I understand that the deaf cannot hear.
He who has ears let him listen.
He who has eyes, let him see.

You concept is insane!
do you not see the flaws in it?
its alll goood if you make assumptions like THAT but you have to be REALISTIC - which you are not.

If you believe in scripture, than you believe in the Flood and if you believe in the flood there is enough evidence there to provoke re-thinking of evolution as Gods way of creation.

(my emphasis in bold)
every real Christian believes the same.
if they didnt, they wouldnt be Christian
And to boot, THAT isnt fundamentalism!
Christian fundamentalism is insane statements such as


"Men are not allowed to have long hair!"

"Women arent allowed to wear pants!"

"You MUST be baptised to be saved!!!"


and like I said before, if anyone from any religion writes ANYTHING that is counter-theory of evolution - you all will scream and shout:

"ahhh! hidden religious agenda!! fundamentalist!!!"

whereas if the SAME writings were made by one that wasnt religious he would just be

"wrong."

So in your concept you're assuming that the mice were able to evolve to rondent form without being attacked ever and only when they were WARM BLOODED ANIMALS did the mutation of blood clotting form?

Im no scientist either but I think I beat your personal-best of 15 seconds there.

and about the Jesus thing;

You had a post which stated :"Im waiting for my apology"
in which my reply included debunking your half-assed attempt at debunking Jesus.

THEN, after you saw this, you wen back and edited you post to a


and proceeded to hide from the fact that your claim was obliterated.

You're right, I just might go over and re-open that thread so that everyone can see.

Abra, Abra, Abra....You are the only one here that is referring to evolution as a religion!
I said it requires MASSIVE FAITH.
If it were a religion, who is its God?



What if there are consequences Abra?
You have two options Abra, either you live a life thinking that there are no consequences and then you die, finding out either 1) nothing because you're dead and thats that. or 2) you're dead and.... uh-oh consequences.

OR

You live a life believing that there are consequences and honestly try to live righteously by Jesus; you die and either : 1) nothing, because you're dead and thats that. or 2) you're dead and you are rewarded.

I think the SCARIEST thing in the world is being atheist on a death bed, moments from passing .....
"WHATS ON THE OTHER SIDE?
AM I GOING TO SEE ANYTHING?
DO I WANT TO SEE ANYTHING?
WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO ME?
WHAT IF I WAS WRONG?"


I dont live in fear of consequences Abra.
That is misconception of TRUE Christianity.

What keep me "in line" is that I know by experience that by living by Gods Word - the Bible - I am rewarded now, tomorrow and forever.


Dont worry Abra, I do what I do because I know that it is right and I dont do what it says I should not do because I understand why it is wrong to do it -not because of 'consequences'.
eg: the bible says dont be a drunkard.
why?
because the context in which it says that (galations) is because its talking about living in the flesh (giving in to temptation) and living in Spirit.
It says 'dont be a drunkard' because when you're drunk, you lose self control and hence are MORE likely to do some you'll regret.

The whole point of it is NOT what you MIGHT do if drunk, but it says

"I know that if I get drunk, I will lose some self control and be more likely to sin"

So in other words; to GOD you are WILLINGLY SUBJECTING your self to a situation where you will sin.



God knows the heart, I dont believe God rewards those that do things because they want rewards; 'man who thinks himself to be something deceives himself', God rewards those for resisting sin that comes from the heart that loves Jesus; If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

That goes for good deeds too; if it is done because one seeks a reward: it is not done from a righteous heart.



I believe so too; God is fair and it would not be fair of Him to condemn a man/civilization that had never heard of him before.

its a case of mens rea.

But you have heard.
But ultimately, no-one on this earth can judge the fate of someone. That is Gods job.



wow, you have no idea what Christianity is!
Gods Judgment isnt JUST based on how people judge each other.
By your understanding of Christianity, it seems that you believe that you can be a murderer a liar etc..but if you didnt JUDGE others, you are scot-free??

Are you saying that you have never judged?
That will be a lie.

God is the ultimate and fair judge; that is why he says "Vengeance is MINE", because He will take level of judgment someone used in the life to judge their ENTIRE life.
That is, if you've never asked for forgiveness for your judging ways.



I never said evolution is attractive to me
you are quoting me out of context - on purpose? I dont know, I get the feeling from the way you reply that you are actually emotionally affected by my rebuttals and hence misunderstand what I say.

My context in the statement was towards people that are "on the fence" in terms of what they believe - they see all these religions with "rules" etc and what they cant/shouldnt do ...then they see the theory of evolution - which can make sense (esp. if you are naive to what it entails) and they jump to it because there are no "rules".

its attractive.



But I want to see you and many others when I get to the other side.

Thats what Christians* want.


*real ones

(my emphasis)
So basically what your saying is that the chances of evolution are more probable than me winning the Lotta Jackpot in every single country , every week, for the rest of my life.
See how much faith is required to believe in this?


(my emphasis)


I cant believe what Im reading here!
Evolution is the idea that we started out simple and got more and more complex (by "advantageous mutations"), yet here we have a contradiction?


Once I was told that genetic inheritances are mutations of evolution.....so in other words MALE PATTERN BALDNESS is evolution.

To claim that antibiotic resistance is evolution is utterly insane as that statement.



You've missed the target here. My statement there is taken from Bone of Contention, is evolution true? -by Sylvia Baker M.Sc-
and besides this, you've failed to the complexity of the eyes function in relation to HOW this could have formed by evolution.




Massive, massive faith!
and again the chances of "randomness" in hand with appropriate "situations"....you dont need to be a statistician to see the improbability of something developing an amazing system like blood clotting.

"Preexisting genetic variation" - how could it be preexisting?
are you suggesting that it never needed to evolve to get to this genetic variation? it just WAS, since whenever?



With uranium dating you have to make assumptions where there are NO grounds to suppose such a thing!
If you found a rock that was 6.25% uranium and the rest lead, the age you conclude to is totally dependent on your assumptions!

How do you know that the rock had NO lead initially?

it is said that uraniums halflife is 4500 millions and we know that uranium decays through various steps until it forms lead.

fact is that lead can be lost from the rock in other ways besides radioactive decay
Uranium is often in a form that is readily soluble in weak acid. Tests have shown that up to 90% of the total radioactive elements in some granites could be removed fro the surface by leaching the rock with weak acid.

One test in colorado used a dating method which concluded the age of the rock was 725 millions years old.
Later it was realised that 95% of the lead in the rock had probably been there from the start!

it was TOO high by oh what? 700 miiiiillion years!?

Another study in Sweden concluded ages 380mil years, 440mil years and 800mil years!
Therefore, the specimen tested according to these figures is anywhere between 380 and 800mil years old.

Then you have K/Ar dating which has its own problems.

Meanwhile, if you look at the earths magnetic field, meteoritic dust, atmospheric helium, salt in the sea as well as evidence pointing towards Noahs flood; all point an age of the earth which unfortunately to evolutionists, is too short a lifespan to accommodate evolution!

Just Flood evidence ALONE is astounding.

No I dont believe that, purely because of contradictions there are between faiths.
How can the God of Christianity say "love your neighbou & turn the other cheek" where the God of Islam instructs to slay all infidels if they dont convert??
Theres even more examples in the book; The Divinity Code. (a counter to Dawkins God Delusion


Without a doubt yes.



We are not perfect. We are all sinners.

We all deserve to go to hell.
even mother Teresa
even pope john paul 2 (even though the catholic church used to claim that the pope was infallible [incapable of error])

But the thing is, 2000 years ago +/-, Jesus took the burden of all mankinds sin - so that we MAY be saved -.

The concept of salvation is not something that can be explained in a forum post!
I have a short ebook that nails the subject if anyone is interested!

From an email...

Why is it that people say they "slept like a baby" when babies wake up every two hours?

Why do we press harder on a remote control when we know the batteries are flat?

Why do banks charge a fee on "insufficient funds" when they know there is not enough?

Why does someone believe you when you say there are four billion stars, but check when you say the paint is wet?

Why do they use sterilized needles for death by lethal injection?

Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard?

Why does Superman stop bullets with his chest, but ducks when you throw a revolver at him?

Why do Kamikaze pilots wear helmets?

Whose idea was it to put an "S" in the word "lisp"?

What is the speed of darkness?

If the temperature is zero outside today and it's going to be twice as cold tomorrow, how cold will it be?

If it's true that we are here to help others, what are the others doing here?

Do married people live longer than single ones or does it only seem longer?

Do you cry under water?

How is it that we put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage?

Why do people pay to go up tall buildings and then put money in binoculars to look at things on the ground?

Did you ever stop and wonder......

Who was the first person to look at a cow and say, "I think I'll squeeze
these pink dangly things here, and drink whatever comes out?"

Who was the first person to say, "See that chicken there... I'm gonna eat the next thing that comes outta it's bum."

Why do toasters always have a setting so high that could burn the toast to a horrible crisp, which no decent human being would eat?

Why is there a light in the fridge and not in the freezer?

Why do people point to their wrist when asking for the time, but don't point to their bum when they ask where the bathroom is?

Why does Goofy stand erect while Pluto remains on all fours? They're both dogs!

If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests?

If corn oil is made from corn, and vegetable oil is made from vegetables, then what is baby oil made from?

If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons ?

Why do the Alphabet song and Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star have the same tune?

Stop singing and read on . . . . . . . . .

Do illiterate people get the full effect of Alphabet Soup?

Did you ever notice that when you blow in a dog's face, he gets mad at
you, but when you take him on a car ride, he sticks his head out the window?

Does pushing the elevator button more than once make it arrive faster?

Do you ever wonder why you gave me your e-mail address in the first place?

no.

I didn't need it cause you finally came to your senses.


LOL!!!!!!!
So you wont even admit your error?
not to mention trying to cover up the bs with that last line!


What error are you talking about this time? You haven't found one yet.



Oh, only the post where you said "Im waiting for my apology" where I followed up and debunked your pitiful attempt to debunk Christ is all!

Post the link to that review. I want to judge it source since we are talking about bias and unbiased.
There is a negative review for every book; question is how many people see this book as being nothing less than fantastic.

Just the "Every single point in the book is easily refuted by anyone having any familiarity with the concept of evolution." part proves that whoever "reviewed" it is talking out their arse!
Do you really think someone with "any familiarity with the concept of evolution." will be able to refute the flaws of radiation dating?
How can someone with any familiarity be able to refute the eye problem?

THIS is SOLID GOLD material right here:


oh no, they're not problems at all. noooo. it only shows how evolution is IMPOSSIBLE since the influence to mutate (in terms of blood clotting) would kill the animal before it got a chance pass that infomation on.

I find it facinating how you miss this!

Its JUST as bad as if you found some "lost" script of the bible that said: "this is a fairytale story about a superman named Jesus..."; showed it to ME and then I reply:

"that isnt problematic."
You definitely are a lost cause Abra.



You wouldnt know fundamentalist if they told you "CONVERT OR DIE INFIDEL!!"



So why not have a read of Michael Behe's Darwins Black Box?
Or are you gonna jump on Amazon book reviews and go straaaaight to the One star* review to find your comfort zone again?



No, delusional is believing in a concept that has no evidence that ISNT based on speculation.
Sure, Science is about truth, but as soon as someone says the words "God" everyone gets upset and defends.
Just like here.



What have morals got to do with this?
lmao yet again Abra you're letting your emotions throw you.

I never said SCIENTISTS "made up evolution"
and IM delusional you say?

Scientists did not come up with evolution Abra, the concept goes way back before Darwin.
It first came from the Greeks: they taught that men cam from fish, the Empedocles claimed animals came from plants.
And then we had spontaneous generation.

The whole idea of evolution is attractive because it will then mean that there are no consequences for what one does!

I never stated that it was some sort of conspiracy!
that was your delusion of my statement.


The more I read Abra the more I believe you are delusional.


Of course it is isnt it Abra?
Because that would turn your map of reality upside down wouldnt it?
Scary!



There is never an argument where someone resorts to "its bias! its bias!"
When they dont get their way.

If a Islamic extremest believed in evolution and wrote a thesis on it; you wont believe it because he's got "a hidden agenda!"



That is down right pathetic man.
If a Christian man debunked evolution, you would deny it with the same excuse "hidden agenda".



Jeez Abra, not only do you and I NOT have the capacity to understand somrthing that has "always been" but you dont even have the ability to understand this sentence.

I cannot help you further.

Why should anyone in their right mind go through any of that if evolution theory is bust just on blood clotting and the eye?
not even to mention the non-existent 'missing links'.

"all the wisdom of man is foolishness to God"...paraphrasing.

lol incestuous...is that your favorite word?
Im not even going to dignify "incestuous creationism" with a response.
and you people say my statements are ludicrous.

The next religion I think is going to be just as (or maybe more) insane than spontaneous generation.
Definitely involving some kind of 'aliens'...like the 'lizardmen' that apparently live inside the earth....Bush is one of them they say.

You cleary dont see the ignorant mindset that asks the question "How can there be a Being that has always been?"

Thats why I asked those obscure questions; because they cant be answered JUST like this one.

You act as since the question cannot be answered = debunked Christianity.
Do you understand now what I am saying?



Where did I claim that "it makes perfect sense to think that God just POPPED into existence." ?
You're getting quite emotional over this arguement, I dont think are emotionally stable to engage in a discussion such as this.
why?
because you reframe my statements to be something I never stated.
i know you're not doing this on purpose so the only reason to be reacting this way is because you feel threatened.
Could be wrong..



As I said before we as humans dont have the mental capacity (that means intelligence) to understand a concept where a Being as always been.


Thats not avoiding anything.
Thats outlining the ignorance in the mindset that suggests that we ARE able to understand such a thing.

"if you dont like scary answers, dont ask scary questions."
How can Something exist before TIME itself existed???

Just because the Bible doesnt explain certain things doesnt conclude that it is invalid.



When I speak to someone Abra I dont use quotations when I speak to them unless I am quoting myself from a previous post.



I am the same, but only one of us is correct.
Because you fail to see the flaws of evolution ___________ (fill in the gaps!)



rofl, I've already made my rebuttal to this.



True, there are many many Christians that believe in both; incl Sylvia Baker (the Author of Bone of Contention, Is evolution true? )
But after the arguements that arose about the evolution of the eye within her years at college she realised that (in combination with the abundant evidence of the Great Flood) that it is impossible to believe in both.

[quote[


If that’s true then why do you feel so threatened by evolution?


Already replied to this; see previous post on why I LOVE (not being sarcastic) evolution!



Christianity survived many discoveries of science. It’ll most likely survive the discovery of evolution too. It’s just another bump in the road. Don’t take it so hard. The sooner you accept it the easier it will be to swallow.


(my emphasis)
lol your confidence (or ignorance?) is hilarious!

Yea too bad its the WRONG book.

Again, before you insist we read his book, maybe you should read some reviews. Here is a taste of one :

'... Review: Bones of Contention :
... the book fails badly and will not convince anyone familiar with the details of the literature on human evolution...'

read the whole review :
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_lubenow.html

You were saying: '... I don't need luck, I know my ground is solid ?!?!?...'
To some, moving sands can appear to be 'solid ground', if they have attempted their whole life to walk on ...
... WATER !!!




No no no no,

"Bone of Contention - Is Evolution True?" by Syliva Baker M.Sc.

I havent read Bones of contention.

LOL!!!!!!!
So you wont even admit your error?
not to mention trying to cover up the bs with that last line!

whats wrong yzrabbit1?
did something happen to your post?
omg! I hope is ok!