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| Topic: The Iraqi Army | |
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Truth be known even over a 1000 soldiers refusing to fight shows our own stupidity in this whole deal. So for the sake of argument say it is 1000, so what?
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From Gen Patraeous's mouth on Nightline! They had him and Crocker on an interview last night for over an hour! Hmmm.. I can't find any reports on this either.. Anywhere. |
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Edited by
Jistme
on
Wed 04/09/08 01:15 PM
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Truth be known even over a 1000 soldiers refusing to fight shows our own stupidity in this whole deal. So for the sake of argument say it is 1000, so what? That is typical.. That would represent about 4% of the total. Which is pretty much average for any war. 10's of thousands would be better than 50%. I'm pretty sure if that was the case.. I'd be looking at a constant flow of news reports about it today. My point...again... Publishing disinformation to further a political point... Really does not serve a purpose. Both sides of this argument does it.. Starsailor too... and it is exactly why I am spending less and less time in this thread category. It is my opinion you guys spend 80% of your time and energy discussing fiction, as quoted from blogs and other unverifiable sources. |
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Edited by
Starsailor2851
on
Wed 04/09/08 01:15 PM
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Truth be known even over a 1000 soldiers refusing to fight shows our own stupidity in this whole deal. So for the sake of argument say it is 1000, so what? No wonder you usually only stick to copying and pasting stuff. |
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Edited by
Starsailor2851
on
Wed 04/09/08 01:20 PM
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I love how about five people in this topic believed what someone said when they didn't post a single source, a primary source or credible secondary source. That is really bad, shows just how much some people will believe ANYTHING they read.
Even if this ends up to be true, which I highly doubt, the fact there was no evidence posted in this topic to back it up, and how about five 'ENLIGHTENED' people fell in line is really saying something. |
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I love how about five people in this topic believed what someone said when they didn't post a single source, a primary source or credible secondary source. That is really bad, shows just how much some people will believe ANYTHING they read. Even if this ends up to be true, which I highly doubt, the fact there was no evidence posted in this topic to back it up, and how everyone fell in line is really saying something. Im looking sailor and cant find the interview, but I know what I heard otherwise I wouldnt have posted it! Ill keep looking! |
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He attributed the failure of the Iraqi campaign in Basra was due to this!
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I cant find more than partial segments of the interview. It lasted an hour. I'll look more later, but right now I need to get something to eat and try to complete two labs in Semi-conductors class!
I wont jump to any conclusions yet on why the whole interview isnt available. Maybe you've found the transcripts. I went to nightline and searched, but I cant find them. 
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To all the doubting Thomases out there.
I guess you should have watched the program. It was a National event Im sure! Wasnt a chance for a reporters mis-guided propoganda, it was one on one, straight from the General's mouth!
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Edited by
Starsailor2851
on
Wed 04/09/08 02:18 PM
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Fanta, you were wrong, just so you know. I did find the transcript through Lexus Nexus. Here is the segment and I shall link to the entire source. It is a loooong transcript, this section can be found a bit past the halfway mark if you scroll down.
Here is the segment: ------------- "TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) And those forces, General, did have some problems. One of the missions you've had in Iraq was partly in the process of standing up an Iraqi army and when you saw them go down to Basra and a thousand of them I guess not fight, they wanted to get out of the fight, that had to be disappointing. GENERAL DAVID PETRAEUS (COMMANDING GEN I think that's right. Out of tens of thousands it was. There's no question about it. TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) They deserted." - http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publisher/EndUser?Action=UserDisplayFullDocument&orgId=574&topicId=100007216&docId=l:772989377&start=1 --------------- Right there he said, that's right, out of tens of thousands that participated in the Basra operation, he admits to Terry Moran's question that ONE THOUSAND of the Iraqi forces deserted. Tens of thousands PARTICIPATED ONE THOUSAND deserted I can see how you got the info wrong though, it was a bit confusing especially since you only heard it, not read it. Though you really should have made sure you were correct before posting the information.. ------- "GENERAL DAVID PETRAEUS (COMMANDING GEN And one of the units was literally right out of their basic training in what's called unit set fielding." ------- Setting the record straight. |
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Edited by
Fanta46
on
Wed 04/09/08 02:23 PM
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This is an excerpt from an article printed April 4th.
That was early and Im sure the numbers were told to the reporter! Is the closest I can get right now and not violate site rule #7!!  The crisis created by the desertions and other problems with the Basra operation was serious enough that Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki hastily began funneling some 10,000 recruits from local Shiite tribes into his armed forces. That move has already generated anger among Sunni tribesmen whom Maliki has been much less eager to recruit despite their cooperation with the government in its fight against Sunni insurgents and criminal gangs. If only 1 thousand deserted, why did he funnel 10,000 from local armed militias???? http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/04/africa/04iraq.php Heck, they had officers in charge of whole battalions refuse to fight! |
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I found more information about the Basra retreat on the Power Line Forum. Here is an excerpt:
(Sen. John McCain asking questions of Gen. Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker) 'McCain – 1,000 troops and cops deserted in Basra, is that true and why? General – The troops were too rapidly deployed. Pulled from other obligations. McCain – The Sadr “cease fire”? General – It was a necessity for him. McCain – Is al Qaeda STILL a “major threat”? General – Not in any sense. Their presence has been mostly reduced. McCain – A “significant threat”? General – “Yes”. McCain – Who will take over for Americans? Crocker – The Iraqi people ARE stepping up. McCain – Gen. … do they militias remain a threat? General – Yes. To a much lesser degree. McCain – Wants to talk MORE about Iranian threat, but time is up.' For more on the Senate questioning of Gen. Petraeus and Amb. Crocker, go to: http://www.plnewsforum.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/31473/ |
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Iraq needs a fresh start...ala mushroom cloud  enlightened
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1000 or more soldiers refusing to fight against their own is still a point for thought. We were never asked by them to remove Saddam, we were never asked by them to democricize them, we have never been asked by them to help them fight each other. The point comes across even if it was one.
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If only 1 thousand deserted, why did he funnel 10,000 from local armed militias???? Ummm.. I don't know. Let's put a few moments of thought into why they might want to bring in large reinforcements.. ummmm ummm again... Oh.. I know. Maybe casualties? Maybe battle fatigue? Maybe to avoid getting their buts kicked? Heck, they had officers in charge of whole battalions refuse to fight! Actually.. The article you are quoting mentions one brigade commander.. A brigade is 4 to 500o men. A battalion is 500 to 1500 men. Just because a commander refuses to fight in the field.. Does not mean that everyone under him will leave too. I.e. another excerpt from that article. A senior military official in Basra asserted that some members of Colonel Khalaf’s unit fought even though he did not. Asked why he believed Colonel Khalaf did not fight, the official said that the colonel did not believe the Iraqi security forces would be able to protect him against threats to his life that he had received for his involvement in the assault. Another... But most of the deserters were not officers. The American military official said, “From what we understand, the bulk of these were from fairly fresh troops who had only just gotten out of basic training and were probably pushed into the fight too soon.” http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/world/middleeast/04iraq.html?pagewanted=print To all the doubting Thomases out there. I guess you should have watched the program. It was a National event Im sure! Wasnt a chance for a reporters mis-guided propoganda, it was one on one, straight from the General's mouth! I'm pretty well versed at finding things on the internet. If it could be found? I probably would have found it. Heck.. you would think someone other than you would have seen it! I'm also sure that if 10,000 troops walked off a battlefield, someone else other then General Petreaus would have noticed and we would be seeing report after report on it right now. The cease fire occurred on March 31st... That is about 8 and a half days too long, before we should have started hearing about it. If 1000 to 1500 walked away? That is roughly 4 percent. 1% lower then the highest estimate of US military who walked off the job in Vietnam. 2.3% lower then the highest percentage in World War II. Somebody somewhere has embellished. Or in the least...Severely misunderstood what they thought they heard. Either way? It is just another of many instances of disinformation I see here in the forums of JSH, from both aspects of any debate. |
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Edited by
Fanta46
on
Wed 04/09/08 11:23 PM
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Ok, I found my error! TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) And those forces, General, did have some problems. One of the missions you've had in Iraq was partly in the process of standing up an Iraqi army and when you saw them go down to Basra and a thousand of them I guess not fight, they wanted to get out of the fight, that had to be disappointing. GENERAL DAVID PETRAEUS (COMMANDING GEN I think that's right. Out of tens of thousands it was. There's no question about it. TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) They deserted. GENERAL DAVID PETRAEUS (COMMANDING GEN And one of the units was literally right out of their basic training in what's called unit set fielding. Again, it comes down to conditions setting. It comes down to making sure that before these individuals join the fight, if you will, that they have the kind of unity that's required to be able to stand in the face of some pretty heavily armed and in some in cases well-trained militia extremists Your right sailor
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So -giving the numbers credibility for the sake of argument here:
1,000 deserted out of 20,000 soldiers. In what would basically amount to a 'civil' type war, in which they are being asked to shoot what may be (remember - 'fog of battle') other Iraqis. Out of that thousand - *MIGHT* there have been any Sadr loyalists? Not unreasonable assumption. How many decided that the pay for getting killed today wasn't worth it? Reasonable Assumption there. How many just seen real bullets flying, the guy on right or left leaving, and they decided not to be a hero today? Reasonable assumption. Point being - is just about EVERY military unit sent to battle has seen this. Even U.S. military boot camp, which is an all volunteer force sees this type of 'wash-out' rates. Some military training cycles will see 50% and higher attrition rates AND THAT IS JUST TRAINING! Personal Opinion follows: I think the Iraqis are getting the taste for free life apart from Saddam, but it is going to take time. Ask any 'abusive relationship' counselor if the 'abused' walks away from the 'abuser' one day, and is perfectly right with the world the next. Just plain not reasonable, and doesn't happen. Well, now we have a whole country like that. Add to the mix other countries seeing the chance to seize power, or at least create disruptions for their particular sect. Add to this, a young wet behind the ears cleric who seen his chance to grab power, and has latch on like a bulldog to a rare steak. Right now, I believe the greatest threats to Iraqi's (the people not the country, although they are linked) peace and stability come from this Sadr-pup, and countries like Syria and Iran butting their noses in for sectarian rabble-rousing. Fanta and Sailor? Good debate - nice to see news articles and such used in the way they should be. |
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1000 or more soldiers refusing to fight against their own is still a point for thought. Yes, it is.. and certainly worthy of discussion. Yet not something we need to embellish or make bigger then it is, in truth. A little fact checking, maybe using some of the common sense that is inherent (or should be) sometimes is an appropriate measure, before hitting the 'post topic' button. Sure.. We all make innocent mistakes. Yet, I am left thinking that more often then not.. We observe more intended carelessness, then outright mistakes in here. |
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Edited by
Fanta46
on
Thu 04/10/08 02:59 PM
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1000 or more soldiers refusing to fight against their own is still a point for thought. Yes, it is.. and certainly worthy of discussion. Yet not something we need to embellish or make bigger then it is, in truth. A little fact checking, maybe using some of the common sense that is inherent (or should be) sometimes is an appropriate measure, before hitting the 'post topic' button. Sure.. We all make innocent mistakes. Yet, I am left thinking that more often then not.. We observe more intended carelessness, then outright mistakes in here. Ok I made a mistake. I admitted my fault, but it wasn't something one could check right away. It was "NEWS," It was fresh, and it was coming from the Gen in charge. (well I thought it was) I miss heard, but your right, perhaps I acted hastily. I'm big enough to admit my faults, but you have to admit that the numbers coming from the field probably aren't accurate either! 1000 could be press briefing talk for 5000! I made an error, I admitted it, now if we can lets move on! As Disaronno eluded to and I in my opening post, this is a civil war. (Thanks by the way for your comment)  (IMO more so than a hunt for Al Qaeda in Iraq!) I would still like to hear from the boots on the ground, what they and other US Soldiers think of the Iraqi Army. I would appreciate an average Joe's opinion, over an official one anytime! I still think the topic is a fresh one, doesn't involve trashing our own leaders, and the questions are good ones. I could have posted another endless attack on Bush, Clinton, Peterus, or Crocker, but I didn't! |
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Still no opinions from the boots on the ground about the Iraqi Army???
Interesting
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