A lot of people reach these conclusions coming at it from various intuitive, as well as, logical reasoning. The thing that I find fascinating is that science is actually in agreement with these intuitive notions of the eastern mystics.

And here's the real catch,...

The western world (both Europe and the USA) were basically the ones to make these initial discoveries. Yet these were the same people who believed in an external God who created an earth and placed men upon it (or made them from dust).

Yet these were men who discovered both the Big Bang and Quantum Mechanics, which they had a very hard time believing! But the more they tried to reject these observations, the more tenacious the theories became.

Ironically it was the eastern world (the Buddhists, and other mystics) who saw what the western men were discovering and simply said, "We told you so".

They had already come to these conclusions via their spirituality. Not in the mathematical details, but in the intuitive ideas.

Quantum mechanics merely confirms what many pantheists already knew innately about our true essence.

Quantum Mechanics has a lot more to say than what I've posted thus far. In fact, everything I've posted thus far in this thread really only addressed the Big Bang (the topic of this thread) with a very slight excursion into how the universe most likely evolved beyond that. But there is much more to the theory than just these rudiments. Many books could be written on the subject, and have been!

Unfortunately, a lot of books have also been written on the topic that actually state incorrect things about Quantum Theory and they jump to unwarranted conclusions that the theory truly doesn't support. So that's sad. But that's the nature of the writings of men.

I will tell you that I do not have all the answers. By far!!!

I have enough answers to convince myself that Quantum Theory is consistent. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's correct. I would also suggest that I have enough answers to convince myself that other theories can't be correct because they have inconsistencies that can't be solved. Or, as in the case of String Theory, they offer nothing new.

String Theory actually operates on the assumption that quantum theory is correct anyway. It assumes most of the conclusions of quantum theory at its foundation, and doesn't add to it. The only thing that String Theory promises to do is to meld General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics into one theory. But it hasn't succeeded in actually doing that yet. It's really better called 'String Guess' rather than 'String Theory'. It only claims to show promise, but it hasn't delivered on any of its promises yet. String Theory may very well be completely wrong.

There are problems with our current mathematical formalism too that need to be addressed. Once those problems are properly solved then we may be able to make more headway just with Quantum Mechanics just the way it is. In fact, once the problems with mathematical formalism have been solved it may be possible that Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity might automatically meld together with no need for anything like String Theory. The real problem could be in the pure mathematics and not in the physics at all.

I know there is a problem with pure mathematics. Whether that's preventing Quantum Physics and General Relativity from being in mathematical harmony I can't really say at this time. But my guess is leaning toward the idea that it very well may be the only solution required.

I'm supposed to be writing on that book right now instead of posting here.

So I better go do that before I get in trouble with JB.

I was unaware of this thread and I am trying to read it all.

I will add my two cents when I get through it.

JB

I will admit I have not read carefully all of the posts in this thread although I find the subject fascinating; I have little patience for math or scientific theory and my eyes tend to glaze over as I hear some little voice inside telling me that although the process seems complicated, it is really quite simple.

The quoted statement above stands out to me as truth.

What is sound? It is vibration. It all started with vibration.

Light and sound is what the universe is made up of. Matter is simply sound (vibration and information) condensed (stored memory.)

So how does it appear that something came from nothing? I think that would depend on how you want to define "something."

Does a "thing" have to be classified as "matter" in order to be something? The answer is ..no.

My first conclusion was that NOTHING cannot "exist." It cannot exist because it is nothing. Very simple.

Once I accepted this idea, then what was left was "something."

I have no name for that "something" that would describe what it was without being picked apart to the barest meaning of a word. This "something" that exists has no name and there is no word to describe what its nature is. It has no form and no name.

It is something that has the potential to observe or perceive. Yet there is nothing to observe or perceive. So it is only aware of itself as an observer with nothing to observe. The vibration is born as the observer realizes itself. This vibration is the sound. It is THE WORD.

(In the beginning was the word.)

The rest of its reality comes into being from thought. The observer thinks or dreams and light comes into the picture.

The observer identifies with the light and the sound and becomes that because that is all there is to become. It divides itself up and each part of itself is exactly the same and each part also observes and dreams and expands.

This expansion is the big bang, and the observer becomes that. The time is NOW. The time is always Now. The light is energy and information and it condenses into matter.

The sound is the vibration of the observer observing and the light is the dream that arises from the thought and it holds information and memory.

Thoughts are things.

When you sleep at night and dream, you create your own world. It has light and sound and mountains, it has time and space.

Thats my simple point of view, non-scientific, non-mathematical non-provable. Just simple.

Of course there is a lot more to it than that, and the universe is run by all manner of intelligent beings who live outside of space-time worlds.

Sounds like fantasy I realize, but space-time worlds did not come into existence right away. They were the last things to come into existence, and they were designed for the incubation and development of life forms.

And the goal is a humanoid life form that can experience life, be self aware, love, and learn to create and expand the universe.

The human form is constantly being improved, and I believe the next creation you will find a human body that will be able to regrow a severed limb, and resist disease a lot better.

JB

That's really all the math is saying. It just gives the details of how the vibrations work and how they got started etc.

All the math comes from actual observations. It's not actually a 'theory', its more of a 'description' of what we actually observe the universe to be like.

You don't need to understand the details to know that it's true.

On the Observer and the Observed



Yes, the idea that the observer and the observed are the same things is an answer to the riddle.

The idea that there is an external creator that created this would is no answer at all. It just side-steps the riddle by assuming that there is some other thing than then has no explanation. It's no a solution to the riddle but an avoidance of facing the only answer that makes sense. Moreover there is no reason to invent an external creator. There is no evidence that points to it. If we base our understanding of reality solely on what we can know, then we must conclude that we are the universe observing itself. This is all that we can know. This doesn't eliminate other possibilities. It merely says that if other possibilities exist we have no observational reason to suspect them.

So this model of reality is for people who are only interested in what we actually observe the universe to be like. If we can trust that God wrote anything, we can trust that God wrote the universe. And that no man had his hand in the writing of it because it was written long before man ever even evolved.

On Fantasy and the Mundane



Fantasy and magic is nothing more than those things that we don't consider to be mundane. If we could actually do magic then we wouldn't view it as magic anymore. We'd view it as being mundane.

If you stop and think about it, our very existence is extremely magical. If we couldn't see, hear, smell, taste, feel and move around in 3-dimensional space, then all of those things would seem to be like magic to us, because we wouldn't be able to do them. But since we can do them we take them for granted as being mundane. Any magic that we can do is considered to be mundane because we take it for granted. But our very physical exist is magic and fantasy brought to life in the most grandiose ways imaginable.

So if the universe sounds like fantasy it's probably because it is! And besides, why should this picture seem any more incredulous than a picture that we are merely the pets of some external creator who is appeased by blood sacrifices and is at war with a demonic fallen angel. People seem to buy that story like as if they just went down to the hardware store and bought it like a sack of nails. That story is actually much more incredulous than the pantheistic picture that we are the universe observing itself.

To believe that an almost human-like entity (complete with human egotistical frailties, wants, needs and desires) was all alone and intelligently designed this universe with a master plan in mind. A plan that included being at war with a fallen angle and demanding blood sacrifices from men,.... well, seriously? Is that story any less incredulous or more incredulous? Personally I think it's much more the latter.

On the Expansion of the Big Bang



Well not only that, but people (even scientists) talk about the big bang as being an infinitely dense and infinitely hot incredibly tiny point. But according to the actual theory there is no need for it to be either infinitely dense, nor infinitely hot. Particles didn't have mass at that time. Mass itself is believed to be a function of the Higgs field which didn't condense out until after Alan Guth's Inflation took place. In fact, it was the non-condensed state of the Higgs field that caused the inflation in the first place (according to the theory).

It is also questionable about whether the Pauli Exclusion principle was actually in effect before inflation took place. The Pauli Exclusion principle basically states that two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time. Prior to inflation, if the Pauli Exclusion principle was not in effect for fermions then there would be no serious mass or compression problems. The universe didn't expand from pressure as we normally think of it. It expanded due to the latent energy of the Higgs field.

Note for Laymen

Ok, I realize this is all far too complex for most people to follow. But the point is that the universe didn't explode in the way that we normally think of explosions. The Big Bang wasn't actually a BANG at all. It was an inflation of an energy field called the "Higgs". Which later condensed out and gave particles the property we now call mass. The original early stages of the universe had no mass at all. That property simply didn't exist at that stage in the development of the universe.

That we can occupy a body that can see, hear, smell, taste and apparently move through apparent space is the magic.

Have you ever had a lucid dream? A lucid dream is dream where you are aware that you are having a dream and you are aware that the body you occupy is a creation of your own mind.

Once I found myself in a lucid dream walking down a road. I remember thinking, "this is a dream!"

Then I looked around at three dimensional space. I saw a sky, and I saw flowers next to the road and a tree nearby. I was amazed at the apparent living things that occupied my dream with me.

As I looked at these things in wonder, I thought to myself, "This is my world. I created it." It burst into color, more colorful than I had ever seen.

JB

I see no problem with either theories, vibrations or the quanum feild. i think JB is as correct as Abra, and i do undstand what all the post have stated - direcly or inderectly.

That said - i do believe that JB's comment on " all we have is now" time - to be the most significant thing as to our (or the universe's) true nature. As to theory's - I believe all that has been put forth so far, are really in agreement with each other, There is a sure core logical thread that connect's all discussed. No one's abosolutely right and for sure - no one's wrong. As ABRA states it - It all ties in most perfetly - at least for now Their is little to seperate the view's held,and a cosmos of agreement, it is just being stated in various individual way's, and to me - that's a good thing. If all the discussion forum's i've partaken of in my life were as good as this one - I would be forced to reconsider my view's of mankind as a whole But that's a post for another time.

i hope that the discussion continue's here ( still much to talk of and learn) But in case it doesn't - My highest reguard's to all here, your input has been gracious to say the least, " May the musical vibration's of the quantum field for now and forever be with you.)

I'm in absolute agreement with this. Jeanniebean has a remarkably innate intuitive nature about her.

Time cannot be an ever flowing river in which we are merely at a point. Implying that the past is actually 'back there' to go to, and the future is actually 'ahead of us' like as if it already exists. For one thing, if they future were already ahead of us then there would be no such thing as free will because the future would already be determined. It can't already be 'out there' in front of us if it hasn't yet been determined. And nether can the past be 'behind us' waiting for someone to build a time machine to go back and visit it. Those notions make great science fiction movies, but reality can't be like that.

What we think of as 'the past' is actually nothing more than a previous state of the 'now'. Although even the very word previous implies a temporal notion. But that's only because we can only think in terms of relativistic time (the time that we perceive within the manifestation of physical reality)

This notion of time has been addressed in a book called "About Time" by Paul Davies. He makes it clear that the concept of time that we experience and use in mathematical equations in physics, cannot be the only concept of time. He delves into this topic in some depth and shows that there must be another concept of time beyond that which we experience. And that concept of time is a permanent yet ever-changing 'now'. Eternity and 'now' are on in the same thing. This is why eternity has no end. It needs no beginning, nor an end because it is the beginning and the end all rolled into one. It is the alpha and the omega simultaneously. In other words, there is no concept of time for the 'now' because all time is 'now'.

Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity actually describes mathematical how the 'now' is dilated into the time that we experience. But that's getting back into mathematics again so let's not go there.

I agree that the 'now' is the all-important concept when it comes to thinking in terms of time or eternity.

See Paul Davies, "About Time".

One of my favorite kinds of movies to watch is anything about "time travel" or time displacements etc.

I have tried to imagine what existence might be like outside of space-time worlds. Without time as a measurement what would be used to measure processes? That is the question I have often pondered.

I believe the answer would be in the area of information. The amount of information gathered measures the process and growth of worlds outside of space-time. The growth does not grow through time, but grows through energy and information gathered by all points of observation and shared.

All information is shared and stored.

For an individual light being living outside of space-time, how are processes measured? They are measured by the amount of experience and information gathered by that particular being. This is what makes that being an individual in its own right. It carries its own information and its own experience and its own desires, opinions, aspirations and personage.

Within the body of that light being, processes are measured by experiences or events which are gathered in all manner of ways to include incarnations into all manner of worlds, material or not, and brought home and shared with all beings which are part of that being. (A light being is not simply a single entity but a family of entities all very closely connected, just as we imagine God to be a single being, all connected to all light beings.)

My higher self, being a light being, is made up of many other beings, which in turn are also divided into other beings. These beings are all observers and they hold valuable and specific information which is shared when ever accessed.

My physical body being has within it many other persons or points of observation in various stages of awareness and development with very specific information, different opinions etc.

Therefore I don't always agree with myself.

JB

Are there Gods?

Light beings create their own universes and take up residence there. Are they Gods? Yes, in their own right as they are the creators of that realm, but all Gods who claim to be the highest God only fool themselves and others, and even Gods sometimes are not privy to all information and do not know all things.

The universes are governed by countless creators and gods much like our governments handle all the things of our countries. Each galaxy has its rulers, and overseers and watchers and yes there are many power struggles going on everywhere, so the heavens are not necessarily a peaceful place.

Disclaimer: This is my conclusion and imagination at work as I have no direct knowledge of these things.

JB

JB - yes you do - you just have not expierienced it on this plane as of yet!!!! You talk of only a "smigen" of all there is to really know by personal expierience we all have not been able to personally expieriece as of yet. keep enjoying your life JB.

I have enjoyed this thread.

We have discussed the idea that the time is now and all exists now, which is true.

However, I believe that time travel is possible and has been accomplished.

Ever here of the Philadelphia experiment? I bought a paperback book years ago written about that and it did not claim to be fiction. It seemed very true. I believed every word. Since then, there were other books written and even movies made about that incident. I think the book I read back then was absolutely true. I think it was called "thin air" but it was a long time ago.

JB

Ive heard of it

Interesting thread Tribo. Haven't had a chance to get all the way through it but I am SURE I will have questions. ALWAYS do.

nite cherub

Abracadabra, what's your opinion on this article? Have you heard of this? Seems a bit far fetched to me, but I'm no physicist.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?CMP=ILC-mostview edbox&xml=/earth/2007/11/14/scisurf114.xml

[edited because I accidentally linked to a article about a bear being convicted of stealing honey. Replaced with correct link...]

As a mass of energy, it would make sense that the whole is intelligent. Look at the human organism, many different creatures working for their own separate end comprising a larger, nearly oblivious one.

As a mass of energy, it would make sense that the whole is intelligent. Look at the human organism, many different creatures working for their own separate end comprising a larger, nearly oblivious one.

i still have my question's on all of this but later on that, i will see if there are more post thnx for the input TM,

I once saw a documentary on television about bacteria. It was stated that if all forms of bacteria were removed from the human body we would die because the echo system of our body depends on this bacteria to survive. In fact it stated that our bodies were made up of bacteria.

The living things that make up our bodies either are good for the body, or bad for the body. Good bacteria and bad bacteria.

Our bodies are worlds (universes) being used the incubation and evolution of living things like bacteria.

eeeewwww!

And there are tiny bugs living in your eyelashes.

JB

thnx jellybean - i have now removed all my eyelashes and hair and outer skin- and it feels wonderful to be really clean - wanna go on a date - hahahahahahaha