Not to mention today,
250 dead so far and hundreds injured.

Surely we can find some good going on but when so many are still dying it can certainly get overshadowed. Building schools and helping doesnt get as good a rating as bombs and deaths does it?

Angel, To funny!!!!

Oct 5th

Ok Folks,
I started thsis post in order to see everyones view. Like lots of other things, folks get personal. "If you dont agree with my views or my party you are wrong". Wow thats whats wrong with the world isnt it? Opinions are like anything else. Everyone has one. No need to get personal people. Bad part is you are all correct to some degree. Those who say pay sure your right. Some people have to pay. Those who say you dont are also correct. "income tax" as it was first drafted meant a certain type of gain and if you didnt fall in that category you werent expected to pay. The argument about taxes for road and so on is also correct. However most if not all of that comes from the states by way of sales tax and state tax. Federal usually doesnt get involved unless theres an emergency or its part of the highway system which was planned many many years ago. For all of those claiming to read the tax law you would have to do a whole lot of reading to keep up because anytime a loop hole is found another "piece of wording" is added. The tax code isnt understood by IRS employees themselves as evident in many court cases where the question is asked to "show me the law" and cant answer. Like most of us we read a piece of paper and assume thats the word of the land and dont bother digging deeper. Those that get away with not having to pay "Federal Income tax" on wages are able to prove the law and are lucky enough to have a jury or judge interpret the law as they do. Not all are that lucky. Its true that if you dont pay some sort of tax you are either exempt or hiding. Churches collect millions maybe billions in funds and dont pay a red cent tax yet they use all the government services to the max. Police,fire,medical you name it and yet they dont pay taxes. So does that mean its fair? I dont know. Not for me to decide but the point is there are lots of exceptions to paying taxes and just because one doesnt pay "I pay" doesnt mean your a fugitive. Anyway I appreciate everyones views just please dont get to personal about it. Everyone is entitled to support whom they believe in without being crazy or a traitor. :-)

Actually funny folks.
Its amazing how once you have your view set in your mind as to whay it should be not even something in writting can change it. Thats a classic example of "interpretation". Which is why some get away with it and some dont. You find a lawyer who knows how to interpret a certain law and convince the jury its wrong and sure enough they do. I've read quite a bit of the tax law and I am willing to bet I have not read a fraction of it. Yet the portion that says we must pay will refer you to another paragraph and so on and so forth/ yet the part that says "gains" as I interpret it means just that gains. not salary,not wages but gains. You exchange something like work for salary doesnt make sense for it to be a gain. A gain would be hitting the lotto :-) surely one dollar ticket isnt of equal value to 100 million prize. 8 hours work sure is worth 10-20 bucks an hour but one dollar for millions is a bit different. So " as I interpret" what ive read income is not a gain and the day I can afford a lawyer and time I will certainly make my case. Everyone else can interpret as they please. However dont think for a minute the government will go broke if they stop collecting our "income tax" The special interest groups might not get their billion dollar contracts but the population will not suffer. think of it this way. If giving a tax break is always advertise as the trickle down effect and will help so many people and the economy then why not do away with it all together. If passing a multi-billion dollar cut helps so much then cut all of it and help that much more. MMMM I wonder!!!!

Hey KB, whats going on?
On the topic,
A politician is a will always be a politician. They get to where they are by owing favors. Always has been and always will be. I do agree I wish Ron Paul was running In a different party b/c the republican party has had its shares of bumps and bruises in the last 6-7 years and anyone republican has to fight that. From the corrupt like Abronoff to the child molesters of the page program to not finding WMD”s. Democrats had to deal with sexual scandal and secrets going out the back doors like illegal immigrants. When its all said and done the only happy people are the money people pulling the strings. They have the population fighting for their parties. They know exactly who to back and having the money they do, always get their man or woman elected. As long as we are bickering about how Republicans or democrats are screwing the country up the money people are laughing all the way to the bank. I are with someone here who said it cant be about party voting. Has to be for the one that resembles your views the most. Lots of times it is the lesser of two evils but if we hold them accountable often enough the new ones might get the picture. Someone on the internet “can’t remember the name” posted all of the senators and congressman names and #’s for their homes right before the “amnesty vote” and they did not like that at all. So sooner or later these people will get the idea they are there for us not the other way around. The only way to do it, isI to hold them accountable as a person and not a person from a particular party. In the old days people fought for the rights of all. Now people fight to defend their party and I am pretty sure we wont get anything accomplished that way.

Rambill,
Hows the insulating form business coming? Still interested in doing one so I might get in touch with you when im ready for some advice.
I would like to see those 27 steps you talk about and I agree with you. When you go down that road you need to be ready for a rough ride so have it all ready.

Garden,
The fact that people will question a law or a government action isnt always a conspiracy theory. The government is here "or suppossed to be" to serve the people and will only do as much as the people allow them to do. To not question their actions doesnt make you a better citizen or a dedicated one. It allows those with bad intentions to continue unchallenged. If we were to live based on the "govt can do no worng" theory we might as well not had a "Boston Tea party" way back when. Its not only ok to question our leaders its our duty. Thats why they have elections. This is a way of letting them know what we do and dont approve of. the fact that more main stream media is actually reporting about these IRS cases leads one to believe its opening a previously believed taboo of pay or go to jail. More and more people are simply asking the IRS to just show them where it says we have to pay on 100% of what we earn. This is not a gain in my opinion. Its an exchange. labor for money. If you have your millions in the stock exchange or bond market and gain some nice sums of interest then thats considered a gain and taxes should be paid. The example of corporations who earn a certain amount and are allowed to deduct expenses prior to paying taxes is a very good example of how "income" should be treated. I dont have all the answers either Garden but I will continue to read all sides rather than just submit because its always been that way. As I said earlier, everyone can draw their own conclusion.

Random,
I believe thats most folks position. You noticed it was an attorney who actually took them on and previously I read of a prior IRS agent who took them on. I guess if you have money and time you can risk it and not worry about them garnishing your wages while the process is ongoing.

I believe this was previously discussed here. Draw your own conclusions. I will copy/paste the article and the link in case someone cant bring it up.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56855

THE POWER TO DESTROY
IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability
Lawyer is acquitted after arguing income levy lacks legal foundation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: July 26, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern


By Bob Unruh
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com


The Internal Revenue Service has lost a lawyer's challenge in front of a jury to prove a constitutional foundation for the nation's income tax, and the victorious attorney now is setting his sights higher.

"I think now people are beginning to realize that this has got to be the largest fraud, backed up by intimidation and extortion and by the sheer force of taking peoples property and hard-earned money without any lawful authorization whatsoever," lawyer Tom Cryer told WND just days after a jury in Louisiana acquitted him of two criminal tax counts.

And before you consign him to the legions of "tin foil hat brigades" who argue against paying taxes, and then want payment to explain how to do that, he addresses the issue up front.

(Story continues below)

"These snake oil peddlers have conned millions of dollars out of many well-intended patriots and left a trail of broken lives in their wake. … These charlatans should be avoided, not only because they will lead you to bankruptcy and prison, but because by association they discredit those who are telling the truth," he said.

The truth, he said, is where he comes in, with the launch of a new Truth Attack website that is intended to build on his victory, and create a coalition of resources to defeat – ultimately – the income tax in the United States.


The logo for the new Truth Attack campaign against income taxes

Although the legal citations in the case tend to run the length of paragraphs, Cryer told WND the underlying issue is not that complicated. Essentially, he argued that income is not necessarily any money that comes to a person, but rather categories such as profit and interest.

He said the free exchange of labor for compensation has been upheld as a right by the Supreme Court, but that doesn't necessarily make the compensation income.

If ever such an argument were to be presented widely, Cryer said, the income to the federal government would plummet. But not to worry, he said, the expenses could be reduced equally by eliminating programs, departments and agencies that also have no foundation in the Constitution.

"The Founding Fathers intentionally restricted the taxing powers of the new federal government as a measure of restraint on its size. By exceeding that limited taxing authority the federal government has been able to obtain resources beyond its intended reach, and that money has enabled the federal government to exceed its authority," he said.

For example, he said, the Constitution does not empower the federal government to regulate education, or employment, and agriculture, yet it does so.

The jury in U.S. District Court in Louisiana voted 12-0 to find Cryer, of Shreveport, not guilty of failure to file income taxes for two years. He had been indicted in 2006 on charges of failing to pay $73,000 to the IRS in 2000 and 2001. The next step in his personal case will be up to the IRS and prosecutors, if they choose to continue the issue, he said.

But for the rest of the nation, he's working with Save-a-Patriot, the Free Enterprise Society, Live Free Now and his own Lie Free Zone to spread the message of the truth.

"There are three points that are important," he told WND. "There's no law making the average working man liable [for income taxes], there's no law or regulation that allows the IRS to contend that earnings are 100 percent profit received in exchange for nothing, and the right to earn a living through any lawful occupation is a constitutionally protected fundamental right, and it is exempt from taxation."

Spokesman Robert Marvin in Washington's IRS office told WND the Internal Revenue Code provides for taxation on salaries or wages, but when pressed for a specific citation, or constitutional provision, he said, "I can't comment."

Cryer's encounter with tax law began more than a decade ago when a friend told him the income tax was sham. Cryer started researching, hoping to keep his friend out of trouble. But his conclusions, after years of research, were exactly what his friend told him.

He researched not only tax laws, but also the documents pertaining to the drafting of the U.S. Constitution as well as the first income tax.

He said throughout his battle, he's offered at every turn to pay taxes if the IRS could show him the authorization, and that never has happened.

"The Criminal Investigation Division and Department of Justice both responded only with 'your position is frivolous.' I had never stated a position, so how could they know whether it was frivolous?" he said. "Imagine my sending you a bill for $1,000 and when you call me and ask what the bill was for I simply said, 'that position is frivolous, just write the check and send it in.'"

His acquittal, he said, was a precedent because it means "people can see and recognize the truth."

He said multiple Supreme Court opinions have affirmed an individual's ownership of his or her own labor, and "exercising your fundamental rights" is not taxable. "It is definitely a trade. What most people receive in the form of wages, salaries or in my case fees that they personally earned for their labor is not received in exchange for nothing."

He said there might be a profit that should be taxable, but there might not.

"The IRS lets Wal-Mart sell a trillion dollars worth of goods, but they can back out their cost of goods [before being taxed,]" he said. "The IRS considers, in the case of a Wal-Mart wage earner, 100 percent of what he takes in is profit."

"But he's using his life, energy and work lifespan, and depleting it as he goes," Cryer told WND. "[Working] is a God-given fundamental right that is protected under the Constitution and can't be taxed any more than exercising freedom of speech."

While he waits to see what, if anything, the IRS and Justice Department will do next in his case, he's working to coordinate the groups that are battling taxation as unconstitutional.

"I have started a campaign to unify [the work] and we've got a number of organizations that are sponsoring and supporting this campaign," he said. The goal is to get everyone "who is aware of the truth" organized so they can spread the word.

He warned without a restoration of constitutional basics, the nation is lost.

"Read your Constitution and you will see that the federal role does not include ANY authority to regulate or tax any citizen directly and that WE expressly reserved the right to rule and govern ourselves as States, not as mere political subdivisions," his website says.

"The Constitution does not allow the government to run your lives, but the money it is stealing from millions of Americans is the fuel for its over-reaching and kibitzing. Take the money back and we and our states and communities can again be free," he said.

The fight is over "our FREEDOM from rule by a DISTANT RULER, just as we fought to free ourselves of a distant England over 200 years ago," he said.

Garden,
I have to agree with Davinci. The general population really is not suppossed to pay taxes. The income tax was created in 1913 right after the Fed resr b/c they knew it was the only way for the Gov to come up with money to pay the interest back for borrowing our own money from the Fed Res. Now income tax is legal to an extent. the code reads " anyone having any gains from the dealing with the fedral govt. Which means Federal employees and business doing business with the US. I believe it was the GAO who said the Federal government uses income tax to pay for the interest owed to the Fed Res. So they cant even generate enough money to pay that much less entitlement programs. The Feds make more than enough money to pay for all those programs thru gas tax and state taxes "their share" to the Fed Govt and arms sales. All of those F-16's and tanks we give people like Iraq "back then" generate alot of income. So if all the people that pay taxes and shouldnt stopped tomorrow tha only difference you would like find is the deficit getting larger and since we are in the middle of a war and checks are being written and money created out of the thin air that tradition will continue and the tab will climb just a tad further. This is common knowledge and easy to verify thru the GAO and our own govt sources. What is a bit more difficult to find is how much the Fed REs makes each year at our expense b/c they have no accountability whatsoever to congress much less the people of this nation. However in 1992 alone I believe they made 292 billion in interest charges from the US so you can imagine if we are paying them that much in interest then if we started printing and issuing our own money backed by gold or silver and not having to pay to borrow it like the constitution says then we wouldnt have a need for income tax. :-) The IRS code contains millions of words but everytime someone gets their case thrown out of court just inches the way towards the US having to deal with the issue all over b/c its in dire need of an overhaul. the last case thrown out of court cited an IRS agent saying " We dont sign the 1040's saying I affirm I owe this and sign it to be correct. In other words they said when we sign the tax form we are the ones saying we owe that money not them. they are enforcing our statement. So when you file taxes you can say you owe nothing and request a refund of funds held. So their fear is everyone will catch on and they will be out of a job. :-) Really... No taxes means no IRS. for the most part anyway.

Unfortuanately with the tittle of big brother,big money and big weapons comes large responsibilities and they do fall on us alot of times. We have to find a happy medium to get people back to post 911 and pre-war excitment about being an american. We all had banners and flags and hurrahs here and everywhere and lost it somewhere along the road. We should be able to help people abroad that need help and really help people here like Katrina victims and do it in a bi-partisan way to help us as a nation not as a particular political party looking for votes or running for re-election. Im glad only a third of the senate is up for election at a time. I couldnt stand all of them running at the same time. lolol

Davinci.
Thanks. I just like the idea of someone actually going against the grain. Hes said he would do away with taxes and the Fed Res and that to me is music to my ears. I just have to get off my butt and go get registered as a republican so I can vote for him during primaries. Im glad they dont have a service charge for times ive changed. lol
Seriously I am so glad there actually is someone that doesnt sound like all the rest. Doesnt matter what party they all seem to take lessons from the same book b/c they all same the SAME thing. Woman,white,black,democrats or rep. To make matters worse they started way early this year. :-) Which just means all those millions extra they need to run a 2 year campaing will have to be paid back two fold. Lolol

Tomokun,
Good point on Iraq and oil converting to euros. Some people forget theres actual footage out there with rumsfeld shaking hands with Sadaam when we helped him overthrow the current leader "at the time" for the same reason. The cuerrent leader was planning on getting away from the dollar for the good of his people and sadaam was instituted to stop that from happening and thats not propaganda. thats good old history available for all to read and see.

searching,
I agree those less than smart people killing their own people by asking them to wear loaded vest are a threat but I have to ask myself. why are we there? I was in the Marines during the initial gulf with the american hostages. We gave Iraq weapons. We give Israel weapons and all they ask for. Israel and the arabs have been at war for ages. A lot longer than the United States has been a nation. Japan attacked Pearl harbor because "in part"we took part in sanctions that affected their country. We as a nation began with a little thing called the Boston Tea party b/c we didnt like what they were doing to us. Now if someone comes into your country or helps someone you are having conflicts with of course you will react. Is it right to do the things like beheading? Of course not. My point is we cant seal our own borders yet we spend billions of dollars abroad. I am not an isolationist by any means but I will take care of my family before I will take care of someone elses. Until we get out of others business we will have to deal with all kinds not just muslims. My unit was the unit that lost a lot of good people in the barracks in beirut. I had transfered out of the unit a few months earlier and I am here to tell you theres more to it that the media or the gov tells you. I assure you. I just wish we as a nation placed as much effort on home as we do with all other nations be it oil or money issues. We landed on the moon in the 60's yet we cant find alternate energy 40-50 years later to avoid having oil shortage. You have to admit its strange.

Searching4
I would take the time to answer and maybe even find something related to Iraq and Kuwait issue but I get the impression no one will change youre mind as to other issues being at stake so I wont bother. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. thats why its still a free country. Glad I could make you laugh. Its a gift of mine. :-)

Kidat heart
You know money has been the cause of all evils along with religion. More people have died because of religion than any other reason so it stands to reason those two facts would have something to do with whats going on. Dont really blame people for believing that the other party is at fault. Our parents went one way and we usually follow so its difficult to break from the pack unless you are willing to dig a bit to read about whats going on around the rest of the world not just the US. When these senators can amaze 30 billion dollars in a few weeks its naive not to believe someone is going to be knocking on doors for return favors. They all have the same story and whichever party is not in office has plenty of ammo to critizice the incumbent and vice versa. Clinton got caught with his pants down and the person pushing it "Ginrich" just admitting having an affair at the same time. Senators and congressman molesting kids in the page program and taking bribes "albernoff" massage parlors and hookers. Its not restricted to one party. They all do it. Some just get caught. Until lobbying is banned it will continue. Paste and listen to this. Did some liberal do this piece? Probably but it does show the double talk that goes on and like I said BOTH parties do it. Just depends on whose signing the checks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgfzqulvhlQ

I have to agree wit Tomokun. This is about money. I see alot of people going back and forth about staying in touch with current events and history and so on. Well if you watch Fox news you will get one story. If you watch liberal media you will get another side. Please folks dont forget who owns all the media and what their goal is. Their goal is to have you folks doing exactly what you are doing here. Blamming Republicans and Democrats for our woes. Tha is precisely what they want. The people with money like the Morgans,Hatthaways,berkshires and I can go on all day will back a particular candiate if it suits their needs. Dont think for a minute they are party loyal. They started the Federal Reserve years ago and the only thing they want is to keep it going because they make billions of dollars and dont pay a red cent in taxes. Taxes were started in 1913 along with the Federal Reserve. The only reason taxes were started was to pay for the interest we would incur on the borrowed money. Taxes were meant for those "dealing with the Federal Govt ONLY" it carried thruout the years by way of sneaky wording so working people would pay as well. See when you read history you have to go back far enough to find the root of the problem and GW or Clinton were alive when it started but as long as they keep the population at each others throat with this party nit-picking people will stay away from them and federal reserve. Go to youtube and listen to some of what this republican congress man by the name of Ron Paul is saying about the Fed. Res then find listen to a man called Aaron Russo talk about how the Fed resv came about and out tax system and youll know why the US does what it does. Those countries "in trouble" with the US is b/c they want out of the dollar and if the US lets them out of the dollar we are in trouble. Iraq only invaded Kuwait because WAY back when it belonged to Iraq. Read far enough and you will see also that Iraq informed the US it was going to take Kuwait back and the US gave it a green light to later get involved as the savior of Kuwait. See the beauty of de-clasified papers "bush #1" is that you find out lots of the real story and reading foreing news you find out even more b/c like I said the media here is bought and paid for. Am I a democrat? yeap. Am i Republican ? yeap. I vote for the person not the party and this time around I will support Ron Paul because he is the only one asking to have the Federal Reserve be gone and once we dont have to pay to borrow our own money maybe we can begin to fix our economy and dollar which contrary to popular belief is NOT doing well.
Of course just my two cents worth. :-)

Well lets try my two cents worth. On an earlier post someone said " if it aint broke why bother" kind of comment. Maybe if you look at it this way you might think it is broken. Guess what else was instituted in 1913 as a way to payback the interest the US would now have to pay for BORROWING money from the Feds? Turns out they knew they wouldnt have the money to pay for the interest so a little thing called "Income tax" was started. Now if that doesnt hit home I dont know what does. To begin with the income tax is suppossed to be paid by federal employees and business doing business with the Fed govt. "only". If you read the tax code it states anyone with dealings with the federal government. Problem is like everything else no one admits this and you get someone like Ron Paul and Aaron Russo willing to be different and say it out loud and all of a sudden they are crazy and dont know what they are talking about. Well its going to take alot more people like davinci and Ron Paul and Aaron Russo to get it back the way its suppossed to be so in the mean time the best thing we can do is quit believeing everything you hear in the news and do some reading on your own and educate ourselves because the Feds and the politicians arent going to give it to us for free. Persoanlly I am really enjoying Ron Paul and his message for change. Nice to see someone that does not follow the tipycal cookie cutter candidate speech. They all same the same thing. Republicans and Democrats. Listen to Ron Paul even on youtube and you will listen to the only person running for office not saying the same thing as the rest. Is he barely in the poll numbers? Sure but thats only because people are afraid of change even if its a good one. They vote with a party for the sake of doing the same thing not because the person they are voting for is doing anything different. These same federal reserve folks are the ones bank rolling all of these candidates and all they want is for the public to be so involved in their particular party winning that they wont see the bigger picture which is no matter who wins they still own this country by way of controlling the money. We won the Boston Tea party a few years ago but they got us back ten fold by controlling our money. I wouldnt mind not paying taxes and if Ron Paul says thats the first thing he would do away with then he certainly has my vote. :-)

Oh boy where do I start..
1- Get rid of the Federal Reserve which is no more federal than most of
us. The right to coin money belongs to congress not private bankers. We
should not have to pay interest for money our government can print for
free.
2- Get rid of lobbyist from DC. Let them lobby directly to the state
where they reside or base themselves. Maybe then our elected folks will
make decisions based on their regional need not on their "special
interest" groups.
3- Let the all of the representatives earn a retirement at the same time
most of us do. After a life long career and not full salary after one 6
year term with free medical and all. Might not be so quick to spend our
Social Security money.
4-Get rid of the Electoral college system. That was good when we had no
TV or internet but now lets be like the rest of world and our own school
system He or she who receives the most votes WINS.
5- Maybe just maybe we could leave the rest of the world alone and for
once just take care of our own needs. :-)
6- I have more but I will stop at

RON PAUL "texas" running for president should be looked at seriuosly by
every one. He really seems to be the only legit perosn out there. Listen
to his ideas and tell me if he sounds like the rest of those folks from
either party.

Morena my middle name is sky. :-) You can touch me. Lolol If we are
both flying you thnk we can become members of the mile high club? Lol