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Community > Posts By > willowdraga
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Topic:
why do we lie?
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I think that once one understands how folk interact and the subsequent effects/affects it can have upon ourselves and/or our loved ones, especially in the continental US, it becomes clear that always being honest can be a vice rather than a virtue. Keep in mind that I do not believe in any form of cosmic retribution. We shun truthfulness in most of it's forms in reality but teach it as the right thing to do. Examples: Southern hospitality is not really hospitable in the sense that they are going to be nice as a sunny day to your face but you will be the scourge of the earth once you leave. I use this example because it covers both sexes and is considered the "way it is and should be". They flat out give you the impression of welcome like you are family but will complain and tell others every slight flaw they found in you, starting with the fact you accepted their help in the first place. Another example: You can take the idea of not hurting others feelings to almost any level to be untruthful. You don't want to cause a hardship so you don't tell your lover you haven't worked for 6 months...You cheated but don't want to hurt your lover so you don't tell them....Your sister is committing child abuse on a regular basis but you don't want to case more trouble so you don't tell her or the authorities what is really going on... The examples here are endless. By action we teach lying as acceptable but we teach it in concept as wrong. It is the easy road in the initial but the truth usually does come out. Proving all parties to be liars. Now, I am not sure of the vice of which you spoke but being shunned or feared for your honesty is very common especially among the people with a weaker constitution. *I am not speaking of those who are rude and claim it as honesty either. Those who are mean and angry and claim it is truth are not the example of an honest person. They are intentionally being harmful to others and getting by with it in the false name of truth and honesty. Lots of examples even here in these forums. These are people who have issues and push others around because of them in the name of truth.* Whole nuther thread for that discussion. 
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Topic:
"15 Lies of Liberalism"
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Since certain language is being used, and since you've now more or less issued a challenge for a 'liberal' to argue with conservatives without resorting to ad hominem type fallacies, allow me to gladly accept that challenge. I mean, I've read through the thread and have been rather unimpressed. So let's get started, shall we Dodo? 
To begin, I must ask: Where IS the argument in the OP that you would like for me to counter? Nothing looks like what an argument is supposed to look like. To quite the contrary, it all looks like fallacy on parade. If need be we could go through all of them one at a time. So, once again... Where has an argument been given here? 
Can you offer a rebuttal to the claims that conservative blogger John Hawkins made? I already critiqued his claims, and I didn't support everything that he said. All fifteen are unjustified. All are gross overgeneralizations. And as I was hinting at, since you're talking in academic/formal terms here, there is nothing that warrants a "rebuttal", for they are all gratuitous assertions. In other words, nothing stated has been argued for. The burden of proof lies on the shoulders of s/he who is making statements about the world. He needs to show how he's arrived at these 'conclusions'. He needs to provide some sort of argument. Hi, Creative  Good to see you.
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Topic:
"15 Lies of Liberalism"
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I started this thread in part to see if liberals could argue with conservatives without resorting to the use of ad hominem. Sadly, I discovered that ad hominem is the rhetorical weapon of choice of some people. Except that isn't what happened. Truthful, honest, straight to the point answers were given. You choose to call them whatever you want....doesn't make them less true or honest or disproving of the garbage. In truth it is a waste of any intelligent mind to even have to read the garbage offered on this OP as something of value. I did lower my mind and morals to answer it. So I should be thanked for that much trouble. |
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Again the second amendment is not a guarantee of a gun unless you are in a regulated militia so....
And it doesn't say we can't stop people from having weapons at all. So we are gonna regulate weapons and eliminate those who we decide are unfit to have the weapons. We as in the majority of Americans who do not want their children mowed down in class. It is happening. And because of the failure of the conservatives in this country to grow and change with the times, they will be the minority and less soon. It is only obvious and logical. |
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And still gun hugging and forsaking the children...
H |
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I did see the amended version and they were still heckling because the second amendment is not a reason for someone to have an assault weapon.
In light of his loss even bringing up anything would have been heckling so yea it was heckling. |
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Even the second amendment doesn't guarantee the right to an assault weapon or any weapon actually outside of the regulated militia....
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Ignorance is hugging your gun and forsaking the child.... As this thread a few others prove over and over... |
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Topic:
"15 Lies of Liberalism"
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Perhaps I should set an example by critiquing some of the arguments being made by John Hawkins. 1) ...it's all about choice -- unless you want to choose which gun or lightbulb to use, which school your child will attend, or you’d prefer more freedom and smaller government.
In #1, Hawkins uses a bit of a straw-man argument. There is a case to be made for Congress limiting the sale of certain weapons. For example, Congress has limited the sale of machine guns. Also, liberals have expressed the desire for homosexuals to have "more freedom" to marry whomever they want. Where Hawkins is correct is the part about which school that your child attends. Liberals have worked to prevent the creation and use of school vouchers, which would enable parents to have better choices of which schools that their children attend. Vouchers would be of great help to parents who are too poor to send their children to private schools. 2) ...it cares about the environment, when in practice, not only do liberals like Al Gore live some of the most resource-wasting and ostentatious lifestyles on the planet, but they hurt the environment by blocking environmentally friendly energy production here in favor of energy sources from nations that care little about pollution.
In #2, Hawkins makes a rather weak argument. Sure, Al Gore acts like a hypocrite when it comes to environmental conservation, but I would not judge all liberals by his actions alone. Hawkins simply doesn't prove his point. 3) ...you can have lots of free government services and somebody else will pay for them. The trillion dollar deficit we're running every year that will have to be paid back says otherwise. . .
Hawkins needs to specify what he means by "free government services". If he is worried about the federal deficit, then he needs to admit that conservatives in the U.S. government have contributed to the creation of that deficit. Pork spending isn't exclusively a liberal thing. 6) ...it's all about compassion and taking care of the less fortunate, unless liberals have their own money on the line, in which case they give less to charity than those stingy, greedy, heartless conservatives. . .
In #6, Hawkins nails it. In the USA, conservatives as a group give more of their money to private charities than do liberals as a group. Here is a chart that the Chronicle of Philanthropy published prior to last year's U.S. presidential election: 
13) ...liberals are the only people who care about black Americans and want to help, which doesn't seem to square with the fact that just about anywhere and everywhere liberals have been in charge for decades, like Detroit or New Orleans, most black Americans are in dire straits. . .
Like it or not, Hawkins does have a point. Some of the most liberal places in the USA are also places with the most severe fiscal problems, and those fiscal problems are harmful to minorities. For example, the state of Illinois is the state with the worst bond rating. Also, the states with the current highest unemployment rates are Nevada and Rhode Island (tied at 10.2%), and Barack Obama won in both states twice. High unemployment rates are also harmful to minorities. 15) ...you can fix crime by taking away guns, but by definition, the people who will voluntarily give up guns are law abiding citizens who have no intention of committing a crime in the first place. Besides, if that can work, why doesn't Barack Obama set the example by asking his Secret Service agents to disarm?
Again, Hawkins has a point, but he jumps the shark with comment about the U.S. Secret Service. I don't know of any liberals in the USA who advocate taking guns away from law enforcement officers. So, you see, I did not have to resort to using ad hominem in order to critique the arguments made by John Hawkins. You mean it was not easier to just call it bullshyte like it is??? Bullshyte takes a lot less typing and fits this crap so well. |
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Edited by
willowdraga
on
Thu 01/31/13 06:02 PM
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It is ok Motown, you are welcome to repeat.
It is true, just as JBK said, they need to see what they do. The gun mongers need to see what they do with their sick ideology to the six year olds in a class room. This shooter is a direct result of their sick ideology. These dead children are a direct result of their ideology. They are right that guns are not the major part of the problem, it is their ideologue and their false crazy gun power that causes this problem. |
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Ignorance is hugging your gun and forsaking the child.... As this thread a few others prove over and over... |
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Again still nothing that is not a gun hugging, f*k the children ideology. And crazy too in some instances....
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Topic:
"15 Lies of Liberalism"
Edited by
willowdraga
on
Thu 01/31/13 05:16 PM
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Not a lie....just because you don't want or are incapable of seeing the truth of it. The spewing of ad hominem isn't an exercise in telling the truth. Instead, it is a tool of last resort used by someone who can't make a good counter-argument. By the way, I didn't say that I agree with everything that John Hawkins wrote. My counter argument which it really isn't an argument to speak the truth of the matter but I will allow you that if you think you need it for your own mind to feel better... There isn't really an argument that holds water on the other side of the truths I speak of. It is a bunch of already dismissed garbage. Dismissed over and over again.... To a point of complete disbelief in the amount of gun hugging that really goes on... You have yet to make any real counter-argument to whatever John Hawkins said. Instead, you launched into an ad hominem attack, which you keep perpetuating. Hawkins makes 15 arguments against liberals, some of which I quote in the OP. If you agree or disagree with them, then explain why. It is hard to argue with the lies in the list because they are just not true. But to make you feel better I will try to discount them all. Hold on....let me go get and bring them back here.... What a garbage site to get any kind of valuable info from to start with.... 
1) ...it's all about choice -- unless you want to choose which gun or lightbulb to use, which school your child will attend, or you’d prefer more freedom and smaller government. Garbage. The only thing this validates at all is the corporate wish for less regulation so they can poison us faster than they do now. 2) ...it cares about the environment, when in practice, not only do liberals like Al Gore live some of the most resource-wasting and ostentatious lifestyles on the planet, but they hurt the environment by blocking environmentally friendly energy production here in favor of energy sources from nations that care little about pollution. This is just garbage. 3) ...you can have lots of free government services and somebody else will pay for them. The trillion dollar deficit we're running every year that will have to be paid back says otherwise. Liberals gladly pay for the services they want through their taxes and their charitable work. So this is just untrue. 4) ...as long as you use birth control that someone else is forced to pay for, there are no consequences whatsoever to having lots and lots of sex. Meanwhile, more than 50 million children have been killed by their own mothers via abortion and 1 out of every 4 adults in New York City has herpes.  More garbage of untruths.....
5) .... "government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn." Do you know anyone with crabgrass on his lawn? DO YOU? No one says this that I know of on either side....
6) ...it's all about compassion and taking care of the less fortunate, unless liberals have their own money on the line, in which case they give less to charity than those stingy, greedy, heartless conservatives. This isn't true at all either.... 7) ...you shouldn't take your Christian faith seriously, that political correctness matters more than the Bible, and that mocking God has no consequences. Ever heard someone say, “Don't pick fights with people who buy ink by the barrel?” Well, if liberals were smarter, they wouldn't be picking a fight with an omnipotent God who buys lightning bolts by the barrel and has a well earned reputation for getting fed up every once in awhile and dishing out "Old Testament style wrath" on His enemies. That is just stupid. Liberals couldn't care less about others religion as long as it is not a part of the government. Separation of church and state. 8) ...how much our country spends can be dictated by our wants, as opposed to what we can afford. Of course, if the world really works this way, Greece would be fine, nobody would have ever heard of the word "bankruptcy," and the banks wouldn't even bother to write down your name when you borrow money from them. The government has been run well by Clinton for one but he didn't face an emergency in the country so this is still garbage..... 9) ...liberals want unity and bipartisanship, which they apparently believe they can accomplish by spewing pure hatred and smearing, demonizing, threatening, and lying about anyone who disagrees with them. Calling a spade a spade is not spewing hatred. Their are lots of bigots and bigoted action done in the name of conservative beliefs against women, gays, non whites, non citizens, etc... So they bring that on themselves, those who do it. 10) ...it’s going to deliver equality of outcomes for everyone, which is true, if by "delivering equality of outcomes" you mean "make everyone poorer." Untrue....
11) ...it cares about women -- unless they're conservative women, in which case liberals will insult them in the vilest of terms, attack their children, call them whores and laugh and hoot at the most grotesque sexist attacks against them. Every last insult ever hurled at someone like Sandra Fluke probably wouldn't amount to what women like Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, Michelle Malkin, and Ann Coulter put up with on any given week with the full support of the same liberals who run off at the mouth about a "war on women." Some women just like some men bring this type of action to themselves by what they do to others. I don't agree it is right though but I do understand how it happens. They spew some pretty terrible things themselves to bring it back to themselves. 12) ....it'll help the poor -- and it does. Liberalism helps poor Americans live in ghettos with just enough food and money to survive so they can stay dependent on liberals. It's the same sort of help a farmer gives a chicken while he harvests its eggs and waits for the right time to wring its neck and toss it in the frying pan. Which the conservative alternative is to let them die. I guess the liberal help is worse than that. 13) ...liberals are the only people who care about black Americans and want to help, which doesn't seem to square with the fact that just about anywhere and everywhere liberals have been in charge for decades, like Detroit or New Orleans, most black Americans are in dire straits. Racist remarks coming from the conservative side are undisputable. Sorry they brought that to themselves also. And not true 14) ...small business owners were able to build their businesses because they were lucky. But of course, if that's true, why do we have such a high unemployment rate? Why doesn't everyone who loses his job just set up his business and grab that easy money? Since bankers don't deserve the big salaries they make, why doesn't the Occupy movement set up its own bank and show the "banksters" how it's done? Not one thought but several opinions lumped into one non sensical remark of no value. 15) ...you can fix crime by taking away guns, but by definition, the people who will voluntarily give up guns are law abiding citizens who have no intention of committing a crime in the first place. Besides, if that can work, why doesn't Barack Obama set the example by asking his Secret Service agents to disarm? Those guns surrounding the president won't protect him either just like they didn't JFK or Reagan, etc... It is an intimidation move that has been used all along but it really never protects these officials now does it? So it was all untrue and unbased and garbage, just as I said. I lost a few IQ points reading it.... 
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Topic:
Personal filters...
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I believe all one can do is try to express and explain in different ways and have patience that eventually they'll grasp what you mean and how you think. That may only go so far though, and sometimes its best to go your separate ways if the other person is unwilling or unable to open their mind to something outside of their experience or beliefs. It can be maddening... I know all too well. I've had to cut ties more often than not due to the closed minded nature of certain individuals or the hardened assumptions and beliefs you're trying to say something between the lines. There are many people with hidden agendas and I understand it, but sometimes you just gotta let people do bad by themselves, or if you're lucky, agree to disagree and stay away from tough subjects. It is a struggle... One of the hardest decisions in life is to try harder or let it go, eh? |
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The man had a gun so he is a threat. He will be treated as a threat until the cop can determine otherwise. So it is how it should be. |
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Topic:
Personal filters...
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I have a male friend who we couldn't get our minds on the same page to save our lives. It is so frustrating at times.
We are still friends but we do understand that we think differently. One issue is that he has expects women to not say what they mean so that when I say something he is looking for the "hint" underlying meaning, etc... There is none. I am the bluntest, straighforward person I know. lol |
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The man had a gun so he is a threat.
He will be treated as a threat until the cop can determine otherwise. So it is how it should be. |
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All the twisted stats still do not disprove that there are far too many innocents who die in the name of "people using guns to protect themselves" which more innocents die than are ever protected by these guns.
No stats disprove that because ......wait for it.....there are none to disprove it because....the truth is you are more likely to be shot by your dad with the gun he has to "protect you" in a murder suicide than you are to be protected by it. |
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Topic:
"15 Lies of Liberalism"
Edited by
willowdraga
on
Thu 01/31/13 03:52 PM
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Not a lie....just because you don't want or are incapable of seeing the truth of it. The spewing of ad hominem isn't an exercise in telling the truth. Instead, it is a tool of last resort used by someone who can't make a good counter-argument. By the way, I didn't say that I agree with everything that John Hawkins wrote. My counter argument which it really isn't an argument to speak the truth of the matter but I will allow you that if you think you need it for your own mind to feel better... There isn't really an argument that holds water on the other side of the truths I speak of. It is a bunch of already dismissed garbage. Dismissed over and over again.... To a point of complete disbelief in the amount of gun hugging that really goes on... |
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Topic:
"15 Lies of Liberalism"
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Not a lie....just because you don't want or are incapable of seeing the truth of it. something you know about, huh... I sure do, it is like talking to a box of rocks half the time.... 
man, don't i know it... They will learn it though eventually, I just keep trying to help it along.... |
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