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| Topic: the epiphany... | |
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This is a great post topic and question. Thanks first to the OP for asking the question without being harsh about it.
First, I am not an atheist. I cannot disprove the existence of "God" anymore than someone of faith can prove God's existence. But the proof always falls on the affirmation, not on the denial so I don't think it's my job to prove that God does or does not exist. The journey to the place I find myself today started when I was young. I was not brought up in a religious home. We did not attend church nor was there any evidence that my parents believed. At the same time, religion was never bashed or denied. It was just never brought up. At the age of 17 (or so) I joined a church purely out of my own personal interest. I instantly became involved in the music program, spent a lot of time in church and when not in church, around those with whom I shared a faith. At the time I believed I had both been "saved" and developed a personal relationship with Jesus. I prayed often, became a jerk (that is a shot at me, not at anyone else here) in that I started to take the "good news" everywhere--always wanting to share my faith. It did not work out well in that I just alienated everyone in my life. Several years passed and I started to question things. I took those sincere questions to my Pastor and to mature church members-- 1. Why is Christianity the "only" way? Church answer: The Bible says so. 2. Why would a loving God, a father, ever send a child to an eternal lake of fire for doubt or refusing to accept a "gift"? Church answer: Well, God cannot stand sin so He has no choice. 3. God says I am to love my enemies but God hates his enemies and in that I'm supposed to align my will with that of God's, which one of those things wins out? Church answer: Stop asking so many questions and just have faith. And I'm not being argumentative when I say at that point that things started to fall apart. I saw Baptists fight with Presbyterians, and with Methodists, and I saw Catholics fight with Protestants and everyone seem to fight with Jews save for the fact that Jews are God's people so don't fight with them too much. And that is not glib--I have friends of every faith--Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Agnostic, Humanist--it runs the table but I could not help but note how comfortable people were with a wink and a nod when it came to other faiths. So, I began to read, to research, to ask a ton of questions--to listen to the answers. And the more I did the less sure I became. I could not reconcile many of the things Christianity brought to the table with the world I saw around me. I still can't. I think one of the biggest misconceptions about those who do not subscribe to a faith is that we simply want to live our life full of self and selfishness--that we are just a group of people who don't care about others and want to behave poorly without consequence. I cannot express in words how wrong that line of thinking is. I don't think that way at all. I want to live a life where my choices to give and to be there for people is not predicated on a dogma. I want my choices to be decent and kind to people to be removed from a faith-based charitable obligation. I want to see people smile and laugh because it makes me happy to see such things and because I feel that from within. I can be selfish and arrogant but all of those to me are symptoms of the human condition and those things--in my opinion--are just as likely to occur in all people, regardless of faith. So, I continue to read and ask and listen and discuss. I think and love that I have a mind that is inclined to question and wonder. Sometimes I reach the end of my own limits (I don't have a world-class intellect by any means) and so I have to just let some things go. I haven't lost faith. I experience faith daily. I have faith in love and in friends. I have faith in the kindness I see every single day and I have faith in my place in this world. I am not without faith. I am simply without faith in dogma. I just woke up and this writing was rushed and choppy but I hope to some extent, it makes sense. -Drew |
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Drew.
Just my opinion, but I think you received the meat of the message and it really doesn't get any better than that. You received and treasure the best of it. peace   
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 05/07/08 08:35 AM
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After 35 years of avid study in the fields of archaeology, theology, philosophy, world religions, metaphysics, pre/ancient/revisionist history, astrology, and astronomy (in addition to performing in-depth analyses of all available versions of related religious texts, and taking part in many enlightening conversations with various clergy of different denominations, who happened to possess a rare penchant for the Truth), I remain a steadfast believer in a spiritual God, but not one defined by any religious dogma spawned by the contrivances of man. Lording, Wow Lording, I would sure like to download the contents of your brain... JB |
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OMG(pun intended)
What a nice friendly discussion. |
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My Path through Christianity to My current concept of God: I abandoned Christianity at a very early age when Sunday School teachers could not answer to my satisfaction my questions about why Joshua killed women and children at the battle of Jericho. The reason given, that they were “evil” and sinners did not make sense to me, especially when they continued to tell me that we were all “sinners.” This worrisome idea was patched up with the story, that those who accepted Jesus as their savior would be saved and would go to heaven. So naturally I said, “Hey count me in on that, where is this guy named Jesus?” Well , turns out he died a horrible death on the cross to save me from my sins and I felt very sad and guilty about all of that but there was not much I could do about it since I was only about six years old, and besides, I did not live back in those days, and I was not even born then. You can see how confusing this is to a small child. Then I became concerned that my parents were going to hell because they did not go church. I really did not fancy going to heaven without my parents. I asked my mom if she was saved and she wondered why I asked her that, and I told her that the people at church told me that if you were not saved you would be going to hell. I did not want her to go to hell and I was extremely upset. At this point my mother stopped forcing me to go to Sunday school, and I was thankful for that and I went back to my happy childhood life. And then of course the second and third grade gave way to the Santa Clause incident. I learned that the story of Santa Claus had all been an elaborate lie and I was shocked and horrified that my parents perpetrated these lies. I would have never believe that ridiculous story except that I did trust my parents to tell me the truth. They did not. I felt quite betrayed. That is when I realized that if my parents could lie to me about Santa Clause, then those Church people could very well be lying about Jesus. Even at that age I considered all the possibilities. I decided that I believed in God but I don’t think I liked him very much for killing all those people in Jericho. I did consider the idea that those stories in the Bible were not true, but I found it difficult to believe that grown-ups believed in all that stuff. So Jesus and the Biblical God was placed into the category of myth, the same as Santa Clause, and the existence of God became highly suspect. However I still knew there was something that needed to be addressed. Where did I come from, and how did I exist. How high was the sky, how big was the universe, how long is infinity, and where did all this stuff come from? So I made it my pledge to always ask these questions and evaluate the answers. To read everything and explore any possibilities, and to never be taken in by the stories of men, churches or any other so-called authority. My purpose was to not reject or accept anything, but to evaluate and consider everything until I found the answers. I thought I found the answer in the religion of light and sound, called Eckankar for a few years, but left that path when I felt the oppressive hand of a cult in the making. Later that group was exposed for the blatant lie it is. I was long gone from it by then, but many people who had spent years involved in it had their core belief system shattered to pieces by several books that were released about the scandals and lies involved with the movement. (The book to read on that would be “Confessions of a God seeker.”) But it was not that book or the abandonment of Eckankar that changed my core belief system and my concept of God. I read something that stated that God did not exist. Something about that statement rang true, but I did not know what it was. That shocked my core belief system and changed my concept of God as a being or personality and more of a consciousness expressing Itself in many things. The God that did not exist was the picture of a personality sitting on some throne in Heaven. The true picture of God was so different from that, that no mind could grasp a picture of it. At first I felt alone in this new view of God, and then I felt free, but with a feeling of lot more personal responsibility. It was a feeling of “We are all in this together.” Then I envisioned a host of personalities that were manifestations of God that all worked together in the creation of the universes. I imagine that these universes are run something like governments are run, with lots of personalities everywhere. That is my view of the universes and they all exist within this one great consciousness that is the heart, mind, and consciousness of God. That is the short version too. JB Did you know that the guy that started Eckankar was a Scientologist?
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 05/07/08 03:09 PM
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Did you know that the guy that started Eckankar was a Scientologist?flowerforyou Are you talking about Paul Twitchell? I don't know. Its possible. He was into just about everything. He was a bit of a con-man as it turns out. JB |
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Wed 05/07/08 04:58 PM
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Heres some of what I found about Twitchell and Scientology Did you know that the guy that started Eckankar was a Scientologist?flowerforyou Are you talking about Paul Twitchell? I don't know. Its possible. He was into just about everything. He was a bit of a con-man as it turns out. JB Twitchell married his second wife, Gail Atkinson, in San Francisco in 1964. Shortly afterwards, a 500-year-old Tibetan monk, Rebazar Tarzs, appeared to Twitchell and instructed him to move to San Diego. Twitchell was living in Point Loma in 1965 when he started teaching workshops and selling booklets on how to leave your body. On October 22, Twitchell claimed to receive 'The Rod of Power' from Rebazar Tarzs, becoming the 971st Living Eck Master. Eckankar, the Ancient Science of Soul Travel was officially founded. "For a year and a half or two years", says Lane, "it was a shoestring operation. He was advertising in Fate magazine, Orion magazine, Cosmic Star". In one article Lane shows me, Twitchell is reported to have piercing blue eyes, to sleep only four hours a night, to read 5,000 words a minute, to eat little, and to have 'the ability to be in all places at the same time'. Eckankar took off like wildfire, growing from three students to thousands in less than three years. Today it is perhaps the most successful religious movement to come out of the '60s, claiming a worldwide membership in the tens of thousands. http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/dodie.html |
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Drew. Just my opinion, but I think you received the meat of the message and it really doesn't get any better than that. You received and treasure the best of it. peace I did--and when being 18 and asking questions of people far smarter was met with...."Just have faith" that was not exactly confidence inspiring. But hey, I hung in there for more than three years--I wonder if if everyone who is certain of things has really looked at both sides? -Drew |
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Thu 05/08/08 07:03 AM
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Mysticism teaches that the dark side came from the Light side, and that the Light side is much stronger. But that the dark side was necessary in order for this creation to exist as it is. Those that belong to the Light side will always over come the darkness, no matter what. Yoda also teaches Luke that the dark side of the Force is not stronger than the Light or Good side. But that the dark side it is easier, quicker and more seductive. For example, it’s easier to get angry if someone insults you than to stay calm and be at peace with yourself. But how can we tell the difference between the Light side and the dark side? Yoda explained that you will know that you are on the 'good side' because you will be at peace with yourself, calm and passive. The opposite is true with the dark side: you won’t be at peace with yourself. You will be mentally agitated. Your thoughts will be dark and you will tend to be aggressive. Jedi belong to the Light/Good side with all their hearts and souls
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Drew. Just my opinion, but I think you received the meat of the message and it really doesn't get any better than that. You received and treasure the best of it. peace I did--and when being 18 and asking questions of people far smarter was met with...."Just have faith" that was not exactly confidence inspiring. But hey, I hung in there for more than three years--I wonder if if everyone who is certain of things has really looked at both sides? -Drew Yes, I am sure many have |
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I did--and when being 18 and asking questions of people far smarter was met with...."Just have faith" that was not exactly confidence inspiring. When I was that age and even much younger I was asking questions. And here’s what I observed,… My family was quite religious and a few of my uncles were even pastors. They would often be visiting in our home (not as preachers, but just as family visiting), and they would often bring other pastors with them, just because they were friends. Well, what would happen is that during normal conversations, philosophy and religious question would come up. And my mother would often say, “There you go Jimmy, here’s a chance to asks those questions you’re always struggling with”. So I would pose my questions to the pastors. Here’s what would happen. One of them would offer an explanation. A non-satisfying explanation I might add. Then another pastor would say, “I don’t see it like that, I see it like this,….” and he would offer his insight, and then another pastor would say, “Well, I’ve always thought of it this way,…” In essence they were all politely expressing wildly differnet views and explanations. Non of which I personally found compelling. However, what was crystal clear to me was that even pastors can’t seem to agree on these things. And these are all pastor of the same denomination of Christianity. I can just imagine getting a room full of pastor, priests and preachers from all different Christian denominations. It must be total chaos. If the clergy can’t even agree on what the answers are to these questions then it perfectly clear that no one has a sound answer that everyone can agree up on as being obviously correct. In other words, the scriptures are completely ambiguous, and it genuinely is a free-for-all to make them say whatever you’d like to believe they might mean. I can’t to the very real realization that if I was going to teach the Bible I would have to make up my own version of it. And to be perfectly honest about it, I couldn’t make up a version that was self-consistent. It was likely trying to cover a room with a carpet that it too small. Every time I’d pull it over to cover one corner another corner would be exposed as naked. I finally had no choice but to confess to myself that I cannot make this story consistent. And that’s an epiphany in itself. If I can’t teach it with confidence, then why should I believe it with confidence? I came to the realization that I can’t believe it because it can’t be made to make sense. So why pretend to believe it? Out of fear of making God angry? Out of fear that I’ll lose the gift of eternal life and be rejected by God? Why should I fear something that can’t even be made to make sense? I had to face the ultimate truth that it simply has not truth. The biblical picture of God is false. Clearly, if there is a God it is completely different from how the bible describes it. As I grew up I also realized how utterly silly it was to even consider that the Bible might have even be truth in the first place. Just look at how closely aligned it is with all the other mythologies of ancient times. Mythologies that just about everyone agrees are completely false. Why would the real creator of this universe just happen to be almost identical to all the other myths that were fabricated by the same cultures in that same regional place? To me that’s a dead give-a-way that the biblical picture is just another myth. No different from the other myths of the time at all really. Why would the real God turn out to be basically precisely the same as man's mythologies? |
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And that’s an epiphany in itself. If I can’t teach it with confidence, then why should I believe it with confidence? That is a good point. I had been an artist for 20 years painting pictures, when three friends of mine asked me to teach them how to paint. I realized that I did not precisely know what I was doing or how I was doing it. Up until then it was all trial and error, and hope it comes out alright. I struggled with color mixing and process. So I buckled down and learned the fine details of color mixing and the best process to proceed through painting a picture. Then I began to teach others. I learned more by preparing myself to teach than by doing it for 20 plus years. If I had not found a precise method I would have refused to teach others because I would have been teaching them my mistakes. The same thing applies with teaching a specific belief in something. What if you spent your entire life and even career teaching something that turned out to be a lie? I was glad I got out of Eckankar when I did. Other people were not so lucky and wasted many years teaching a lie. JB |
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Edited by
wouldee
on
Thu 05/08/08 09:26 AM
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Drew. Just my opinion, but I think you received the meat of the message and it really doesn't get any better than that. You received and treasure the best of it. peace I did--and when being 18 and asking questions of people far smarter was met with...."Just have faith" that was not exactly confidence inspiring. But hey, I hung in there for more than three years--I wonder if if everyone who is certain of things has really looked at both sides? -Drew I can't speak for everyone, as one would expect,but I have considered that as well. There is no fault on your part. Sincere lucid judgement is not a flaw, nor a shortcoming. It is prerequisite in the pursuit of truth. As a religous dogma, Christianity only goes so far as to express morality and ethical humanity. As a way of life, that life is in Christ. There exists a personal relationship with God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit that is prerequisite for Christisnity to be a way of life. That is between the individual and God to establish. It is , as a way of life, Christian in that it requires the mind of Christ be shared with the individual from God, and speaks to the truth in Christ. That is personal and real for each one so dwelling in the way of life that it is. There is a difference between a way of life and a doctrine. One is made effective through good works alone and through daily choices and the good sense to be a wholesome and better person and enjoy the rewards of living well, entirely based on one's choices and decisions which is inclusive all things, be they Christian doctrine and/or from any other source of contemplation one so chooses to embrace. Very wise on anyone's part to have found something good to live by that works. The other is a direct relationship with God that is peculiar and qualified in that it is incumbent upon it as being necessary to possess the Holy Spirit, to make it a way of life, and that, for Jesus' name sake not our own. One is the individual's righteousness. The other is the righteousness of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, whose ambassadors such become, speaking and living not of one's own, but of Christ Jesus' sake. Wherein the righteousness of the individual is not one's own ; oit is Christ's righteousness within. That is an etremely oversimplified comparison, but sufficient to draw upon for the distinction between the two. One knows clearly, within one's self, which is true for that individual. In either case, the individual knows where the individual stands. As a way of life, born again Christians are answerable to Jesus Christ for every word spoken in His name. Think about that. One so indwelt by the Holy Spirit ought to certainly take every breath in seriousness with grave deliberation if they speak for Jesus. To whom much is given, much is required, Drew. peace.
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Eckankar called itself "A way of Life" too.
The Atkins diet called itself "A way of life." I have heard that term a lot and I guess its true. "A way of Life" is simply the way you decide to live your life within a certain set of values. JB |
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Thu 05/08/08 09:57 AM
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Eckankar called itself "A way of Life" too. The Atkins diet called itself "A way of life." I have heard that term a lot and I guess its true. "A way of Life" is simply the way you decide to live your life within a certain set of values. JB Every religion is a way of life and has its own set of common values. Most of these values are the same in all religions. Most religions follow similiar patterns of development. Thats why im using the Jedi Church as an example. A person can take almost anything and make it a religion(i.e. way of life)if you know how.
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