no photo
Wed 05/30/12 08:24 AM



Capitalism/Corporatism/Fascism/


Makes no difference what you call it.





Yes it does, becuase its the difference between the fix, and the problem.

Have you heard of micro loans? Micro loans are CAPITALISM. Ownership of property is vital to resource management, and if you use your own example you can see that when the government does not allow citizens in countries like Nigeria to own land they then do not feel the need to invest in the land and expand there operations, so you end up with a lot of tiny farms producing inefficiently and do not seek out capital to invest in there own operations because they know ay any time someone can come and take the land. Property rights are vital to the production of commodities which are the catalyst for the standard of living.


The problem in the US right now is privatized profit, but socialized risk.



You should apply for one of those Micro Loans and live The American Dream Bushi just like your Bossdrinker

If all you guys got together and done exactly the same work as you do now you would reap all the profit.

Lovely example of worker power here in Ireland recently.

An Hotel that was on the market for 5million Euros at the height of false economy madness was recently bought for 650,000 by the entire workforce cutting out the wiseguysdrinker




So you use an example of capitalism at work to counter . . . . an argument for capitalism at work?

I currently do have projects that are in the works to develop novel applications of technology that we make use of here at my company, the owner knows about it, and doesn't care. In fact some of the same investors he uses are interested in anything we produce.

There is nothing wrong with capitalism, what is wrong is with governance and entitlements. Handouts of the bailout kind are just entitlements taken large. Socializing risk is what makes the behaviors risk grow exponentially, and is the direct cause of much of the financial problems of the world today. There should be no too big to fail.

So far in this thread I have seen very little in the way of cogent arguments against capitalism. In fact none.

no photo
Wed 05/30/12 07:07 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Wed 05/30/12 07:19 AM



Look all I'M saying is that denocracy is a political system that is supposed to, in theory, benefit the majority but that the economic system of capitalism seems to benefit a minority. Therefore, how can a democracy be democratic, when the minority who control the economic wealth also get all the benefits of that society ?


I don't see how it benefits "a minority" and I don't know what "minority" you are talking about.

So excuse me, I just don't know what you are talking about.

If you don't want to "explain" then I will just forget it.


the minority are the very, very rich who control things like politics, the media etc, the majority are the rest of us the 99 per cent... Do you see the world outside of the U.S.A ?


My boss, the owner of the small company I work for is very rich . . . however I am not, but you know what, I benefit from him employing me in a skilled trade.

In fact every single person he interacts with gets a benefit, becuase he is either spending money, or hiring people to do services.

He is using his capital to do things.

Government forcing citizens to pay into a socialized risk system, where big companies get bail outs is not the same thing at all.


The price of food rises and the rich buy land in under-developed countries.


The pace at which investors in richer countries have been buying farmland in developing nations has slowed with the fall in food prices this year from peaks hit in 2008, United Nations farming experts said on Tuesday.

The surge in food prices fuelled large-scale purchases of farmland by rich countries including Gulf Arab states, a trend that drew criticism for harming the interests of local people.
. . and unless they sit on it, and do nothing with it, then its not a problem. When a company comes in, buys land to use it for growing crops they also bring in resources to make growing those crops more efficient, AND it costs money to move those goods, so if a market exists they will sell to the local market, and if competition is good the prices will be good as well.

Capitalism/Corporatism/Fascism/


Makes no difference what you call it.
Yes it does, becuase its the difference between the fix, and the problem.

Have you heard of micro loans? Micro loans are CAPITALISM. Ownership of property is vital to resource management, and if you use your own example you can see that when the government does not allow citizens in countries like Nigeria to own land they then do not feel the need to invest in the land and expand there operations, so you end up with a lot of tiny farms producing inefficiently and do not seek out capital to invest in there own operations because they know ay any time someone can come and take the land. Property rights are vital to the production of commodities which are the catalyst for the standard of living.


The problem in the US right now is privatized profit, but socialized risk.

no photo
Tue 05/29/12 04:33 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 05/29/12 04:36 PM


Capitalism is much less than what people want to make it out to be.

I have a shovel. That is capital. I am not doing anything with that shovel. You are my neighbor and need to use a shovel for a few days, but do not want to buy one. I rent you my shovel to use for two days for much less than the price of the shovel.

That is capitalism. THAT IS IT. Nothing more.

Capitalism is good becuase it takes resources that are not being put to use, and puts them to use to the benefit of both parties.

However it gets a bad rap, because people call political tinkering, or corporatism, capitalism.




Capitalism is a leech that feeds off democracy:smile:
Explain your comment given the real definition of capitalism.
Democracy equals thae majority benefits capitalism means the minority benefits.
Your just making assertions. How do you come to the conclusion that allowing someone to make use of your property in order to achieve some goal, but at a price, equals the minority benefits? Because everyone involved is benefiting, from the person making use of the capital to the person who loans it out for profit.

You will have to explain.

So why then do the people who have more wealth control the political system ?
The governance system is not the same as capitalism. You are equivocating.

no photo
Tue 05/29/12 04:19 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 05/29/12 04:23 PM

I thought Peter was trying to imply a similarity between the Rife device and other tools. That was just a guess.
Even if the rife device was an effective means to ablate cancer cells, or surgically remove them, that is not evidence of some kind of single cure for cancer. Surgery and tumor removal is a part of modern medical science and differing techniques of removal do not amount to a conspiracy.

Just more nonsense being linked without any explanation for what claims are being made.

Rife claimed to have documented a "Mortal Oscillatory Rate" for various pathogenic organisms, and to be able to destroy the organisms by vibrating them at this particular rate. According to the San Diego Evening Tribune in 1938, Rife stopped short of claiming that he could cure cancer, but did argue that he could "devitalize disease organisms" in living tissue, "with certain exceptions".[4]
This was rifes claim . . .

no photo
Tue 05/29/12 04:11 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 05/29/12 04:16 PM
On page 19 I twice acknowledged that beneficial mutations do occur and was the first to bring up the "Duffy gene", the gene that protects Africans from malaria. However these nearly alway involve loss of function in certain genes, as in all 3 of the examples mentioned by you.

For single cell organisms of about 1000 genes to evolve to complex organisms of about 32000 genes (humans) requires continuous beneficial increases to the number of genes, evolving MORE functional genes than before, not less. This has been my point this whole thread, molecular biology reveals reduced functional genes over time (sometimes usefully), not increased functional genes.
Sex is where its at. Sex has made beneficial mutations much more likely, and helps remove deleterious mutations from the gene pool.

Promotion of genetic variation

August Weismann proposed in 1889[9] an explanation for the evolution of sex, where the advantage of sex is the creation of variation among siblings. It was then subsequently explained in genetics terms by Fisher[10] and Muller[11] and has been recently summarised by Burt in 2000.[12]

George C. Williams gave an example based around the elm tree. In the forest of this example, empty patches between trees can support one individual each. When a patch becomes available because of the death of a tree, other trees' seeds will compete to fill the patch. Since the chance of a seed's success in occupying the patch depends upon its genotype, and a parent cannot anticipate which genotype is most successful, each parent will send many seeds, creating competition between siblings. Natural selection therefore favours parents which can produce a variety of offspring.

A similar hypothesis is named the tangled bank hypothesis after a passage in Charles Darwin's The Origin of Species:

"It is interesting to contemplate an entangled bank, clothed with many plants of many kinds, with birds singing on the bushes, with various insects flitting about, and with worms crawling through the damp earth, and to reflect that these elaborately constructed forms, so different from each other, and dependent on each other in so complex a manner, have all been produced by laws acting around us."

The hypothesis, proposed by Michael Ghiselin in his 1974 book, The Economy of Nature and the Evolution of Sex, suggests that a diverse set of siblings may be able to extract more food from its environment than a clone, because each sibling uses a slightly different niche. One of the main proponents of this hypothesis is Graham Bell of McGill University. The hypothesis has been criticised for failing to explain how asexual species developed sexes. In his book, Evolution and Human Behavior (MIT Press, 2000), John Cartwright comments:

"Although once popular, the tangled bank hypothesis now seems to face many problems, and former adherents are falling away. The theory would predict a greater interest in sex among animals that produce lots of small offspring that compete with each other. In fact, sex is invariably associated with organisms that produce a few large offspring, whereas organisms producing small offspring frequently engage in parthenogenesis [asexual reproduction]. In addition, the evidence from fossils suggests that species go for vast periods of [geologic] time without changing much."

Spread of advantageous traits
Novel genotypes
This diagram illustrates how sex might create novel genotypes more rapidly. Two advantageous alleles A and B occur at random. The two alleles are recombined rapidly in a sexual population (top), but in an asexual population (bottom) the two alleles must independently arise because of clonal interference.



Sex could be a method by which novel genotypes are created. Since sex combines genes from two individuals, sexually reproducing populations can more easily combine advantageous genes than can asexual populations. If, in a sexual population, two different advantageous alleles arise at different loci on a chromosome in different members of the population, a chromosome containing the two advantageous alleles can be produced within a few generations by recombination. However, should the same two alleles arise in different members of an asexual population, the only way that one chromosome can develop the other allele is to independently gain the same mutation, which would take much longer.

Ronald Fisher also suggested that sex might facilitate the spread of advantageous genes by allowing them to escape their genetic surroundings, if they should arise on a chromosome with deleterious genes.

Supporters of these theories respond to the balance argument that the individuals produced by sexual and asexual reproduction may differ in other respects too – which may influence the persistence of sexuality. For example, in water fleas of the genus Cladocera, sexual offspring form eggs which are better able to survive the winter.
Increased resistance to parasites

One of the most widely accepted theories to explain the persistence of sex is that it is maintained to assist sexual individuals in resisting parasites, also known as the Red Queen's Hypothesis.[8][13][14]

When an environment changes, previously neutral or deleterious alleles can become favourable. If the environment changed sufficiently rapidly (i.e. between generations), these changes in the environment can make sex advantageous for the individual. Such rapid changes in environment are caused by the co-evolution between hosts and parasites.

Imagine, for example that there is one gene in parasites with two alleles p and P conferring two types of parasitic ability, and one gene in hosts with two alleles h and H, conferring two types of parasite resistance, such that parasites with allele p can attach themselves to hosts with the allele h, and P to H. Such a situation will lead to cyclic changes in allele frequency - as p increases in frequency, h will be disfavoured.

In reality, there will be several genes involved in the relationship between hosts and parasites. In an asexual population of hosts, offspring will only have the different parasitic resistance if a mutation arises. In a sexual population of hosts, however, offspring will have a new combination of parasitic resistance alleles.

In other words, like Lewis Carroll's Red Queen, sexual hosts are continually adapting in order to stay ahead of their parasites.

Evidence for this explanation for the evolution of sex is provided by comparison of the rate of molecular evolution of genes for kinases and immunoglobulins in the immune system with genes coding other proteins. The genes coding for immune system proteins evolve considerably faster.[15][16]

Further evidence for the Red Queen hypothesis were provided by observing long‐term dynamics and parasite coevolution in a “mixed” (sexual and asexual) population of snails (Potamopyrgus antipodarum). The number of sexuals, the number asexuals, and the rates of parasite infection for both were monitored. It was found that clones that were plentiful at the beginning of the study became more susceptible to parasites over time. As parasite infections increased, the once plentiful clones dwindled dramatically in number. Some clonal types disappeared entirely. Meanwhile, sexual snail populations remained much more stable over time.[17][18]

In 2011, researchers used the microscopic roundworm Caenorhabditis elegans as a host and the pathogenic bacteria Serratia marcescens to generate a host-parasite coevolutionary system in a controlled environment, allowing them to conduct more than 70 evolution experiments testing the Red Queen Hypothesis. They genetically manipulated the mating system of C. elegans, causing populations to mate either sexually, by self-fertilization, or a mixture of both within the same population. Then they exposed those populations to the S. marcescens parasite. It was found that the self-fertilizing populations of C. elegans were rapidly driven extinct by the coevolving parasites while sex allowed populations to keep pace with their parasites, a result consistent with the Red Queen Hypothesis.[19][20]

Critics of the Red Queen hypothesis question whether the constantly-changing environment of hosts and parasites is sufficiently common to explain the evolution of sex.[citation needed]
Deleterious mutation clearance

Mutations can have many different effects upon an organism. It is generally believed that the majority of non-neutral mutations are deleterious, which means that they will cause a decrease in the organism's overall fitness.[21] If a mutation has a deleterious effect, it will then usually be removed from the population by the process of natural selection. Sexual reproduction is believed to be more efficient than asexual reproduction in removing those mutations from the genome.[22]

There are two main hypotheses which explain how sex may act to remove deleterious genes from the genome.
Maintenance of mutation-free individuals
Main article: Muller's ratchet

In a finite asexual population under the pressure of deleterious mutations, the random loss of individuals without such mutations is inevitable. This is known as Muller's ratchet. In a sexual population, however, mutation-free genotypes can be restored by recombination of genotypes containing deleterious mutations.

This comparison will only work for a small population - in a large population, random loss of the most fit genotype becomes unlikely even in an asexual population.
Removal of deleterious genes
Diagram illustrating different relationships between numbers of mutations and fitness. Kondrashov's model requires synergistic epistasis, which is represented by the red line[23][24] - each mutation has a disproproportionately large effect on the organism's fitness.

This hypothesis was proposed by Alexey Kondrashov, and is sometimes known as the deterministic mutation hypothesis.[22] It assumes that the majority of deleterious mutations are only slightly deleterious, and affect the individual such that the introduction of each additional mutation has an increasingly large effect on the fitness of the organism. This relationship between number of mutations and fitness is known as synergistic epistasis.

By way of analogy, think of a car with several minor faults. Each is not sufficient alone to prevent the car from running, but in combination, the faults combine to prevent the car from functioning.

Similarly, an organism may be able to cope with a few defects, but the presence of many mutations could overwhelm its backup mechanisms.

Kondrashov argues that the slightly deleterious nature of mutations means that the population will tend to be composed of individuals with a small number of mutations. Sex will act to recombine these genotypes, creating some individuals with fewer deleterious mutations, and some with more. Because there is a major selective disadvantage to individuals with more mutations, these individuals die out. In essence, sex compartmentalises the deleterious mutations.

There has been much criticism of Kondrashov's theory, since it relies on two key restrictive conditions. The first requires that the rate of deleterious mutation should exceed one per genome per generation in order to provide a substantial advantage for sex. While there is some empirical evidence for it (for example in Drosophila[25] and E. coli[26]), there is also strong evidence against it.[citation needed] Secondly, there should be strong interactions among loci (synergistic epistasis), a mutation-fitness relation for which there is only limited evidence. Conversely, there is also the same amount of evidence that mutations show no epistasis (purely additive model) or antagonistic interactions (each additional mutation has a disproportionally small effect).



Just imagine how much sex it took to bring us here today! Thank you, thank you very much!

no photo
Tue 05/29/12 04:03 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 05/29/12 04:05 PM


Capitalism is much less than what people want to make it out to be.

I have a shovel. That is capital. I am not doing anything with that shovel. You are my neighbor and need to use a shovel for a few days, but do not want to buy one. I rent you my shovel to use for two days for much less than the price of the shovel.

That is capitalism. THAT IS IT. Nothing more.

Capitalism is good becuase it takes resources that are not being put to use, and puts them to use to the benefit of both parties.

However it gets a bad rap, because people call political tinkering, or corporatism, capitalism.




Capitalism is a leech that feeds off democracy:smile:
Explain your comment given the real definition of capitalism.



I supposed there are several definitions of capitalism. But what it truly has become is corporatism.




No.

There is only one meaning to capitalism. Capital put to use in return for a profit.


Corporatism is a different beast, and no amount of calling capitalism something other than what it is will change that.

no photo
Tue 05/29/12 04:01 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 05/29/12 04:02 PM



I do not think that capitalism and democracy are compatable, I'm asking why people think they are.:smile:


Capitalism and democracy are part of the same animal.

It starts out as democracy, and ends up as capitalism.

Democracy is capitalism in its early stages.
NO they are not I do not know where you get your info from but democracy is older than capitalism.
As long as man has had belongings, there has been capitalism.

Ugh lets thug barrow his spear for the day if he gets half the meat = Capitalism in the cave man era . . .

Ugh teaches thug to make his own spear in return for thug to teach ugh how to fish . . . Capitalism.


no photo
Tue 05/29/12 03:58 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 05/29/12 03:58 PM
Capitalism is much less than what people want to make it out to be.

I have a shovel. That is capital. I am not doing anything with that shovel. You are my neighbor and need to use a shovel for a few days, but do not want to buy one. I rent you my shovel to use for two days for much less than the price of the shovel.

That is capitalism. THAT IS IT. Nothing more.

Capitalism is good becuase it takes resources that are not being put to use, and puts them to use to the benefit of both parties.

However it gets a bad rap, because people call political tinkering, or corporatism, capitalism.




Capitalism is a leech that feeds off democracy:smile:
Explain your comment given the real definition of capitalism.

no photo
Tue 05/29/12 11:41 AM




What's wrong with using a laser to ablate tumors?


Nothing...


Then why did you say, "Check out this quack"?

no photo
Tue 05/29/12 11:21 AM

HP is part of the economic problem. Instead of cutting back jobs in the U.S, they should be more focused on keeping jobs in America, not outsourcing to other countries.
This ignores the market. This kind of thinking is what continues to keep your head firmly in the sand. Our market is now a global market place, and no amount of wishing otherwise is going to change that. Federal laws make doing business more expensive here to create the same product. Call your law makers and explain to them that THEY are the problem, they are the ones running businesses out of town. A job is only worth what it takes to make a profit off of the service, or the product. That fact can never change, and in a world market you either compete with the rest of the world, or find a new market. That will never change regardless of the platitudes and promises of politicians.

no photo
Tue 05/29/12 11:17 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 05/29/12 11:18 AM
Apparently it was NOT acid. But a combination of chemicals that can be gotten over the counter and have PCP like effects. I will see if I can find the source I read earlier. Not that it matters, humans can elicit all kinds of strange behaviors even without drugs.

BTW
The force continuum does not support using a firearm when a person committing an assault does not stop. IMHO, he should have not shot the man as the first step after issuing orders.

If a citizen had done this instead of an officer it would already be something they would try to get him on manslaughter for.

no photo
Tue 05/29/12 09:25 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 05/29/12 09:26 AM
The truth is that molecular biologists find many damaged and neutral genes when doing genome sequencing, yet do not find beneficial gene insertions.
Do you have a citation for this? You keep saying this, but I have yet to see anything that backs it up. Beneficial mutations do occur, and some of them have been recent. Have you ever heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon-eating_bacteria

There is scientific consensus that the capacity to synthesize nylonase most probably developed as a single-step mutation that survived because it improved the fitness of the bacteria possessing the mutation. This is seen as a good example of evolution through mutation and natural selection that has been observed as it occurs.[7][8][9][10]
Can you explain this without a beneficial mutation?

This discovery led geneticist Susumu Ohno to speculate that the gene for one of the enzymes, 6-aminohexanoic acid hydrolase, had come about from the combination of a gene duplication event with a frame shift mutation.[2]
His explanation makes sense, what is yours?

no photo
Tue 05/29/12 09:21 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 05/29/12 09:22 AM
Yea, I think peter was hoping that anything he posted I would just knee jerk call quackery. I actually do look into these things, and only comment if I feel reasonable certain I understand the relevance, applicability, and efficacy of a given method, technique, or treatment. I am be no means an expert, but I do take this stuff seriously. I hope if ever I make some glaring mistake in presenting something someone will correct me, and provide citations that will help me understand my mistakes. My goal is to eliminate misunderstanding, not take a side.


no photo
Sat 05/26/12 01:33 PM
Why do you think that is quackery?

no photo
Sat 05/26/12 01:29 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Sat 05/26/12 01:31 PM
I did assume we both knew what the word universe means: the definition includes all matter.
. . . and this is the standard for purely philosophical conversations, but as was explained by metal a few posts ago, that is a useless definition when dealing with actual physics.

Most physicist would define the universe as space time within the bounds of physical law, or something similar. Basically when things get weird enough or do not apply to the normal laws of physics it would not be considered our universe. Most modern physicists call this a pocket, or bubble universe.

This stuff gets deep, and I am not a cosmologist, but am a physicist. I find these conversation intriguing, but remain skeptical of many hypothesis that get called theories and IMHO do not deserve the title theory because they may not have predictive power yet, or may have very large problems that need fixing such as the landscape problem, or the vacuum energy problem.

However, the further we go the more we learn that nature is complex, but understandable.

Evolution however is the topic, and since we cannot assume energy had a beginning, you cannot assume a creator created it all. In fact a more consistent approach is to assume energy has always existed in one form or another. Even without time, there is energy.

The physical properties of the universe share relationships. Just like the weight of a rock in the surf shares a relationship with how far up the beach you find it. The force needed to push the rock relates to its distance up the shore as it relates to its mass. These same relationships are what allow matter to build in complexity.

There is a kind of natural selection of organic molecules which allow more and more complex compounds to be formed by simple processes such as convection and heat. Given time amino acids form, then lipid bi-layers can trap them, and they can then grow in complexity protected from escaping the lipid bi-layer.

This is the basic idea behind one theory of abiogenesis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg
Explained by an award winning biologist, instead of my vague recollections.

no photo
Fri 05/25/12 02:10 PM

Wow! You took something from a completely different part of physics and used it to prove a point that is not the point that was made.

Where, exactly, do the dark energy and the dark energy particles come from that appear in open space and cause the expansion of our universe? What are the laws of physics that allow the universe to expand?

The bottom line, to use your words, is that the universe is an open system, not a closed one as you stated, and that we don't know where energy comes from or what the laws of physics are there if we could get there.

You are using the second law of thermodynamics, which is a law and a pretty good one, and using it as an absolute in a place where you don't even know if it works. Your points are escaping reality's notice.

And your above post about the conservation of energy did not explain where the virtual particles go. A brief existence is still existence.
Well said, he does not even see the contradictions in his own position.

He states with certainty that which the brightest minds would willingly admit uncertainty.

This is the egoism of creationism.

no photo
Fri 05/25/12 02:01 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Fri 05/25/12 02:08 PM


The answer was the second law of thermodynamics, which is a descriptive law (as is ALL of science). What does all of thermodynamics describe? Energy transfer within the universe.

THAT is why it is nonsense when discussing the origin of energy, or the universe. Because the context of the law is within the universe, no before, not outside, not dealing in causes of the universe.


A simple misunderstanding, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. If energy has always existed, then the amount of entropy would be far higher than it currently is. Yes, I am aware that a team of physicists determined that the universe has 30x more entropy than expected, but that is locked up in super massive black holes and doesn't count as the background entropy that we would expect to find if energy had existed infinitely.


Even in a heat death scenario energy still exists, it may not be usable, but it exists. You have made this error before in the exact same conversation, been schooled then and still did not understand.


No, I understand that completely. We argued for like 10 pages until you finally admitted that Entropy could not be converted back into matter.
If you mean this post your still wrong. Plenty of models can account for low entropy. Not that it matters if we cannot account for it, to assume a magic man did it is not an answer.

Energy is never destroyed. This has never been proven to be incorrect. Where the energy came from for the BB is something many folks would love to know. Some have hypothesis, no one seriously believes a magic man did it.

You really should have nothing to say on the topic. If science can never detect the influence of god, nor model gods interaction with reality then you cannot argue for creationism using science.

finally admitted that Entropy could not be converted back into matter.
I never admitted any such thing becuase it is not even wrong. Entropy is not matter, it is not energy. It is either a statistical principle of thermodynamics, or a useful calculation to determine useful energy.

no photo
Fri 05/25/12 01:48 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Fri 05/25/12 01:58 PM


Entropy does not destroy energy, it makes it useless.
That is all that needs to be said to refute spider.


Entropy is energy, which cannot be used. When have I ever said that "entropy destroys energy"? You can't honestly think I've ever posted that, can you? Is that just a strawman because you are frustrated or what?
It follows from your statements, it is the conclusion one must reach when someone says energy cannot have always existed becuase of entropy.



Entropy does not destroy energy, it makes it useless.
That is all that needs to be said to refute spider.


Entropy is energy, which cannot be used. When have I ever said that "entropy destroys energy"? You can't honestly think I've ever posted that, can you? Is that just a strawman because you are frustrated or what?
. . and here we go. Do I have to detail how we arrived here spider?

Here I will quote myself explaining what we are talking about again, and why thermodynamics is not a refutation.


The statement was that energy started to exist, basically that god created energy.

The rebuttal was, how do you know that energy has not always existed?

The answer was the second law of thermodynamics, which is a descriptive law (as is ALL of science). What does all of thermodynamics describe? Energy transfer within the universe.


So how does energy transfer say anything at all about energies origin or lack there of?

Either you are saying entropy destroys energy, or you are making no sense, or you are confusing at what scale we are referring. I am leaning toward no sense, but wanted to rule out your thinking entropy was something it is not. I also wanted to rule out your talking about useful energy, or not understanding that we where talking about weather energy has always existed vs coming into existence.

I have also addressed how entropy can be lowered without some magic man making it happen.

Next time when someone asks how someone else knows energy has not always existed its best to not mention entropy. Then we wont have to go over all of this again.

Entropy is energy, which cannot be used.

There are two related definitions of entropy: the thermodynamic definition and the statistical mechanics definition. The thermodynamic definition was developed in the early 1850s by Rudolf Clausius and essentially describes how to measure the entropy of an isolated system in thermodynamic equilibrium. Importantly, it makes no reference to the microscopic nature of matter. The statistical definition was developed by Ludwig Boltzmann in the 1870s by analyzing the statistical behavior of the microscopic components of the system. Boltzmann showed that this definition of entropy was equivalent to the thermodynamic entropy to within a constant number which has since been known as Boltzmann's constant. In summary, the thermodynamic definition of entropy provides the experimental definition of entropy, while the statistical definition of entropy extends the concept, providing an explanation and a deeper understanding of its nature.

no photo
Fri 05/25/12 01:34 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Fri 05/25/12 01:43 PM
Advantix, how I love thee.

Last year we went camping and I used some off brand spray for my dogs(dog safe, just didn't work)

This year the ticks where not as bad, but still I had pulled several off of me by the end of the 5 day camping trip. Not a single one on either dog using advantix.

no photo
Fri 05/25/12 01:04 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Fri 05/25/12 01:30 PM
Entropy does not destroy energy, it makes it useless.
That is all that needs to be said to refute spider.


As to the question of why the entropy of the universe would be so low if energy is eternal?

Many models have proposed mechanisms for reducing entropy. Inflation is one such model. Entropy can also be reduced via quantum mechanical fluctuations, and if the entirety of the universe was smaller than the size of the particle it would then be effected by QM fluctuations. I do not remember the name of the person who proposed this, but I can check my physics history book when I get home.

Spider, I aced thermodynamics in college, and also aced my philosophy of science course, this stuff is VERY fundamental to a physics education.
Not knowing it shows you self taught and never got the smack down we all get when we say silly things. These kinds of questions get asked regularly at uni.

Even if the universe IS a closed system and all that exists, and has always existed via big bounce/big crunch, there exists proposed mechanics for resetting entropy. Entropy is not an argument against eternal energy, and never has been.

Conservation of energy SUPPORTS the notion that energy is the most fundamental principle of nature and can never be destroyed, only transferred or transformed.

This topic is FAR more intricate and complex than what you present.
The kicker is that it really doesn't matter to this thread. Evolution is correct independently of our answers to the origin of the universe.
The attempt at a gotcha that creationists use by referencing cosmology in an attempt to refute evolution is plain to see.

Cosmic Evolution of Entropy
Entropy is defined as the degree of randomness, which can be expressed alternatively as the degree of freedom in a system (the degree of freedom is the number of different parameters or arrangements needed to specify completely the state of a particle or system). The evolution of entropy in the universe as a whole can be separated into four phases:

Leptogenesis 1. The inflaton field is a coherent system changing gradually until the end of the inflationary era (Figure 06). Such system has very few degrees of freedom, so it has a very low entropy.
2. At the end of inflation the energy density of the inflaton field decays to zero (see Figure 03a), thereby releasing lots of energy to produce particle anti-particle pairs, and to heat up the universe. It is this "reheating" that produce lots of degree of freedom, and thus lots of entropy.
3. The infusion of energy dU ceased once the inflaton energy density vanished, i.e., dU = 0. According to the thermodynamics relation dU = TdS - pdV (where p = pressure, V = volume,
Figure 06 Initial Entropy [view large image]
T = temperature), the entropy now varies as dS = (p/T)dV. The universe was dominated by radiation up to 104 years after the Big Bang. During this era p T4; since in term of the size of the universe R, T 1/R, dV R2dR, thus dS dR/R and the entropy S log (R).
4. In a matter dominated universe p = 0, thus dS = 0; the entropy is conserved as a whole for the rest of the cosmic expansion.
5. If acceleration of the cosmic expansion is taken into account, then there is infusion of energy by an amount dU. The entropy dS dU/T will increase until space is nearly empty in attaining the highest entropy state.
This is but one example of explaining low entropy.

Inflation smooths out randomness, reducing entropy.

Another mechanism is when the universe shrinks to a singularity, all matter is broken down, and entropy is reset.

So really whatever model you want to propose must deal with entropy and must explain what we see. Thus all workable models incorporate such a mechanism.

Even in the heat death universe energy exists. The fact you disagree shows me you have never done a energy density calculation on an expanding volume. A word comes to mind, asymptotic.

I am no great physicist, and I am not a biologist at all, but I did study hard, and I do understand thermodynamics.