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CeriseRose wrote: No, Abra "cad" abra...I'm pretty serious here... your philosophies are destroying our kids. I can be a little playful ...but serious... I have much compassion for our youth. If you have any compassion at all for our youth, then quite teaching them to be hateful toward others in the name of Jesus Christ. That's disgusting. And it's an absolute lie on your behalf that my philosophies are destroying our kids. If children were to truly follow my philosophies they would become the most honorable people imaginable.  Moreover they would have total respect for TRUTH. You're teaching children to support religious lies. It's a LIE to teach anyone that the Bible is the "Word of God". You don't know that. You can't know that. All you know is that the authors of those fables made the claim that they were speaking for God. But you have no clue if those people were speaking the truth or not. So if you teach any child, that the Bible is the "Word of God" or that Jesus is the only begotten son of God who died to pay for the sins of that child, they you have lied to that child. Because you can't possible know if any of that nonsense is true. Why raise children on lies? Tell them the TRUTH! The biblical cannon is a collection of stories written by an ancient highly patriarchal society that created a male-image of a god. And that's all you can truly know about those writings. That's would be the TRUTH. Teach children the TRUTH. Until you can do that, don't speak to me about having any compassion for our youth. You can't have compassion for people that you so readily lie to at such a young and impressionable age too boot! Tell them the TRUTH! And the TRUTH is that there are many WORLD religions, and that many people are even secular atheist, and NO HUMAN BEING knows which of these views might be true, if any. That would be the only real TRUTH. Either teach that TRUTH, or confess that you LIE to children. Cad, Your repetitive utterances have no weight at all. This is your way of trying to appear to have a point... Nothing you have mentioned overthrows the fact that more evidence proves the existance of the Biblical God than not. I have long discovered that your wordiness is void of anything substantial. You're more frustrated that the TRUTH you continually try to trash continues to stand firm. You may someday learn that you cannot wish  , hope  , lie  , or shout  enough expletives to destroy God's TRUTH. There may be a few here who stand in awe  of your boldness, some may be intimidated   ...but not I, you're battling SOMEONE  bigger than the both of us... The ONE who holds the earth you stand upon... And I think you know this.  But neither you or he hold sway over what the rules say can be posted on these forums, and calling someone a 'CAD' is certainly against the rules. Why don't you stick to the topic and refrain from the left-handed insults aimed at posters you don't agree with if what you say is so self-evident and true? Non-Christians are allowed to have opinions and believe what they've worked hard at arriving at in the privacy of their consciences and ponderings. -Kerry O. |
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You can go to jail in China for homosexuality and may even be killed.It is not accepted or tolerated by anyone.China is a Atheist country.Try blaming religion on that. There are parallels-- militant Christianity's 'government' is a totalitarian socialist dictatorship where dissidents are regularly threatened with eventual execution for not towing the party line. -Kerry O. |
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Fact still remains sex is for reproduction. And for people to be homosexual, they are depriving someone of this action. A homosexual males deprive possible women of having children with them and vise versa for homosexual females. Well speaking of deprivation, nobody does that like religious figures who take vows of celibacy. Sheesh, what a totally parochial mindset! Care to put that postulate to a vote? -Kerry O. |
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I have a question for you Dragoness, Would you continue to be close friends with your gay friend if you discovered she was also enjoying a sexual relationship with her biological father?  Did you continue to watch Jimmy Swaggart after he got caught doing naughty things with prostitutes? Did you condemn Ted Haggard when he got outed? Or did you pretend it was all his lover's fault and he needed your prayers and understanding? Besides, you're making a completely off-the-wall assumption that a lesbian would want sex with any male, much less her own father. In debate, that tactic is considered dishonest intellectually and is called 'Poisoning the Well'. -Kerry O. |
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We are to only have sex with the one we are married to, and we can only be married once. There is no such thing as a divorce. Au contraire. My extremely Catholic ex was married twice and got special dispensations right from Rome to divorce her first ex and marry me. Now get this-- she _then_ kicked me to the curb, divorced me and got approval from the Church by undoing the first annulment. I still don't understand totally, being an agnosic and all--I guess it's a Catholic thing. -Kerry O. |
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You aren't harming anyone? hmmm 1. Homosexuality is a great cause/spreader of STD's 2. No child comes of your sexual actions, and that would be depriving someone of making a family eg., The homosexual partners could be with a heterosexual making a family. Mostly with #2 is why it's wrong, for sex is for just that, reproduction. And what guy would marry an avowed Lesbian? As for #1, if you check the WHO statistics for Africa where AIDS is the most prevalent, I seem to recall that 98% of cases were from het sex. Lesbians have the lowest rate of contraction on the planet and monogamous male couples can't spread what they didn't have to begin with. -Kerry O. |
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I love everyone, I love you, I love funches. I would not sleep with either one of you though. That's where the decision on an action comes in. Just because you love someone does not mean you have to sleep with them, and that is exactly what homosexuality is. It is sexual actions between two people of the same gender. Same gender sex has no productivity. Sex is for REPRODUCTION. Homosexuals can not reproduce from having sex with one another, it is purely for the physical pleasure, the lustful desire. So, sterile people MUST abstain, too? And birth control is evil? (Even the recent Popes are lying low on that last one because they don't want an open revolt.) -Kerry O. Yes birth control is wrong. Again sex is for reproduction. And yes sterile people would then have to abstain. Why the big ruckess over sex? If not done for reproduction, what is so majorly important about sex? Why is it that valuable to you? Gee, I don't know-- it brings people closer together than they get being in different skins? It helps people sleep better? Even Biblical figures engaged in it openly? The French call orgasm "Le Petit Mort"-- The Little Death. It's a release of Life Force that makes you feel in your bones that you are still alive. As for trying to persuade people to give up sex and birth control? Good luck with that. -Kerry O. |
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But then you are denying them what they truly desire. How is that fair to them? It's typical Bible Thumper logic. The Bible Thumper is one with God Almighty and believes that they are of the same mind as God. Since 'God' doesn't approve, neither can they. So, if the Thumper beams enough Love at the ones which they disapprove of, the homosexuals will become "Straight Like Me." Incongruity solved. -Kerry O. |
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I love everyone, I love you, I love funches. I would not sleep with either one of you though. That's where the decision on an action comes in. Just because you love someone does not mean you have to sleep with them, and that is exactly what homosexuality is. It is sexual actions between two people of the same gender. Same gender sex has no productivity. Sex is for REPRODUCTION. Homosexuals can not reproduce from having sex with one another, it is purely for the physical pleasure, the lustful desire. So, sterile people MUST abstain, too? And birth control is evil? (Even the recent Popes are lying low on that last one because they don't want an open revolt.) -Kerry O. |
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Every good hearted person does, weather they are followers of the lord or not. That's where the term good conscience comes from. Someone knows deep down it's wrong to do this or that. So, you've actually asked every 'good hearted person' and they ALL say this? I don't think so. I know LOTS of good-hearted Christians from the "Religious Left" who don't think homosexuality is a choice and don't think a loving, committed, monogamous relationship between same sex partners is morally wrong. It's pretty much only the Extremists who constantly beat this drum. -Kerry O. |
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Does God even care?
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You are right, it's not justice, it's mercy. Justice is that every sin is punished, mercy is that God died to pay for our sins. Fortunately, at least in this country, this 'mercy' isn't allowed to be meted out for thought crimes. It would be a shame if religious fundamentalism were able to re-impose that yoke on humanity. Truly, THAT would be a sign of the End Times. -Kerry O. |
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I said that God can forgive any sins, you claim that Jeffery Dahmer was forgiven for his sins. The difference between what you said and what I said is that I said what God can do: "Forgive any sins" and you made an unsupported claim as to what God has done: "Forgiven Jeffery Dahmer". Do you see the difference? Clever dodge and misquote. If you're going to invoke the mind of God and say what he has or hasn't done vis-a-vis Jeffrey Dahmer, your claim is no more supportable than you claim mine is. I base MY claim on YOUR experts, the prison clergy who ministered to Dahmer in prison. But you, as a Believer, can? Well, which is it? That's a fair, direct question- will you answer it or not? No, it's a silly strawman argument, it's childish and it's annoying. You are making no distinction between what God can do and what God has done. Just because God CAN do something, doesn't mean that God HAS done that. I'll take that as a 'no'. You refuse to answer the question because it puts your position in a bind. Spin it anyway you like, the doctrine of YOUR religion says that all people like Jeffrey Dahmer have to do is repent and declare Lord Jesus as their Lord and Master and they are forgiven carte blanche along with a billet in heaven. Sorry, that IS NOT justice and one of the reasons I believe Fundy God is a human construct. I don't care how 'annoying and childish' you find that, I've constructed my arguments in a civil tone even as the mask on your is beginning to slip badly. -Kerry O. |
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1) Jeffrey Dahmer was forgiven by Jesus. How do you know that? 2) Jeffrey Dahmer honestly changed according to the Evangelicals, so God was honor bound to take him into heaven when he departed this mortal coil. Which Evangelicals? All of them? How many? And when did salvation become based on what a group of people thought? That's the root of the problem, you don't seem to understand the scriptures at all. It doesn't matter what anyone believes about Jeffery Dahmer, other than Jesus. 3) What Jeffrey Dahmer did WASN'T legal under secular law and like Paul, he was put in prison. Like Paul, he underwent a religious conversion after committing his crimes upon his fellow humans. Sure, Paul may not have been a cannibal, but he was no angel, either. Paul was imprisoned for being a Christian. If he had renounced Christianity, he would have been freed, instead he remained a Christian and was executed. As I have repeatedly said, Paul didn't break any laws, while he was hunting down Christians. While we can agree (I hope) that his actions of persecuting Christians were horrible, they weren't crimes. So why should he have been jailed? 4) Oh wait-- come to think of it, I suppose they are both angels now, huh? What do you suppose they talk about? :) Once again, you reveal your total lack of understanding of Christian doctrine. Why is it that you so angrily denounce a religion, which you know so little about? Hmmmm. Ask yourself that sometimes and see if you can answer honestly. Angels are not dead people. Confused? Guess what, watching reruns of "Touched By An Angel" isn't the same thing as studying Christianity. What I think is ironic is when non-Christians complain that God is too forgiving. You guys love to play both sides: God is EVIL!!!! and God forgives murderers!!!!  If someone honestly repents of their crimes, then they can receive salvation, no matter how terrible their crimes were. That doesn't mean that they don't still deserve the secular punishment. Jesus forgave the sins of one of the crucified criminals, but didn't heal him. The criminal deserved his earthly punishment, because he committed crimes, but he deserved salvation, because he honestly repented of his evil ways. Oh, I don't think it's 'a total lack of understanging' so much as having the chutzpah to call the faith on its sophistry, more schizophrenic components, improbabilities and contradictions. For instance, in this reply, you say that I, a lowly Unbeliever, can't say that Jesus forgave Jeffrey Dahmer. That was at the beginning of your reply, but by the time you got to the end, you were spouting doctrine that says 'yes, the power of Jesus CAN forgive the worst of the worst'. But you, as a Believer, can? Well, which is it? That's a fair, direct question- will you answer it or not? If doctrine is inviolate law in the same manner as gravity, ANYONE should be able to predict with certainty the outcomes, not just the Faitful. When I drop an object I can reliably predict its vector and acceleration. Ah, but when it comes to religion, I have to go to a priest? Depending on to which one I go, I'll get different answers. Who wouldn't be confused? At least until they grok that the doctrine is a Rube Goldberg Deus Ex Machina construct that is as totally unreliable as it is incomprehensible and illogical. What I find ironic about the faith is that its more militant members truck no disagreement with its tenets and treat Unbelievers as spiritual They'll-Eventually-Get-Theirs criminals. That's such a human prediliction and the reason that I'm virtually certain all _revealed_ religions are human constructs purposely wrapped up in authoritarian subterfuge. Einstein thought God didn't play dice with the Universe and I suspect he doesn't think much of the Authoritarians who sock puppet him. -Kerry O. |
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Jeffrey Dahmer was also a 'changed man' via his prison conversion and if certain Christian Evangelicals are to be believed, is spending his days in his own mansion walking streets of gold. Not that I believe he is, but it illustrates the point that religionists care more about their dogmas and doctrines than they do justice. 1) Paul was forgiven by Jesus. 2) Paul honestly changed. 3) What Saul of Tarsus had done was LEGAL under Jewish law. It would be illegal today, but he wasn't a criminal in the eyes of the Romans or the Jews. 4) Deal with it.  1) Jeffrey Dahmer was forgiven by Jesus. 2) Jeffrey Dahmer honestly changed according to the Evangelicals, so God was honor bound to take him into heaven when he departed this mortal coil. 3) What Jeffrey Dahmer did WASN'T legal under secular law and like Paul, he was put in prison. Like Paul, he underwent a religious conversion after committing his crimes upon his fellow humans. Sure, Paul may not have been a cannibal, but he was no angel, either. 4) Oh wait-- come to think of it, I suppose they are both angels now, huh? What do you suppose they talk about? :) -Kerry O. |
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Back when he was still Saul of Tarsus, he approved of the stoning of Saint Stephen. There are even some historians who say that Paul's imprisonment was in retribution for having had a hand in the murders of the same Christians he later identified with. Whose to say that his sudden conversion on the road to Damascus wasn't a ruse to escape punishment? Or that his legend hasn't been tampered with to insure his martyrdom? Of course, none of this will appear in the Bible-- maybe because it's alleged that Paul was the author of much of the NT? Either way, it's also pretty difficult to ignore his flip-flopping from zealous Jew to a his later stance that the Jews were the Christ-killers. Paul was executed some 30 years after Stephen was murdered. He wasn't punished for that. Paul was a changed man and his crimes (they weren't crimes under Jewish law!!!!) were committed before he became a Christian. It's interesting that you use a Jew (Saul, before his conversion) to call Christians militant. Saul converted to Christianity shortly after Stephen was murdered, so your history is way off. Jeffrey Dahmer was also a 'changed man' via his prison conversion and if certain Christian Evangelicals are to be believed, is spending his days in his own mansion walking streets of gold. Not that I believe he is, but it illustrates the point that religionists care more about their dogmas and doctrines than they do justice. -Kerry O. |
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And isn't it funny how the 'chosen' people dipped their toes in the sin of idolatry, but instead of being slaughtered, got 40 years of being LIVING nomads? You've never read the Bible, if you had, you would know the above sentence isn't true. Tired of apologizing for the Midianite slaughter already? Still in denial? :) I believe my words were 'militant religionists'-- I guess it's not too surprising that that was taken to mean _only_ fundamentalist Christians. But if the shoe fits (and there's a whole lotta history, starting with Paul, to chose from to show that it does)... Pray tell, what violent acts were committed by Paul? Back when he was still Saul of Tarsus, he approved of the stoning of Saint Stephen. There are even some historians who say that Paul's imprisonment was in retribution for having had a hand in the murders of the same Christians he later identified with. Whose to say that his sudden conversion on the road to Damascus wasn't a ruse to escape punishment? Or that his legend hasn't been tampered with to insure his martyrdom? Of course, none of this will appear in the Bible-- maybe because it's alleged that Paul was the author of much of the NT? Either way, it's also pretty difficult to ignore his flip-flopping from zealous Jew to a his later stance that the Jews were the Christ-killers. -Kerry O. |
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And what did the Midianite children do that merited OT Fundy God ordering them slain by Moses? Worship the same Gods their parents did? Who else would they be worshipping and how could they, being children with profound bonds to their biological parents, possibly know that the God of Moses would see this as a capital crime? The parents lives were so morally reprehensible, that God felt the need to kill all of them and wipe their civilization off the earth. The children received a quick death, while their souls were morally neutral, it's a better outcome in the long run than living could have offered. Aren't you forgetting the female virgins, who were given to Moses' tribe to serve as 'slaves'? I guess the male virgins didn't have what Moses' men needed, so they killed them? Gee, nothing morally reprehensible about that, eh? What's really fascinating about the Midianite story is that some Christian historians will claim that the slaughter never _really_ happened, that it, too, was some kind of metaphor in the same breath that they declare the Bible to be literal and exclusively true. -Kerry O. |
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Mankind's relationship with God was changed by Adam and Eve. God frequently punished an entire society, when the whole society were steeped in sin. Adam represented all men and Eve represented all women. If the Bible is true, there WAS no mankind before Adam and Eve. And isn't it funny how the 'chosen' people dipped their toes in the sin of idolatry, but instead of being slaughtered, got 40 years of being LIVING nomads? But you know what they say-- it's the victors who write the histories (usually in the blood of the vanquished, but who's counting). Is the plan to repeatedly accuse Christians of being violent, until it finally happens? I believe my words were 'militant religionists'-- I guess it's not too surprising that that was taken to mean _only_ fundamentalist Christians. But if the shoe fits (and there's a whole lotta history, starting with Paul, to chose from to show that it does)... -Kerry O. |
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Deuteronomy 24:16 (King James Version) 16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Ezekiel 18:20 (King James Version) 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. You should read more on a subject before you post. "Sins of the father" means that the children of the wicked grow up doing the same things, not that they are punished for someone else's sin. It's a very simple concept if you actually read the Bible. And what did the Midianite children do that merited OT Fundy God ordering them slain by Moses? Worship the same Gods their parents did? Who else would they be worshipping and how could they, being children with profound bonds to their biological parents, possibly know that the God of Moses would see this as a capital crime? Cloaking flawed reasoning in Holy Writ to justify the unjustifiable killing of childern doesn't make it any less flawed or morally reprehensible. With this sort of foundation, is it any wonder that rational Unbelievers have pronounced this religion, quite literally, unbelievable? See no Evil, Hear No Evil, Never Speak Anything But the Party Line (even when it is itself, Evil). -Kerry O. |
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To use an allegory or parable means that since that moment the interpretation of the truth becomes just an assumption hence - misunderstanding or many wrong and different ideas , the base of argue and endless debates. There is no 1 serious reason to be use allegories and parables in such so important for all humans resources like bible and other holy books if they have been given to guide our life. Hence we can say that all this is not by God given books but Israelites writers' ideas and concepts abt the God and life. Allegory's serve many purposes. 1) It makes difficult concepts easier to understand. 2) It makes a concept more portable from one culture / language to another. For God to reach as many people as possible with his Word, the allegory is a God-send, if you'll pardon the pun. Does it matter if the serpent is a snake or an angel? That's missing the point of the story. The relationship between Man and God changed when Adam and Eve brought about the fall. No, they are God-sends to apologists who use them to put pretty wrapping paper around the contradictions and misinformation they are peddling. But here's an allegory for you-- given that Adam was the alleged father of the human race, what sort of Frontier Justice is it that allows your God lay the sins of the father upon the 'sons'? If a secular judge tried to do that, he'd be tarred and feathered. Yet when God-as-sock-puppet-judge does it, his followers excuse it as his perogative. But what's usually Really Going On Here is that it's used by the religionists to mete out punishments to People We Don't Like. Wrap it up in parable and allegory and Viola! Frontier Justice becomes Divine Justice for the militant religionists who feel only they have the franchise to dispense justice. The story of the Midianites is a PERFECT example of Frontier Justice gone wild under the cloak of Divine Justice. -Kerry O. |
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