spiritual, but we don't. So for all itents and purposes, we are just physical beings, living up to our physicl nature.

We will make mistakes, and we would think a creator would understand that.

According to Jesus, if the Bible is true, I have nothing to worry about. I won't even be judged by God at all. The gates of heaven will open for me like the automatic doors at Wal-mart I'll walk right in. St. Peter will merely nod at me with a gentle recognition that I don't need to be interrogated. I'm exempt to judgment according to Jesus. He said so in the Bible.

God will have prepared a place for me in Seventh Heaven and I will be ushered to my new home without any questions being asked whatsoever. For the Bible tells me so.

Do I believe that this will actually happen? Kind of yes, and kind of no.

You see I don't chose what to believe. I believe whatever makes sense. This is how God created me. This is the mind that God gave to me. I can say that I don't believe that God and the spiritual world is dependent on what I believe. I believe they either exist or they don't.

However, at the same time, I'm also aware that I could be wrong. God and the spirit world may very well depend on what I believe. I've actually been considering this recently. This is probably outside of the scope of most people's thinking. But those who are familiar with Jeanniebean's posts and the Law of Attraction may understand.

It is a very real possibility that we think reality into being. If that's the case we may very well think the spiritual world into being when we leave this world. If that's true, then it's hard to say where I'll go from here. That's because I'm not prepared to think my way into a new reality. I'm under the totally erroneous belief that it will be predetermined. By that I mean, there will either be a Godhead who is running "Hotel Heaven", or I will go to my "Spiritual Library" that I always dream of and be reincarnated into another physical life.

Or possibly something else may happen (not the least of which is that could just black out of existence like the atheists believe). Of course, if that happens I'll never know it happened and there won't be any bad consequence to that because I simply won't be around to think about it anymore. Actually dying like that isn't really bad at all because once your dead it's over and there's nothing to resent or feel bad about.

So now I guess the question is which would I prefer? The "Hotel Heaven" or the "Spiritual Library"? Actually I prefer the "Spiritual Library" and the endless reincarnations. So I'm thinking this is what I should focus on if I want to manifest that through the law of attraction.

If the "Hotel Heaven" turns out to be true I'm not sure what I'll do. I'll probably check in and see what it's all about. The only problem with that picture is that if "Hotel Heaven" is true then "Hotel Hell" must also be true. Not that I'm personally afraid of being sent there. But just knowing it exists for other people is a sad thought.

If the "Spiritual Library" is true, then that's where everyone goes. There's no need for a "Hotel Hell" in that scenario. That's one very big reason why I find it more attractive. There are other reasons as well.


I'm not the slightest bit concerned about being sent to "Hotel Hell". That's not even a possibility.

Why? Because God has to be more compassionate the men. And wiser, more intelligent, etc, etc, etc,. To send me to hell would be an extremely unjust and uncompassionate act. I most certainly have never done anything in my entire life to deserve such a fate. To be punished for no good reason would be totally unjustified and inhumane. God is not supposed to be unjust and inhumane. Any God who would send me to hell could only be a demonic sadist to begin with. So that's just not even a possibility. Unless we were created by a demonic sadist just for his sadistic pleasure. But I certainly don't believe that.

So I'm in great hands no matter what turns out to be true.

I'll never believe that our creator is so sadistic that he would punish good people simply because they didn't worship an ancient archaic inconsistent doctrine just to appease the Christians. Christians seem to want God to be a demon who supports their beliefs, and punish everyone who doesn't bow down to THEM. They don't seem to be concerned with what God wants at all.

I'm not the slightest bit concerned with appeasing the Christians. They may think they are God, but they are not. God has to be much bigger than the Christians only with a lot smaller ego.

I'm totally at peace with my creator. I know that whatever is in store for me will be good. I simply deserve no less. I trust that God is righteous.

Drew, Redy, and others here who don't believe yet.....

Allow me to share something with you.....

Except the Holy Spirit DRAW you , you will not believe.


At the right time, the Holy Spirit will draw you, and your heart WILL be ready to receive...but only God knows when that time will be for each person.

But Right now , some of you are not there yet.
Theefore not ready.
But that time will come .

But until then, Jesus and Christianty just won't make any sense.
And why should it?

Of course it is not going to make sense.
Cause You are not born again yet.

But when you do finally get saved(born again), it will be Only because the Holy Spirit is drawing you and preparing your heart to recieve .

Meaning..... God will give you every chance to recieve Him and Know Him ,before you leave this world.

But God thru His Holy Sprit is a gentleman ...meaning, He won't force Himself on you to accept Him....but He will wooo yoo and gently draw you unto Himself.

And when that does happen,when you feel that wooing of the Holy Spirit... you will be ready to receive...cause God will have prepared your heart to recieve...and then Jesus and Christianity will FINALLY make sense.

So rest.
Trust God.
He is not a cruel God.
He WILL give you a chance to get to know Him.
As He is already doing.

And for some... if perchance, God is already Wooing you?
Do not be afraid.
Yield to His wooing..and Trust in Him.
Cause God is Good.
And Merciful.
And Wonderful.
And Patient.
And Loving.
And Kind.

But for others right now....if you don't yet feel the drawing of the Holy Spirit on your life yet....that's ok.
It's not quite your time to recieve.

But just know....
God
ain't done with you yet.

You just don't know that day yet... is still to come.

But one day, you all will have a chance to come to know God...Cause God is Merciful and Just and Patient...and Willing that NO man should perish.....and because of His great Mercy, God WILL give you all a chance to Get to Know Him.

In fact.....even right now, God is already letting You know about Him....rigth here on this forum.....
and is even already preparing the hearts of some.

Btw....None of you are here
by accident .
Did you know that?flowerforyou:

But know this also.....

One day, when your hearts ARE prepared to the point....where you WILL be willing and ready to believe and recieve,
you will do so WILLINGLY.

Meaning.....God will not be forcing you to beleive, or nothing like that.

But ...when you ARE ready to recieve...
God will come gently knocking on your hearts door..after your heart has been prepared to recieve Him.....and becasue yuor heart will have been prepared, you will gladly open up your heart and say," Come in Lord Jesus".

Yes....With tears of Joy you will WILLINGLY welcome Jesus into your heart....cause the time will have come for you.

As God has an appointed time for every man, when He will come knocking on every man's heart door....and give every man a chance to recieve Him.
Yes every man.

That is why God says to His body of believers, to go tell the untold...so every man will have opportunity to hear.


But until then,
nothing will makes sense about Jesus and Christianity for some of you..and it shouldn't.
Cause the time to believe and recieve has not yet come for you.
Not just yet.
But it will.

And when that day does comes ?
It will be a glad day for you ....indeed.
Promise.

Peace and Love to You All.....
heart:

And...

Happy Memorial Day!!!!!!

One last thing......

After Recieving Jesus....

You KNOW You are Born again....

and also....

You KNOW where you are going.

No Doubts .

None Whatsoever.

YOU JUST KNOW..............

Abra wrote and I quote....

"...I'm totally at peace with my creator. I know that whatever is in store for me will be good. I simply deserve no less. I trust that God is righteous......"


Yes...God is Righteous and Good...

and that is why I know in my heart.....
that God just ain't done making Himself known to you, Abra.

Here I have a question myself.
I hesitate to be forgiven and reborn.
The reason is, how many times can one be reborn and forgiven?

If I ask today and sin tomorrow is it appropriate to ask forgiveness again and be reborn all over?
This probably seems silly to most, but it does cause me hesitation.

????

Fanta....Once you have asked Jesus into your heart as your Lord and Saviour..and MEANT it , you are BORN AGAIN.
No need to get born again, all over again.

Just like a baby is born into the world...once it is born, it doesn't have to be born all over again, each time it poo poos in its diaper...right?

Same with spiritually becoming born again... you don't need to be born again ,all over again, each time you poo poo in your spiritual diaper...but if you do still sin (and you will sometimes still sin)....then God NOW only sees the blood of Jesus after you are born again,when and if you do sin.

And You NOW have an advocate with the Father thru Christ Jesus, Who is Faithful and Just to forgive you of all your sins, and cleanse you of all your unrigthteousness ...each time you make a boo boo... or poo poo(sin).

BUT Fanta...here is the thing.....
even though You may still sin on occasion, you will NOT WANT to KEEP sinning....once you truly become Born again.

Yes.. you may be still tempted to sin, and will sometimes slip..but it will GRIEVE the Holy Spirit in you when you do sin...and you will quickly RUN back to the Father and ask for forgivness..IF you are truly born again, that is.


Fanta....as you grow in the Word, the Holy Spirit in you will help your spirit man to overcome the temptaions of the flesh ,or carnal nature.

God said to CRUCIFY the flesh....Amen?

God's Word says.....

Walk in the spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
That is the key to overcomng the desires of the fleshly nature..which may cause you to still sin, if you yield to them instead of to the Holy Spirit.

But....When you fix your mind and eyes on Jesus instead of the old nature's desires....your fleshly nature will grow weaker and weaker as your spirit man gets stronger and stronger...but it depends on which one you are feeding......the new nature or the old nature....Amen?

But...As you do grow in Christ, you will want to please the Father.

Does that mean you won't sin again ever?
No.
BUT....if you do.... it will grieve the Holy Spirit in you... and you will in brokeness, run to God and ask Him to forgive you....whereas before you were born again, sinning did not bother you one bit.
Remember?

But the fact that it BOTHERS you now to sin.... and it GRIEVES the Holy Spirit in you when you do sin , PROVES that YOU ARE born again!!

But again...IF you are a child of God....You Will NOT WANT to CONTINUE sinning.

In fact, You just CAN'T continue sinning like you did before being saved....cause you are a new creature in Christ Jesus now..and simply won't WANT to displease the Father.

And You WON'T continue sinning.......not if you Love God.

But the old flesh and carnal nature will still war agaisnt each other.....but if you feed your brand new spirit man daily with the Word of God, your new man in you will become stronger....while the old carnal nature in you will become weaker.

BUT, if you are still feeding the old fleshly nature, and not feeding the spirit?
Well....Which do you think will become the stronger?

OK

forgiveness and rebirth are two completely different things here.

forgiveness is, it just is. But what does the conscience do with it? If a particular cut of a diamond hes 52 facets, is it important to polish only one facet at a time to completion? More than likely, not likely. It involves some finesse to find the appropriateness ofthat facet in relationship to all of the others incumbent upon the that particular diamond in its complete and fully polished state.

Here a little and there a little as the whole takes shape. We are like that.

Asking forgiveness incessantly of the same person we may have offended at some point can be tiresome for both, so let's say that some measure of change must occur if one is intent on not always asking for forgiveness of the same person for the same affront or indiscretion. And to be credible, the one forgiving would more laikely than not enjoy being respected enough to not have to endure the same problem incessantly thus requiring endless and pointless forgiveness.

But forgiving ourselves for things offending our own conscience is the first place to start.

So, I start with me on me.

In doing so, I may find that I am better served with understanding my own conscience, but how? and where will this come from? I don't have it.

I went to God. The Holy Spirit came and teaches me things I am not capable of knowing without it's presence. That was a rebirth in my inner person. A new guidance, not just my flesh telling me what it wants, but a spiritual influence guiding my soul to understand itself, and grow, and not be left making decisions for good without the motives of a just good to insure a perfect end.

This concept of forgiveness and rebirth is a uniquely Christian one, so I speak to that, as though that is the train of thought intended.

Forgiveness works. We can do that alone, for ourselves and for others. It doesn't always bear fruit, so to speak, perfectly every time, but yet it is always present and free.

Jesus taught that one must be born again of water and spirit . Baptism is the answer of a clear conscience towards God, but not a finished work. It is the beginning of the work.

That work comes from the leading of the Holy Spirit, which is the intended end to Jesus' words on the matter.

That comes from God, not man.

Forgiveness, we can do.

Victory over the need for forgiveness, or the need to give it incessantly towards others , we cannot do, apart from God as intended for the victory over offences which are many and are judged by God as things done or not done to others, as well as to ourselves. Man and man's relationship with his fellow man are at the heart of that forgiveness. Despite the object lessons clouding that pretext.

We can perform a water baptism by our will and with the answer of a clear conscience TOWARDS God in that regard, but the baptism of the spirit is left to God to perform, and not man. There may be witnesses to that baptism, but the evidence of such a baptism is distinct and not a willful fabrication of the mindset. It is a transmutation within of one's spirit that a difference may be known between spirit and soul, and that can only come from God.

If water baptism doesn't lead to the baptism of the spirit, then it is not a finished work.

Seek another for that and start over until it happens as a completed work. It may be that the witnesses available are not approved of God.

But as a child just learning to walk in rebirth, one is not immediately full of knowledge and wisdom. That is taught by God, but gided by men so having been exercised themselves and having come to maturity themselves, are apt to let God be God and let God teach you while they support, encourage, warn, and guide you through your questions of your quest. But still, the Holy Spirit is the teacher and the one in you, not the witnesses.

The first judge of righteousness is the Holy Spirit, and the fruit you bear is the peaceable fruit of the good things that obedience to this guidance brings to bear in your persoanl life first hand and direct that your praise is always of God, and never of men for that which is brought about in your life.

If men, at any time subsequent to the baptism of the Spirit lead you contrary to the Holy Spirit's direction, then following the Holy Spirit is first and foremost and your only safe harbor. EVER.

If that is too deep and too steep, then works of benevolence is what you can control and do of and for and by yourself.

Your life will forever change, ONCE!

Otherwise, and as most choose, your own judgement will be your guide for your peace of mind.

That is open to all, and nothing is lost.

Remember, forgiveness is. Period. We have that power within us.

But the power of the Holy Spirit is not within us, and that can only come from God, and only through those that will not leave you stranded dangling in thwe wind like a TORN SHEET.

More often than not, it is not God refusing anyone, it is that there are no witness full of the Holy Spirit where one is being baptised.


God does not leave us to dangle without comfort and fellowship in right relationship with God.

Men do that, but not men of God.


This is only a very shallow insight into something extremely deep and not to be taken lightly, at all.

It is not a toy.

It is the mind that was in Jesus Christ being deposited into your person.

It is a very real and very serious life changing act of the will of God on ones behalf for Christ's sake and our own.

Again, it is not a toy.

It is the righteousness of God given us, versus our own righteousness.

I have no righteousness.

Jesus Christ is my righteousness.

That is the what is being offered in baptism and rebirth, spiritually ; the righteousness of God, in Jesus Christ manifesting itself in us.

peace.

ps. it is to whosoever will, God is no respecter of persons. None are better or worse, just come to Him with an open and contrite heart.

Find the saints for witnesses. We are salting the earth here and there. You will know when you enter a church where the Holy Spirit is present.

Find one. I don't care if you have to go to a hudred churches to find one, you will find one and you will know when you get there what is there.

He is, or he isn't there.

Drew,

Hello my friend,

That question is often posed to non-Christians by those Christians who believe that they are saved, according to their faith. Many times I have felt the energy of genuine concern or symathy in the expression. For that, I can be humble and grateful that there are those who truly do care about others.

According to the Christian faith, if one should indeed be wrong, and 'God' does condemn those who do not accept Jesus as their own personal Lord and Saviour prior to the time of judgement, then the answer is literally a matter of life or death.

An eternal hell is most often associated with the cost of being a non-believer.

Therefore, the question itself is intended to perpetuate the fear of 'God' that is also so common within the religion.

Personally, I choose to not live my life through fear...

I choose to live my life through goodness and good things, and my spirit within knows when the balance is there.

Humility and gratitude promote a spiritual wealth, with little or no fear attached.

The key, for me, was humility and a genuine desire to be the best man that I could be...



Proverbs and the writings of Paul were instrumental in the initial changes that constituted the beginnings of my own personal renaissance period.

Don Miguel Ruiz is also a remarkably enlightened author...

I suspect that you know this already, if not, it is well worth the research...

It is a vast and infinite universe and there are many mansions.

Plenty of room for everyone's heaven and a few dozen hells.

But all are most probably creations of the universal mind stuff and with a mere thought or belief, you will be able to come and go as you please.

What you do not believe you will not see. If you believe in the Christian heaven and you want to go there, I am quite certain that you will.

What ever God you worship I am quite certain you will find him or her. There is nothing to fear.

I am sure there are genuine creator gods and watchers of the game and rulers of the universes and angels and all of the other things you have heard about.

They are all as real as this reality you live in right this moment. Treasure your beliefs. They will take you to the next world, but always remember to love others as you love the God you worship.

I have learned so much in the time I have spent on this web site. Thank you all.

JB

I could be wrong.

I thought I was wrong once, but after I rechecked my figures I discovered I was mistaken.

Thanks to everyone who responded to this post. It was not set up nor did I set out to create an argument or a pointless debate. As I read the replies I could not help but think about what it must have been like to walk the earth and live in a time where ignorance ruled the day. There was a time when dogma made sense in that there were literally a thousand fears an hour to deal with. I can't imagine what it must have been like to not understand the night--the absence of the sun's light and warmth, to hope that it would once again rise.

I cannot imagine what it must have been like to not understand even basic science as it related to health. Imagine epilepsy a few thousand years ago. I don't blame the people in that time for thinking it was something of the devil, something indicating the most horrible type of spiritual corruption.

There was so much that back then was not understood and there is much we still don't understand. But while we have progressed in many ways (for example, most people today don't really believe we should kill someone who works on the Sabbath) a number of people still hold on to the idea that we will regress to a more barbaric form of justice once we perish.

I have no issues with such beliefs as people should be free and feel comfortable embracing beliefs that make sense to them even if they make absolutely no sense to me.

Still, I hold no personal arrogance. I consider myself a skeptic not an atheist. I don't hate God, I hate the infanticide approved of in a book handed down through the ages, propped up as a tome of moral instruction. I don't hate religion, I hate everything done, every metaphorical (and literal) black eye inflicted because someone dared to think in a way that today is accepted as basic and obvious.

Finally, I have absolutely nothing against hope or against faith. I am sure I would be miserable if I did not have hope or faith. I do have hope and I do believe in that which I can see, that which I can comprehend and that which stands up to logic and reason. The rest of it I'm willing to investigate and find a peace with.

And if I'm wrong, then as wouldee said--"come what may."

-Drew

Wow, awesome statement.

I guess the only way to get to heaven is to appease MorningSong.

I don’t know why you would suggest that God hasn’t already made himself known to me.

Have you ever thought that maybe you’re the one who has the wrong picture of God?

No, of course not. You wouldn’t dream of thinking that.

I know this. If God isn’t wiser, more intelligent, and more compassionate than me, then God wouldn’t be much of a God at all. In fact, that would mean that God is lesser than a human.

Clearly God needs to be wiser, more intelligent, and more compassionate than any human. That means that God had to have created a universe far greater that my wildest imagination.

Well, I can already imagine scenarios of universes created by non-judgmental Gods with no fallen angels who are at constant war with them. God’s who never screwed up their creations so bad that they had to dump water on them to drown out all be a handful of people to try to give it a second shot at it. God’s who were wise enough, and intelligent enough to figure out how to create universes were everyone wins!.

God’s who aren’t so stupid that they would need to created a hell and a place of eternal damnation that serves absolutely no purpose at all, not even for them. Why would any all-powerful, all-wise God create a place of eternal damnation if it didn’t serve them? Clearly such a creation would be forced upon the God, thus proving that it isn’t all-powerful and in total control of its own creation. The biblical story flies in the very face of an all-powerful God who is in complete control. The biblical God is actually quite inept according to the biblical stories.

As a feeble mere mortal man even I can imagine truly perfect worlds. And I can even imagine how this world can actually be perfect even when it doesn’t appear to be so perfect from a human point of view. I can’t step outside of my humanity and understand God’s point of view.

In short MorningSong, I’m far more intelligent, wise, and compassionate than the God depicted in the biblical stories. Therefore either those stories are wrong, or the mind of God has been surpassed by a mere mortal man.

I prefer to simply believe that the stories must be wrong.

God is far greater than the biblical stories claim.

Abra wrote


Now that's something I never considered. It seems you and JB have come up with a another possibility, yet another way to be wrong (or right). How may others might there be, and how much determines the righness or wrongness of any one theory (or religion).

I'm with Creative, I would rather keep fear as far away as possible. Fear serves to be a diversion to critical thinking and appropriate actions.