Spiritual people often speak of death as "going Home" to be with God.

Well does this really make any sense?

Clearly in a pantheistic view of God it does make sense.

In the pantheistic view of God we are all eternal spirits and always have been. When we are born into physical bodies this only represent an incarnation of physical life, not the first creation of it.

Therefore in pantheism when a person dies they "go Home". They go back from whence they came. They go back to being one with the whole of God once again, just as they were many times before. Thus they have gone "Home".

~~~~~

However, in the Abrahamic picture of a God where people are created for the first time at birth, does it truly make any sense to speak of death as going "home". How could being with God be consider to be "Home" if a person had never been there before?

It would be a "New Home" perhaps, but certainly not "home".

~~~~~~
If I were to believe in the Abrahamic picture of spirituality and God then I must believe that I came into existence at the time my body was born. I am neither "home" nor was I ever at "home". I was simply created from nothing to suddenly exist in a strange place.

You could hardly call that "home".

So, ok. I'm conscious now, and I look around and see what life is like. There are many things that I find to be absolutely beautiful and awesome. But there are also many thing that I find to be totally disgusting and disturbing.

Then I am told that if I obey a bunch of rules and moral values (whether I agree with them or not) then I may be granted an eternal existence living under these rules and moral values (some of which I may not even feel very comfortable with at all)

So my choice at this point is to either choose to continue to exist under these often quite uncomfortable circumstances, or I can choose to simply die and truly "Go Home". Go right back to whatever I was before I was created. Which I guess would be nothingness.

Evidently in the Abrahamic Picture of spirituality my "True Home" was a state of non-existence.

So I am given a choice. I can either choose to accept eternal life based on what I see around me as an example of what life is like.

Or I can simply return to the way I was before I was offered this existence.

If that's the case, then perhaps nonexistence is indeed my choice. From what I can tell life is pretty screwed up. People love to hate each other. They are constantly fighting between each other. Apparently they worship money above all else and the entire human society is totally dependent upon economy which appears to be on quite shaky ground and driven by lust and greed more than anything else.

Based on everything I can see before me, love, and all the things that I actually like about life are rather scarce. They are the exception rather than the rule.

So as far as I can tell from the sample I've been given this is not a place that I would like to hang around in for eternity. Therefore going back to the state of nonexistence seems like the "Real Home" that might actually be a far better place to be (or not to be).

~~~~~~

In short, if the Abrahamic picture of God is true, then as far as I can tell life is more trouble than it's worth.

Even the fables of some heavenly spiritual existence are riddled with violence and the same kinds of greed and lust that we see on Earth. According to these fables the angels in Heaven turned against God and there was even a war in heaven and God himself is at constant war with a demonic angel. A war that is so threatening to this God that he had to sacrifice his only begotten son to a brutal crucifixion in order to appease the demonic angel who obviously poses a real threat to God.

So not only do humans on Earth have all their greed and lust for power, but evidently these same types of greed and lust exist in demonic angels and even in the God himself who is said to be the extremely jealous if anyone is placed before him. Apparently he is the ultimate egotistical deity who won't even begin to tolerate anyone being placed before him.

Gee whiz. If this is what life is about both on Earth and in Heaven, then yes, my choice would indeed be to "Go Home", not to any egotistical blood thirsty God, but simply to back to my "True Home" from whence I came.

And if that "True Home" was non existence, then I welcome it with open arms.

Of course the pantheistic picture of spirituality is far better. In that picture I can go home and still exist as spirit without all the horrors of egotistical humans and egotistical jealous human-like godheads.

So yes, I yearn to "Go Home". Whatever that might be. But whatever "Home" is, it certainly can't be with the Abrahamic God. Because that clearly cannot be my original "Home".

It's not only fiction, but it's also a quite underhanded and devious attempt at brainwashing people into believing that if they refuse to accept what these authors are saying they will be condemned and rejected by God himself.

It's truly emotional terrorism is what it amounts to.

It's as devious and as underhanded as a religion can be.

No I don't.

Is that a problem for you?

Obviously you are the one who is petrified with a fear of death.

So it's no wonder that you worship this religion out of fear that you will die if you fail to cower down to it.

Or is it your lust for eternal life that drives your desperation?

Clearly that's what it's all about for you.

You fear death and the ancient Hebrew myths promise a way to be saved from death, so you suck it up in desperation that it's the only way to avoid death.

That's precisely what they were hoping you'd fall for.

And clearly you did.

You fell for it, hook line and sinker.

And evidently you have become so obsessed by it that you are attempting to get other people to believe it too. Probably in a subconscious effort to convince yourself that these myths really can work this magical feat that you so desperately desire.

Obviously that's what it's all about for you.

Fear of death.

Pure and simple.

Hearsay garbage.

By your own confession the words you posted are the words of Matthew, not Jesus.

I think that's a very good philosophy to live by. Although, it doesn't need to be Jesus that people stop and think about. All they need to do really is ask themselves whether or not what they about to do is indeed something that they ultimately approve of themselves.

You use Jesus as an icon for this. But like you say, it only takes a split second to do this. Why is that? Well the reason it only takes a split second is because all you are truly doing is checking with your own sense of morality. One that you obviously associate with Jesus.

Moreover, have you ever checked with Jesus about something that you were about to do and get a really shocking answer that seemed immoral to you?

When you "check with Jesus" all you are really doing is asking yourself whether or not you consider you next move to be a highly moral thing to do. So you are ultimately just checking with your own ideals of what you believe to be the highest moral standards.

Like I say, that's a really good way to live in any case. But why attribute this to a deity. I feel certain that you could use other deities in your mind and come up with the same answers. It's basically impossible to defy Jesus by following the teachings of Buddha for example. Other than perhaps the idea that you aren't recognizing Jesus as the top dog, which itself is supposed to be an immoral thing to do according to Christianity.



Same here. I'm not a Bible-basher unless that is the conversation.

But it often becomes the conversation when people start proclaiming that the entire Bible is the "Word of God" and that Jesus is the only way to get to God.

I have no problem with people who want to believe in God through the Bible and stories of Jesus. Where I becomes extremely upset and distraught is when they act like I'm some kind of immoral criminal simply because I don't recognize the Bible to be the Word of God.

When they do that they are belittling me by accusing me of being less moral than them. In other words, they are following God, and I am rebelling against God. Which is utter hogwash. That is a truly sad thing about Christianity because the religion does not allow its followers to give any respect to any other view of God save for through Jesus as "The Christ".



It no wonder. Such a commandment is insane. It has nothing to do with morality and that's probably why you have a problem with it.



I don't do those things either, and partly for the same reason that you do. It's simply a stupid, and impractical way to try to live life. Moreover, I don't do things that I need to lie about. I realized early on in life that lying would be an utterly foolish thing for me to become involved with because I basically have no reason to lie. The only reason a person should need to lie is if they are attempting to cover up something else that they shouldn't have been doing in the first place. So liars are already guilty of having something that they need to lie about.

Steer clear of behavior that you would need to lie about and there is no need to lie.

For example, I certainly wouldn't need to lie to my lover about not being with other women if it was already true that I have not cheated. Don't cheat, and there's no need to lie about.

And like you say, don't steal, and there's no need to lie about how you've obtained things. If you don't do these things in the first place then there is no need to lie. People who lie do so because they have something they need to lie about in the first place.



Well, I will certainly agree with that too. However, as I'm sure you are already aware from my previous statements that I don't limit the term "God" to the deity described by Hebrew folklore. There are many thing that I disagree with concerning those fables.

However, I seriously doubt that I would actually disagree with a genuinely righteous and all-wise God. Therefore I see no reason to accept that the Hebrew myths describe "God" anymore than the Greek Myths of Zeus did. Both of those mythologies have God as a male personified being that is interested in blood sacrifices to appease their wrath.

So I have absolutely no problem at all dismissing the entire Old Testament as having no more merit than Greek Mythology.

I most certainly would not live by the immoral standards that been taught in the Old Testament. And clearly the man called Jesus did not approve of those immoral teachings either.

When it comes to Jesus himself, at least in terms of moral teachings, I have no problem at all with the moral teachings of Jesus. As far as I'm concerned Jesus taught far better moral values than had been taught in the Old Testament.

The Old Testament taught people to seek revenge as in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Jesus taught people to forgive each other instead and turn the other cheek rather than seeking revenge.

So Jesus himself did not support the immoral teachings of the Old Testament God.

The Old Testament taught people to judge each other and to throw stones at each other whilst calling each other 'sinners'.

Jesus renounced all of that and taught that we should not judge others and he even cleverly renounced throwing stones at other people by suggesting that only those who are without sin should cast the first stone.

It's crystal clear to me that Jesus was most likely a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist who was actually renouncing the horrible immoral teachings of the Old Testament and instead trying to instill the higher moral values that had been taught by Buddha.

Jesus probably was crucified by the Pharisees for having spoken out against their Torah. I don't doubt that at all. After all the God of the Torah taught people to kill heathens who speak out against the "Word of God" and Jesus most certainly did that. In fact, according to the New Testament rumors Jesus used to sit around and preach that the Scribes and Pharisees were hypocrites. So he was clearly "Bible Bashing" the Torah every chance he got.

So I have no problem at all with associating Jesus himself with high moral values. But when I see him used as an excuse to hold up the entire Old Testament and a lot of the immoral stuff that was in that mythology I quickly back away from the religion. I do not support the idea that Jesus was the only begotten son of the God of Abraham sent to be the 'sacrificial lamb' to pay for our salvation.

I have extreme problems with all of that.

Especially if people are going to use Jesus as an excuse to pass judgment on my relationship with "God".

That very action right there is total hypocrisy with respect to what Jesus taught about not judging others.

By the way, I realize that you are not judging me, and I'm suggesting that you are. But many Christians do judge non-Christians to be insubordinate of God if they refuse to acknowledge Jesus as the sacrificial lamb of God and the ultimate King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

And that very judgment right there becomes a huge source of animosity between myself and "judgmental" Christians.

Respect that I can worship God through Buddha, or any other personified figure I so choose, and I'll respect you.

In fact, I expected to be respected even if I should happen to chose to believe and accept atheism. That too should be respected, and not seen as rebellion against any "God".



I never say anything briefly.

I find it very difficult to convey what my religion means to me when speaking to a Christian because they often can't get past Jesus, Yahweh and a personified egotistical image of God as a Fatherly image.

They usually don't understand a pantheistic view of God at all. They can't seem to imagine an idea of a non-personified spiritual entity.

So it's basically impossible for me to share with them my views of spirituality since they can't even begin to conceptualize the idea.

Even when they try, they usually just turn their nose up at it and suggest that they simply don't like that idea of a "God".

So I can't possibly share with them the beauty of "God" when they insist that there is nothing beautiful about a pantheistic view of God.

Well, in a similar way, I see no beauty in the biblical picture of a male-chauvinist egotistical Godhead who will cast everyone into hell if they don't cower down to his demands.

From my perceptive that is an extremely ugly picture of "God".

So sharing the beauty of "God" with a Christian usually isn't possible because they reject my view of God just as much as I reject theirs.

The only difference between us is that they judge me in Jesus' name to be rejecting God, whereas I don't judge their relationship with God at all.

I don't think God would condemn someone for being a Christian.

But the Christians seem to be convinced that God will condemn someone who isn't a Christian. And rightfully so, since this is what the Bible says.


John.3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


They've been taught by the Bible to believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus is condemned already.

It's part and parcel of the Bible. That's what Christians believe in - The Bible.

So they can't very well ignore what it says.

And that becomes highly problematic for anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus was the only begotten son of God. For the Bible says, "They are condemned already".

Truly.

Take all these hateful judgmental Christians out of my sight
and we can finally have some peace and love around here.

Christians are basically spiritual terrorists who go around
harassing and accusing decent honest people of horrible things
just because they believe in a horrible hateful God.

It's disgusting.

The sooner their demonic God comes and takes them away,
the happier I'll be.

Save a man from what?

There you go with your threats again.

I have nothing that I desire to be saved from.

I do not fear death nor am I concerned with being 'saved' from it.

I have no interest in any so-called 'gift' of eternal life.

As far as I can see the fine print that is required for the 'gift'
is far too high a price. I have no desire of paying such a high price
for that so-called 'gift'

Nor do I have any desires to cower down in obedience to some evil
male-chauvinistic God for the rest of eternity.

I would politely decline any such gift.

But according to you your so-called 'God' becomes extremely violent
and evil when people try to politely decline his so-called 'gift'.

I have nothing to be 'saved' from, other than the hideous religious
zealots on this planet who go around attempting to condemn everyone
in Jesus's name.

Cowboy keeps arguing for an unrighteous God in order to save Hebrew mythology.

It makes far more sense to just toss out Hebrew Mythology, and then we can imagine a truly righteous God without any need to make excuses for the Hebrew myths.

It's the Hebrew mythology that is extremely problematic here.

Not the concept of a genuine all-righteous God.

Jesus as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva also makes far more sense than the idea that he was a demigod who totally disagreed with immoralities that had been taught in the Torah as the word of God.

So the Hebrew myths are the problem here.

Not the concept of a righteous God.

It's the Hebrew myths that are totally unrighteous.

According to the Hebrew Fables God did not get it right the first time. He created a defective couple.

God would not have had to stop them from eating the fruit. That's not what I had suggested. I suggested that God deals with that couple for their OWN behavior and then deals with the next couple based on their OWN behavior and so on.

Do you think it would be righteous if YOU were to be judged or punished for things that Hitler did, for example?

Of course, that would be totally unrighteous.

Well whether it's Hilter or Eve doesn't really make any difference. For you to be judged and/or punished for something someone else did is unrighteous.

So the Hebrew myths are necessarily false because that the kind of scenario the portray.

And that would be unrighteous which flies in the face of what God is supposed to be.

Yes that may very well be true, I suspect it is, but you would have this God condemn me anyway simply because I don't believe in the Hebrew Fables.

So once again, your portrait of this God is flawed. And the Hebrew fables must necessarily be false.

If God is going to judge people on their righteousness, and on their purity of heart, then there would be no need to have this God condemning people for not believing in Hebrew hypocrisy.

Also if people are being judged based on their own choices then there would be no need to have Jesus nailed to a pole to pay for their sins. That would have nothing to do with people's personal choices.

So if you want to believe in a righteous God toss out the Hebrew mythology.

Jesus as a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva makes far more sense.

No, death is nothing to fear, nor be saved from.

That's not the threat.

If that were the only threat, then there would be
nothing wrong with people like me simply saying
that we are not interested in this so-called 'gift'
of eternal life.

But you Christians won't accept that.

You won't allow someone to simply politely say,
"No thank you. I'm not interested in any gift eternal life".

That's not acceptable.

You have absolutely no respect for people who politely
decline the gift of eternal life.

Instead you badger them,
and continually harass them,
belittle them, and degrade them,
and proclaim them to be SINNERS
who are choosing to be DISOBEDIENT to GOD!

Where is there anything your ungodly hateful Bible
where it states that it's a SIN to politely decline
an offer of eternal life?

No, Cowboy.

Christianity is nothing less than a disgusting shameful
system of religious bigotry that simply belittles and degrades
everyone who refuses to cower down to its ignorant demands
that everyone must support its religious bigotry or GO TO HELL!

There is no way to politely decline this so-called 'gift'?

It's the most hideous 'gift' every created by mortal men.

Just try to politely decline it, and you will be proclaimed
to be the most despicable ungodly sinner on the face of the
planet who has chosen to be unrighteously DISOBEDIENT of God.

No, Cowboy.

This religion has nothing at all to do with any 'gift'.

All it has to do with is the condemnation of anyone who refuses to
embrace and support this organized religious bigotry called "Christianity".

It is religious bigotry taken to the EXTREME.

It has nothing to do with any 'gift'.

That's just its devious evil ploy.

If it were a truly a 'gift' then to politely decline it could
not be viewed as a bad thing at all. And people who politely
decline it would be totally respected for their choice in doing so,
and they would not be proclaimed to be "sinners" who are refusing
to obey the commandments of some hideous unrighteous God.

And what are you being "saved" from?

The wrath of this God himself.

What an oxymoron.

You need to be "saved" from the wrath
of the very entity that is supposedly "saving" you.

That's the epitome of absurdity.

What are you talking about?

Given enough tries eventually God would have created an Adam as least as good as me, and an Eve as good as Mary was supposed to have been, and then he'd have the seeds for a perfect humanity.

In fact, for all we know, maybe the Adam he had created was already good enough. Maybe if he would have created a Mary for him instead of a bimbo like Eve he would have gotten it right the first time.

Do you think Mary would have fallen from grace?

According to the story it wasn't Adam's idea to eat the forbidden fruit. In fact, it wasn't even Eve's idea. Eve herself was coerced by someone like you who preaches unrighteous filth as supposedly being righteous.

Like Jeanniebean says, we have far more faith in God than you do. Given enough chances I have faith that a REAL GOD would eventually get the creation of humanity right.

Although, in truth Cowboy, a REAL GOD would have gotten it right the first time. God is supposed to be perfect and incapable of failure.

This is how we know that the Hebrew fables are false Cowboy.

Just like we know that the Greek fables are false.

How many chances does the Hebrew God need to get it right?

It's a flawed story of a God from the get go.

Clearly nothing more than a very poorly written fairy tale.

Absolutely. That would have been the only righteous way to handle the situation.

Things like this is how we know that these fables are false.





No you're wrong. The biblical fables constantly speak in terms of punishments, and they also speak in terms of condemnation and everlasting punishment for those who do not obey.

So its not merely a "choice" of whether or not you wish to receive a so called 'gift'.

If you refuse to accept the gift you will be severely punished.

That's demonic Cowboy, there is nothing righteous about it.

It's a sick demented perversion of the very ideal of righteousness.






The Christian Crusaders and Witch Burners had no problem declaring war on witches and heathens and killing them in God's name.

Turning the other cheek is clearly only very small part of these doctrines.

Jesus also taught that not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law. And it was indeed God's law that heathens should be killed.

So obviously if Jesus taught people to turn the other cheek he was speaking about "Brotherly Love" among those who already believe in God. That would not apply to heathens. You have already been commanded by God to kill heathen and not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law until heaven and earth pass away.

Those are the instructions of Jesus Cowboy, so grab your sword and get out there and start lopping off the heads of heathens. It's your duty to God to seek them out and kill them. Jesus is no excuse to disobey that directive.

You will be proclaimed to be a sinner on judgment day if you don't do as you are instructed to do.

Jesus said, not one jot not one tittle shall pass from law.

So don't be using Jesus as an excuse to be a sinner.

I am ultimately agnostic as is everyone whether they confess this truth or not.

When it comes to placing 'faith' in a God this is an extremely simple thing for me.

We define the very concept of "God" as being something that if far greater than any mortal being can possible be. We attribute to this concept of "God" the notion that this God is far more righteous, far more compassionate, far wiser, and far more loving than any mortal being can imagine.

Therefore, if such a "God" exist, it must necessarily be far more righteous, compassionate, wiser, and loving than myself since I am a mere mortal man.

If that is true then I have absolutely nothing to fear from such a "God". For this God to harm me in any way would be totally unrighteous, uncaring, ignorant, and unloving.

All of which defy our very notion of what a "God" should be.

In fact, if a spiritual entity is that evil when call it a "Devil", not a "God".

So the only kind of spiritual entity I would need to fear would be a "Devil", I have no reason to fear any "God" at all.

So when it comes to "God" I have complete 100% faith that any God that actually exists will be wonderful and nice to me. At least as nice as I am or more so.

The only thing I would have to fear is if Cowboy is right and we were all created by his Devil of Abraham, and we are nothing more than the helpless pets of this hideous demon.

But if that is the true state of affairs, then it doesn't matter whether we worship the demon or spit in its face. We would be doomed to suffer its unrighteousness in either case.

There would never be any free will at all. You'd be damned if you do and damned if you don't. There would be no escape from such a hideous demon and there would never exist any righteousness for anyone.

No Cowboy, you totally miss the point. This isn't about me.

This is about how evil and unrighteous the Biblical God would necessary have to be if the bible were indeed true.

Was Eve told ahead of time that her actions would be used as an excuse for God to curse billions of women for thousands of years?

No she wasn't. Therefore these fables portray a totally unreasonable and unrighteous God. And even if God had explained this to Eve in advance, that still wouldn't justify his cursing of billions of other women who had nothing to do with Eve's choices.

In fact, this thread is about FREE WILL is it not?

Well, the fact that these fable have their sick demented God cursing billions of women for something that they didn't even personally do would already be a total violation of their personal FREE WILL.

They are being punished for something they didn't even do.

These stories that you refer to as a "Good Source" are not "good" at all. They are totally sick and demented fables. It is unfortunate that you have been misguided into believing that these perverted fables represent "righteousness".

People like you are extremely scary.

People like you are the type of people who would write something like that Malleus Maleficarum to justify torturing and burning women alive on stakes as 'witches' in Jesus' name simply because you have been convinced by fables that it is the 'righteous' thing to do.

People like you are are the type of people who could start a holy war in the name of Christ as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and easily murder all the lowly "heathens" who deny the Lord. Simply because you believe that these sick demented fables are a righteous reason to murder people. The people have failed to live up to the Will of the God in these fables, and therefore they have failed to pass the judgment of God according to you. So these fables have you believing that their condemnation if "righteous".

People like you are the type of people who could create a holocaust murdering those who deny Christ like Hitler did, and proclaim that this is clearly the Will of God and is totally righteous in God's eyes, because these sick demented fables suggest this.

People like you are the type of people who might fly planes into buildings killing thousands of people proclaiming that the entire nation those people belong to is a heathen nation of infidels and therefore destroying them is the righteous thing to do.

As soon as you start justifying all the hideous behaviors that is attributed to the biblical God as being 'righteous behaviors', then you yourself become an extremely dangerous person. Who knows what activities you might condone or participate in in the name of 'righteousness' simply because the biblical fables have convinced you that some sick demented God condones these kinds of hideous behaviors in the name of "righteousness".

~~~~~~

This is precisely what I mean about how dangerous these fables are.

You are arguing that all these hideous unjustifiable acts are indeed justified as being "righteous" simply because they are in these sick demented fables that you have been convinced is an example of the behavior of "God".

No. They are not condoned by any "God". You need to get that out of your head right away. These fables represent the sick demented totally unrighteous superstitions, bigotries, and male-chauvinism of sick mortal men.

These fables are the produce of a sick society.

They are not the 'righteous' behavior of any God.

~~~~~

This isn't about me Cowboy.

It's about a collection of sick demented unrighteous fables that are being held up as the WILL of God.

Well, that doesn't take much. Based on the views he posts he has no faith in God at all.

I don't think he would contest it. I think he would just smile and say, "I see your point".

I'm sure he never thought of humans as being 'artificial' in the first place.

We do tend to say that man-made things are 'artificial', versus naturally made thing.

I'm not sure if tossing crabs back qualifies as being 'artificial' selection though.

That kind of implies that everything humans do is 'artificial'.

If we fall in love, get married and procreate, is that 'artificial' too?

Don't mind me Bogie, I'm just poking fun at the whole idea that everything humans do is considered to be 'artificial'.

I never meant that to be a direct challenge to your personal views.

Bye bye.

I may not be able to that if I am limited to your extremely narrow views on the semantics of the term 'concept'.

These kind of semantic arguments are your hallmark.

My thesaurus offers the following words as synonyms for the term 'concept'.

idea
notion
thought
perception
impression
conception
theory
model
hypothesis
view

Truth is a man-made notion, or model, or idea, or conception of corresponding descriptions with states of affairs.

We came up with this whole concept in our minds.

In fact, I would challenge you to justify that such an idea or concept could even exist outside of the human imagination.

If our notion of truth is the idea of correspondence between a description of a state of affairs and the actual state of affairs itself, then truth cannot have any existence independent of mankind's descriptions of states of affairs.

Therefore the whole notion, or idea, of 'truth' existing outside of mankind's imagination is meaningless.

All that could exist outside of our descriptions is the state of affairs itself.

But even you confess that we are not referring to the actual state of affairs itself as being 'truth'.

Truth is a correspondence to the state of affairs.

And what is being corresponded to the state of affairs?

Man-made descriptions.

Therefore, truth cannot even exist outside of the context of being a man-made idea.

Thus truth is indeed a man-made concept.

Q.E.D.