Topic: The Three Trillion-Dollar War
madisonman's photo
Mon 02/25/08 07:13 PM
Fake Letter From Soldier In Iraq Was Desperate PR Move

by Randolph T. Holhut


Army following White House lead in PR campaign to convince Americans to stay the course on Iraq

(AR) -- If the ongoing U.S. occupation of Iraq has been such a success, why does the Bush administration need to manufacture good news about it?
Because things haven't been going well in Iraq, and the Bush administration knows that the American people know this. That's why the Bush team has cranked up the propaganda campaign to replace the daily reality of chaos and carnage in Iraq with a fantasy image of peace and security.

You may have read about the recent letter-writing campaign by U.S. soldiers in Iraq. Letters were sent to U.S. newspapers by members of the 2nd Battalion of the 503rd Airborne Infantry Regiment. Those letters touted their successes in restoring order in the northern Iraq city of Kirkuk, where the unit is stationed.

Nothing wrong with that, except that the wording of the letters was found to be identical. At least 11 U.S. newspapers, according to the Gannett News Service, printed the form letter.

"The quality of life and security for the citizens has been largely restored, and we are a large part of why that has happened," the letter reads. "The majority of the city has welcomed our presence with open arms."

The above paragraph may be subject to debate, but what isn't debatable is that those words were not written by front-line soldiers, but by the staff of the 503rd's battalion commander.

Lt. Col. Dominic Caraccilo told ABC News that the letter campaign was his idea. He decided to circulate the form letter, written by his staff, to members of the battalion to read and sign if chose to do so.

Caraccilo said the letter "perfectly reflects what each of these brave soldiers has and continues to accomplish on the ground" and that he circulated the letter to give his troops "an opportunity to let their respective hometowns know what they are accomplishing here in Kirkuk."

As of this writing, we don't know exactly how many soldiers participated in this public relations exercise or how truly voluntary it was. What we do know is that this was a classic case of what's known in the PR trade as "astroturf" lobbying.

The phrase, first coined by former Senator and Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen, describes something that appears to the untrained eye to look like a spontaneous "grassroots" political movement, but is in reality something that has been concocted and stage managed by a lobbying or public relations firm to influence public opinion on an issue.

"Astroturfing" has been a staple of politics since the 1970s. Virtually every PR and lobbying shop in Washington does it on behalf of their corporate clients and special interest groups to dress up odious public policy in the cloak of "grassroots" support. What is unusual is that the Army has to resort to this sort of manipulation of public opinion.

But the Army is merely following the lead of its civilian leaders, which recently embarked on a PR campaign to convince Americans to stay the course on Iraq.

In the face of the growing perception that the cost in blood and treasure of the Iraq occupation has become too high, the Bush administration has been forced to not only defend its decision to invade Iraq, but to also face the reality that the occupation isn't going to be as painless as first advertised.

Recent speeches by President Bush, Vice President **** Cheney and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice are all part of this campaign to convince us that the U.S. is not stuck in a quagmire in Iraq, that progress is being made in improving the security situation, and that Iraq will eventually end up being a model of democracy for the rest of the Middle East.

The reality of what's happening in Iraq -- the daily guerrilla attacks, the scores of dead and wounded U.S. soldiers, the estimated 500 murders a month in Baghdad alone, just for starters -- mocks the rosy picture that the Bush administration is trying to push at us.

Take the $87 billion that President Bush now seeks for the occupation and reconstruction of Iraq. That sum is greater than the entire proposed fiscal 2004 budget for the Department of Health and Human Services ($66 billion) or the Department of Education ($53 billion). It's greater than the amount that's needed to meet the projected indebtedness in fiscal 2004 for all 50 states ($78 billion). It's even greater than the amount we spend on homeland security ($36 billion).

Considering the myriad of social and economic problems in our own country, many Americans believe it's wrong to be laying out this kind of money to fix the mess that the Bush administration created in Iraq while totally ignoring our needs at home to pay for big tax breaks for the rich. No amount of spin can change this fact.

After six months, things in Iraq are still a mess. Granted, it would be unrealistic to expect normality to quickly return to a place that has been devastated by two wars and more than a decade of economic sanctions. But it is clear that much still needs to be done and that the U.S. hasn't got the resources to do it alone.

President Bush needs to face the truth about Iraq. A concerted international reconstruction effort, combined with a orderly timetable for the withdrawal of U.S. forces and the restoration of Iraqi sovereignty, is what's needed now. Spin and hype is not going to cut it.






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http://www.albionmonitor.com/0310a/iraqprletter.html

armydoc4u's photo
Mon 02/25/08 07:13 PM
"sorry your wasteing your life over there bro but its not my fault" first, Im not wasting my life "bro", Im helping- believe this or not, the very people whom you would continue to see slaughter by saddam and his boys while passively sitting idley by writing a song or coloring in a book.


According to the Washington Post:

To better understand the difficulty of the fighting in Iraq, consider not just the current body count but the combat intensity of previous wars. During World War II, the United States lost an average of 300 military personnel per day. The daily figure in Vietnam was about 15. Compared with two per day so far in Iraq, the daily grinds of those earlier conflicts were worse than what our forces are currently experiencing.

On the other hand, improved body armor, field medical procedures and medevac capabilities are allowing wounded soldiers to survive injuries that would have killed them in earlier wars. In World War II there were 1.7 wounded for every fatality, and 2.6 in Vietnam; in Iraq the ratio of wounded to killed is 7.6. This means that if our wounded today had the same chances of survival as their fathers did in Vietnam, we would probably now have more than 3,500 deaths in the Iraq war.


Moreover, we fought those wars with much larger militaries than we currently field. The United States had 12 million active-duty personnel at the end of World War II and 3.5 million at the height of the Vietnam War, compared with just 1.4 million today. Adjusted for the size of the armed forces, the average daily number of killed and wounded was 4.8 times as many in World War II than in Iraq, but it was only 0.25 times greater in Vietnam -- or one-fourth more.
In other words, while the absolute numbers make it appear as though things are much better in Iraq than they were in Vietnam or WWII, the relative numbers — numbers that take into account the ways in which things have improved in terms of saving lives — tell a much different story. Yes, things are still better, but not by nearly as much as people say.

Thus, the mission for soldiers in Iraq is nearly as difficult as the mission was for soldiers in Vietnam. In that earlier war, however, the enemy had "the support and patronage of a superpower such as the Soviet Union," not to mention artillery and armor.




Dragon- never justed the news media in the first place, having said that- the numbers in here are scued at best and a misrepresentation of the facts, further more it is a piece that says the variables are x and y, when they are probably more along the lines of a and b.

was it harder to jump into d day than doing what we are doing, yeah i would say it was. was fighting the VC harder because they were backed by the soviets and the chinese and had armor and artillary etc.... no probably not, insurgents are financed or backed by iranians and syrians and anybody else in the region you want to name... they have armor, machine guns, artillary too.

one of the numbers abover said probably 3,500 killed, i think you ment to say 35,000.... in which case the numbers would still not be near the 58,000 lost during vietnam. and even at that ratio the wounded to dead figures you list are incorrect as well(or they listed) look up how many wounded we have, then look up how many KIA's we have, do your own research- maybe next time you will think twice before believing so blindly a rag like the post.

better medical care and evac times, yes i agree has saved countless lives, not apologizing for not dying.

what I will say about the 'this war isnt as hard as the others" comment,,,,, yeah BS! yes we do ot have major battlefields drawn out on a map- that would be easier, the whole country is a battlefield if you want to base it off of where the enemey has the potential to meet coalition forces at. There are good days, there are bad days, for the most part the stress level is always up, there is no going into town to the local bar for R and R like in the other wars you mentioned, there is no going to the local whorehouses like the other wars you mentioned, there is no unit conhesion like in the past either, units are thrown together for a year then basically disbanded, you never go to war with the same group of guys as before- thats harder sweetheart, but it takes someone who lives it to understand it- keep reading your papers tho, it gives me something to write about!

armydoc4u's photo
Mon 02/25/08 07:23 PM
Thanks Jess- yeah I got a tuna sandwhich with pickles and tomatoes- fresh one it was nice.. hahahaha



“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks
Iraq Body CountDocumented civilian deaths from violence
81,525 – 88,991





only 88,000 geeze, thats not bad at all, i wonder how many we killed of that number and how many the insurgents did. And for the record as previously stated by someone unless your at every morgue (which they dont always get to) or at every cemetary to do an actual body count then those numbers are scued as well.

I kept a body count by the way. Mine- my body is intact, count it, 1, 1 body. ten fingers ten toes, two operations to fix some torn and broken bones and tendons but im good still kickin.

so back to the body count, how many people died today in the US by drunken drivers? probably more than you think. you can narrow it down how many were illegal aliens? narrow it down further, how many were liberal college professors having affairs with coeds?

oh oh oh , i know, body count, how many people today in american died for no other reason than driving down the highway, more people will die this month in the US on the higways and byways than have died in the entire iraq war.

us dept of trans. look it up, research really is key if you really want to know what is going on, and im not talking about reading a quote off an article someone wrote, im talking about hard facts.

armydoc4u's photo
Mon 02/25/08 07:26 PM
okay thanks fo rthe fun and entertainment, im off to see the wizard now, he's got my brain in a basket. hahaha. see you all on the flip.


peace, pieces and tidbits,

doc

Troubled's photo
Mon 02/25/08 07:33 PM
Let's not loose sight of the technology advancements between WWII and Iraq. I look at armaments we have now compared to what we had in Viet Nam and I just shake my head. We did one tour. more if we CHOSE to. Our guys are doing 3 and 4 tours. Any one that says this war is easier is either delusional at best to an ignorant Ass at worst. Any way thanx Doc..SemperFi

no photo
Tue 02/26/08 11:16 AM


thats not at all what the returning vets are saying. Ill believe them over you so called source.... they were there. This doom gloom pull out now mentality is simply based on flawed media reports like this one.


Is it possible the numbers came from body counts, and first hand information, from credible sources, THAT WERE THERE ALSO?

Just remotely possible????

nope. not possible with the liberal/ commie news media. its amazing to me what i hear on the news, as opposed to what the troops who were there are saying. you would think someone is at another war.

Dragoness's photo
Tue 02/26/08 11:42 AM
IVAW Updates
Fort Hood soldiers breaking the silence in war in Iraq


Soldiers at Ft. Hood who recently returned from Iraq have organized IVAW's fourth Active Duty chapter, and they're reaching out to their brothers and sisters in the military.

News 8 Austin carried this report on February 17th: "A growing number of active duty soldiers or recent Iraq war veterans are speaking up about the war in Iraq.

And with the number of soldiers speaking up about their experiences in Iraq via online forums, blogs and pamphlets, some vets feel it's their duty to let the American public know the truth.

"The honest truth is that if the American people knew what was going on over there everyday, they would be raising their voices too. They would be saying, 'Hey, bring those guys home," Sgt. Selena Coppa said.

Coppa blames lawmakers in Washington for filtering the facts on the war in Iraq. She said there's no real end in sight.

"There is a cost to this war. This war is being paid in American blood, in my soldier's blood. And that is not okay," Coppa said.

"We lost really good friends, really good leaders who died in Iraq. From my perspective, it didn't make any sense, we didn't
accomplish anything, and I talked to a lot of other soldiers who feel the same way," Fort Hood soldier Casey Porter said."


Dragoness's photo
Tue 02/26/08 11:47 AM
IRAQ VETERANS AGAINST WAR

Why we're against the war
Q: Why are veterans, active duty, and National Guard men and women opposed to the war in Iraq?

A: Here are 10 reasons we oppose this war:

The Iraq war is based on lies and deception.
The Bush Administration planned for an attack against Iraq before September 11th, 2001. They used the false pretense of an imminent nuclear, chemical and biological weapons threat to deceive Congress into rationalizing this unnecessary conflict. They hide our casualties of war by banning the filming of our fallen's caskets when they arrive home, and when they refuse to allow the media into Walter Reed Hospital and other Veterans Administration facilities which are overflowing with maimed and traumatized veterans.
For further reading: www.motherjones.com/bush_war_timeline/index.html

The Iraq war violates international law.
The United States assaulted and occupied Iraq without the consent of the UN Security Council. In doing so they violated the same body of laws they accused Iraq of breaching.
For further reading:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/imtconst.htm
http://www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org/

Corporate profiteering is driving the war in Iraq.
From privately contracted soldiers and linguists to no-bid reconstruction contracts and multinational oil negotiations, those who benefit the most in this conflict are those who suffer the least. The United States has chosen a path that directly contradicts President Eisenhower's farewell warning regarding the military industrial complex. As long as those in power are not held accountable, they will continue...
For further reading:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0714-01.htm
http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/

Overwhelming civilian casualties are a daily occurrence in Iraq.
Despite attempts in training and technological sophistication, large-scale civilian death is both a direct and indirect result of United States aggression in Iraq. Even the most conservative estimates of Iraqi civilian deaths number over 100,000. Currently over 100 civilians die every day in Baghdad alone.For further reading:
http://www.nomorevictims.org/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70A1EF73C5A0C758DDDA10894DE404482

Soldiers have the right to refuse illegal war.
All in service to this country swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. However, they are prosecuted if they object to serve in a war they see as illegal under our Constitution. As such, our brothers and sisters are paying the price for political incompetence, forced to fight in a war instead of having been sufficiently trained to carry out the task of nation-building.
For further reading:
http://thankyoult.live.radicaldesigns.org/content/view/172/
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qa6ZHYcG_EM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1dAXQeH7y9g&mode=related&search=
http://girights.objector.org

Service members are facing serious health consequences due to our Government's negligence.
Many of our troops have already been deployed to Iraq for two, three, and even four tours of duty averaging eleven months each. Combat stress, exhaustion, and bearing witness to the horrors of war contribute to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), a serious set of symptoms that can lead to depression, illness, violent behavior, and even suicide. Additionally, depleted uranium, Lariam, insufficient body armor and infectious diseases are just a few of the health risks which accompany an immorally planned and incompetently executed war. Finally, upon a soldier's release, the Veterans Administration is far too under-funded to fully deal with the magnitude of veterans in need.
For further reading:
http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/
http://www.vets4vets.us/

The war in Iraq is tearing our families apart.
The use of stop-loss on active duty troops and the unnecessarily lengthy and repeat active tours by Guard and Reserve troops place enough strain on our military families, even without being forced to sacrifice their loved ones for this ongoing political experiment in the Middle East.
For further reading: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_loss_092704,00.html

The Iraq war is robbing us of funding sorely needed here at home.
$5.8 billion per month is spent on a war which could have aided the victims of Hurricane Katrina, gone to impoverished schools, the construction of hospitals and health care systems, tax cut initiatives, and a host of domestic programs that have all been gutted in the wake of the war in Iraq.
For further reading:
http://www.costofwar.com

The war dehumanizes Iraqis and denies them their right to self-determination.
Iraqis are subjected to humiliating and violent checkpoints, searches and home raids on a daily basis. The current Iraqi government is in place solely because of the U.S. military occupation. The Iraqi government doesn’t have the popular support of the Iraqi people, nor does it have power or authority. For many Iraqis the current government is seen as a puppet regime for the U.S. occupation. It is undemocratic and in violation of Iraq’s own right to self-governance.
For further reading:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

Our military is being exhausted by repeated deployments, involuntary extensions, and activations of the Reserve and National Guard.
The majority of troops in Iraq right now are there for at least their second tour. Deployments to Iraq are becoming longer and many of our service members are facing involuntary extensions and recalls to active duty. Longstanding policies to limit the duration and frequency of deployments for our part-time National Guard troops are now being overturned to allow for repeated, back-to-back tours in Iraq. These repeated, extended combat tours are taking a huge toll on our troops, their families, and their communities.
For further reading:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-military12jan12,0,7198945.story?coll=la-home-headlines




Q: Why do Iraq Veterans Against the War call for the immediate withdrawal from Iraq?

A: There are several reasons why immediate withdrawal is the critical first step toward solving the problems in Iraq.

The reasons and rationale given for the invasion were fraudulent.
There were no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq during the time of the invasion according to US officials and former chief UN weapons inspector Hans Blix. The idea that Al Qeada and the 9/11 terrorist attacks were connected to Saddam Hussein and the Baath party were proven false in the 9/11 Commission Report. Members of the Bush Administration have admitted that they “misspoke” in the run up to the war.


The presence of the US military is not preventing sectarian violence.
The US occupation of Iraq has proven to be unable to prevent sectarian violence and halt an escalation towards a civil war. Despite having an average of 140,000 troops in country since the occupation began, internal violence and attacks against civilians and Iraqi security forces have been on a steady incline.


The occupation is a primary motivation for the insurgency and global religious extremism.
The insurgency can be broken down into many individually named factions with various goals, beliefs, and techniques. However, our membership of veterans believe that the occupation of Iraq is the primary thing encouraging the insurgency and giving it legitimacy in the eyes of many Iraqis. Likewise, other people of the Islamic faith are encouraged to resist America ’s policies internationally based on how they perceive our military operations in the Middle East.


We can no longer afford to fight this war of choice.
The financial burden is destroying our domestic programs that could be used to protect us from natural disasters, provide medical programs, or help improve education. We are jeopardizing the US economy and putting strains on the budgets of important government agencies like the Veterans Affairs Department.


National security is compromised.
Funds that could be used to protect our ports and transportation are being stripped away while our National Guard units are on constant deployments instead of being used to protect and defend us here at home.


The world is becoming more dangerous.
International terrorist attacks have increased and it has become more dangerous for Americans to travel abroad. Approval for US policy has decreased and the dislike of Americans has increased.

Our national “moral authority” is being undermined.
The US has lost credibility to much of the world as the defender of liberty and freedom and our national identity is eroding. We can no longer deploy our armed forces for peace keeping measures with the good faith of the international community. We need to regain the respect and faith of the global community. This begins by withdrawing our troops from Iraq and helping the Iraqi people rebuild their country and society.

The majority of American citizens, Iraqi citizens and US military would like to see an immediate end to the war in Iraq.
If we are truly a democracy and we aim to create a democracy in Iraq our leaders will represent the will of the citizens and lead according to their wishes.


The military is broken.
We are abusing the small population of armed service members with multiple deployments while using inadequate vehicles and equipment. Less than one half of a percent of the American population is serving in the active armed forces, which is the least amount in the last century. Only 25% of the troops in Iraq are there for their first tour, while 50% are there on their second tour, and the remaining 25% are there three times or more. We continue to involuntarily extend soldiers with Stop-Loss, recall them repeatedly for additional service using the Individual Ready Reserve, and send soldiers with diagnosed medical problems into combat.

Dragoness's photo
Tue 02/26/08 11:56 AM
I have nothing against soldiers and they doing the duty they are given. I am thankful that they are willing to put their lives on the line for this country daily.

My issues lie with the originator of this illegal war. Baby shrub is the initiator of this abomination of a retribution for 9/11.

No soldier should be held personally responsible for the mistakes of the administration.

Drivinmenutz's photo
Tue 02/26/08 02:50 PM
so what should be done then? How should we deal with our current situation to make it better and not let it get worse? What do you think would happen in we tucked tail and ran back home? What do you think would happen to iraqis in shot and long run? How would it affect us in the short and long run? What do you think it would do to public opinion (that is already tarnished)? How, my friends, tactically would you prevent further damage from being done?

no photo
Tue 02/26/08 02:52 PM

so what should be done then? How should we deal with our current situation to make it better and not let it get worse? What do you think would happen in we tucked tail and ran back home? What do you think would happen to iraqis in shot and long run? How would it affect us in the short and long run? What do you think it would do to public opinion (that is already tarnished)? How, my friends, tactically would you prevent further damage from being done?


that's an easy answer...they'd be bashing Bush for not attacking when he had the chance and now having to fight the war in the US....

Dragoness's photo
Tue 02/26/08 06:58 PM


so what should be done then? How should we deal with our current situation to make it better and not let it get worse? What do you think would happen in we tucked tail and ran back home? What do you think would happen to iraqis in shot and long run? How would it affect us in the short and long run? What do you think it would do to public opinion (that is already tarnished)? How, my friends, tactically would you prevent further damage from being done?


that's an easy answer...they'd be bashing Bush for not attacking when he had the chance and now having to fight the war in the US....


That is also a brainwash everyone bought, that the war was coming here.laugh We could have stopped 9/11 from happening had we just been vigilant in our watching the intel and watching for suspicious activity. After 9/11 there was no way in hell that anyone was going to get by us for another attack. I would like to know how you logic that "we either fight them there or here"???? It is bull. They cannot reach us here if we are as watchful as we should be.

And besides that, how many other countries get a terrorist hit at home and march off to war with a country that did not do the attack??? So are we smarter than they are or does it make us wrong???

Dragoness's photo
Tue 02/26/08 07:13 PM

so what should be done then? How should we deal with our current situation to make it better and not let it get worse? What do you think would happen in we tucked tail and ran back home? What do you think would happen to iraqis in shot and long run? How would it affect us in the short and long run? What do you think it would do to public opinion (that is already tarnished)? How, my friends, tactically would you prevent further damage from being done?


I do not buy the acceptance that we have to be there in order for them to act right. I do not buy that Iraq was ever going to be a major dent in terrorist activity. I do not buy the fact that we have a right to democricize a nation that did not ask that of us.

Let them know that our job is done (even though we really had no business doing the job from get but that is another whole discussion) Begin pulling out the troops. Allowing them to resolve their disputes. It is not going to be to our standards either way. Their lifestyle and religious fervor is going to cause them to conflict anyway. We should not be a third or fourth party to it. They need to resolve it.

We caused the problems they are going to have. Saddam for all his faults was the regulator there. Unless we want to take his job (which is what we are doing now, with all the killing and such)we are going to have to let the peices fall. I am sure that during our civil war other countries looked on in horror as we killed ourselves but it was our conflict. We resolved it. So will these people.

armydoc4u's photo
Tue 02/26/08 09:16 PM


so what should be done then? How should we deal with our current situation to make it better and not let it get worse? What do you think would happen in we tucked tail and ran back home? What do you think would happen to iraqis in shot and long run? How would it affect us in the short and long run? What do you think it would do to public opinion (that is already tarnished)? How, my friends, tactically would you prevent further damage from being done?


I do not buy the acceptance that we have to be there in order for them to act right. I do not buy that Iraq was ever going to be a major dent in terrorist activity. I do not buy the fact that we have a right to democricize a nation that did not ask that of us.

Let them know that our job is done (even though we really had no business doing the job from get but that is another whole discussion) Begin pulling out the troops. Allowing them to resolve their disputes. It is not going to be to our standards either way. Their lifestyle and religious fervor is going to cause them to conflict anyway. We should not be a third or fourth party to it. They need to resolve it.

We caused the problems they are going to have. Saddam for all his faults was the regulator there. Unless we want to take his job (which is what we are doing now, with all the killing and such)we are going to have to let the peices fall. I am sure that during our civil war other countries looked on in horror as we killed ourselves but it was our conflict. We resolved it. So will these people.


you know i just thought that you were ill advised at first but this takes the cake lady !!!

saddam with all his faults was the regulator there?

are you for real?

you know i suppose that he is credited for the killing of over two million people, not quite as much as adolph hitler but pretty flippin close, and you would say what,,,, oh he wasnt that bad, he was a regulator? you people with your pretend higher moral values make me ill. you would keep a mass murder in power allowing for more to die and you would do nothing, yet dare to preach to people in here about the legalities of WAR!!! lady you're a real gem in the rough arent you? you and saddam what a team, there is special places for people like him in hell im sure, just as there is a place for people who codone his acts and methods , who stand by and watch when all the had to do was say enough, your an evil person who deserves to die. (saddam not you)

and you need to brush up a little on your history about the civil war, other countrie did in fact help and send supplies and troops, but thats what the new liberal history books want to be rewritten to say then so be it.

Troubled's photo
Tue 02/26/08 10:00 PM

so what should be done then? How should we deal with our current situation to make it better and not let it get worse? What do you think would happen in we tucked tail and ran back home? What do you think would happen to iraqis in shot and long run? How would it affect us in the short and long run? What do you think it would do to public opinion (that is already tarnished)? How, my friends, tactically would you prevent further damage from being done?


The most intelligent thing I've heard on this topic. Big Questions too. #1 We should never tuck tail and run..Ever...But we also need a concrete plan to give these people there country back. No one can GIVE freedom to anyone. No one gave us our freedoms, We made it happen. We need a timeline set up and they need to be aware that when that time comes it's their chicken and they can pluck it any way they want to. #2 Short term we give them the ability to govern themselves. In the long run is not up to us it's THEIR country. And as far as public opinion goes it can't be any worse than it is now. America in my opinion isn't pissed about the war, their pissed about hanging in year after year with no exit plan. The last thing we want is another Viet-Nam. I am a 24 yea retired Jarhead, I was in Nam and I was in desert storm, Ive paid attention cause that was my job. If it looks like dog*** and it smells like dog**** chances are.....

mnhiker's photo
Tue 02/26/08 10:31 PM


so what should be done then? How should we deal with our current situation to make it better and not let it get worse? What do you think would happen in we tucked tail and ran back home? What do you think would happen to iraqis in shot and long run? How would it affect us in the short and long run? What do you think it would do to public opinion (that is already tarnished)? How, my friends, tactically would you prevent further damage from being done?


The most intelligent thing I've heard on this topic. Big Questions too. #1 We should never tuck tail and run..Ever...But we also need a concrete plan to give these people there country back. No one can GIVE freedom to anyone. No one gave us our freedoms, We made it happen. We need a timeline set up and they need to be aware that when that time comes it's their chicken and they can pluck it any way they want to. #2 Short term we give them the ability to govern themselves. In the long run is not up to us it's THEIR country. And as far as public opinion goes it can't be any worse than it is now. America in my opinion isn't pissed about the war, their pissed about hanging in year after year with no exit plan. The last thing we want is another Viet-Nam. I am a 24 yea retired Jarhead, I was in Nam and I was in desert storm, Ive paid attention cause that was my job. If it looks like dog*** and it smells like dog**** chances are.....


Right. It's folly to remain in Iraq without a timetable and exit plan. The Iraqis have to step up to the plate and settle their differences or they'll never have the united country they want, just endless civil war and strife.

And they can't lean on us forever.

How do we do that? The devil is in the details.

armydoc4u's photo
Tue 02/26/08 10:47 PM
ok, heres a shocker from Doc.....

start pulling out troops. there i said it.

out of the approximately 150000 US troops in iraq, only a small portion are actually combat troops or will ever see combat...that free people, Im giving pearls here. those troops are the support personnel. they have a mariet of jobs that range from stupid crap to important crap. pull all the stupid crap people out. that will bring hom about 50000 people. seriously. their just there pi$$ing off those of us who fight.

they get uso tours, they have nice gyms and cafeterias, not to mention little PX's or stores that real combat soldiers rarely have the time or position to see.

there is a lot of waste in that regard there... oh we have to make people comfortable, give them all the eminities of home... screw that, and screw the non ground pounders too. it is war, war isnt fought from a couch....but the generals are trying to eliviate all this fraudulent crap called ptsd that every tom dik and harry seem to be getting from the comfort of an air conditioned office in the middle of baghdad.

i met a guy when i was going thru kuwait who was on a suicide watch because of "ptsd" he had never left kuwait.... i asked him what made him snap, this little moron said because they ran out of Xboxes at the px.... i couldnt believe my ears, i just got up and left, screw him to.


so, eliminate the non essentials, then start drawing down everyone else,,,, what a lot of people fail to realize is that an iraqi will let you do all the heavy lifting as long as your willing to lift it, if you stand aside and I mean way aside and tell him your thru and it wont get done unless he does it, then the lazy little twerp will actually do something. seen it on the battlefield when we were working with the Iraqi army,,,, it was always us us us, then one day they asked if we would do something stupid, i forget what it was but at the time, the commander said hell no... would you believe they went and did it for themselves.....

so yea, i think there is still a lot of work there to be done, i think they can do most of it, i dont think pulling out some soldiers will put more in jepoardy, hell the ones who fight arent around those that dont anyway.

but hey what do i know, im a peeon

Troubled's photo
Tue 02/26/08 10:48 PM



so what should be done then? How should we deal with our current situation to make it better and not let it get worse? What do you think would happen in we tucked tail and ran back home? What do you think would happen to iraqis in shot and long run? How would it affect us in the short and long run? What do you think it would do to public opinion (that is already tarnished)? How, my friends, tactically would you prevent further damage from being done?


The most intelligent thing I've heard on this topic. Big Questions too. #1 We should never tuck tail and run..Ever...But we also need a concrete plan to give these people there country back. No one can GIVE freedom to anyone. No one gave us our freedoms, We made it happen. We need a timeline set up and they need to be aware that when that time comes it's their chicken and they can pluck it any way they want to. #2 Short term we give them the ability to govern themselves. In the long run is not up to us it's THEIR country. And as far as public opinion goes it can't be any worse than it is now. America in my opinion isn't pissed about the war, their pissed about hanging in year after year with no exit plan. The last thing we want is another Viet-Nam. I am a 24 yea retired Jarhead, I was in Nam and I was in desert storm, Ive paid attention cause that was my job. If it looks like dog*** and it smells like dog**** chances are.....


Right. It's folly to remain in Iraq without a timetable and exit plan. The Iraqis have to step up to the plate and settle their differences or they'll never have the united country they want, just endless civil war and strife.

And they can't lean on us forever.

How do we do that? The devil is in the details.


Seems to me that we have three parties in America. Democrats,Republicans and Americans, WE THE PEOPLE. We need to send a message to our Government that we are Tired of their Bull****. We need to get up off our whiny, complacent poor me asses get proactive and let these yackoffs know how we feel. It's OUR country. If ya gotta vote independent then vote independant, Send the message It took a long time to turn our country in to what it is and we are not gonna change it over night but damn we have to START somewhere. I don't know the answer but I'm gettin tired of the status quo. I love my country but I fear my Government.

Troubled's photo
Tue 02/26/08 10:55 PM

ok, heres a shocker from Doc.....

start pulling out troops. there i said it.

out of the approximately 150000 US troops in iraq, only a small portion are actually combat troops or will ever see combat...that free people, Im giving pearls here. those troops are the support personnel. they have a mariet of jobs that range from stupid crap to important crap. pull all the stupid crap people out. that will bring hom about 50000 people. seriously. their just there pi$$ing off those of us who fight.

they get uso tours, they have nice gyms and cafeterias, not to mention little PX's or stores that real combat soldiers rarely have the time or position to see.

there is a lot of waste in that regard there... oh we have to make people comfortable, give them all the eminities of home... screw that, and screw the non ground pounders too. it is war, war isnt fought from a couch....but the generals are trying to eliviate all this fraudulent crap called ptsd that every tom dik and harry seem to be getting from the comfort of an air conditioned office in the middle of baghdad.

i met a guy when i was going thru kuwait who was on a suicide watch because of "ptsd" he had never left kuwait.... i asked him what made him snap, this little moron said because they ran out of Xboxes at the px.... i couldnt believe my ears, i just got up and left, screw him to.


so, eliminate the non essentials, then start drawing down everyone else,,,, what a lot of people fail to realize is that an iraqi will let you do all the heavy lifting as long as your willing to lift it, if you stand aside and I mean way aside and tell him your thru and it wont get done unless he does it, then the lazy little twerp will actually do something. seen it on the battlefield when we were working with the Iraqi army,,,, it was always us us us, then one day they asked if we would do something stupid, i forget what it was but at the time, the commander said hell no... would you believe they went and did it for themselves.....

so yea, i think there is still a lot of work there to be done, i think they can do most of it, i dont think pulling out some soldiers will put more in jepoardy, hell the ones who fight arent around those that dont anyway.

but hey what do i know, im a peeon



It just keeps getting betterdrinker drinker drinker drinker drinker drinker drinker

Drivinmenutz's photo
Tue 02/26/08 11:05 PM
Edited by Drivinmenutz on Tue 02/26/08 11:05 PM

ok, heres a shocker from Doc.....

start pulling out troops. there i said it.

out of the approximately 150000 US troops in iraq, only a small portion are actually combat troops or will ever see combat...that free people, Im giving pearls here. those troops are the support personnel. they have a mariet of jobs that range from stupid crap to important crap. pull all the stupid crap people out. that will bring hom about 50000 people. seriously. their just there pi$$ing off those of us who fight.

they get uso tours, they have nice gyms and cafeterias, not to mention little PX's or stores that real combat soldiers rarely have the time or position to see.

there is a lot of waste in that regard there... oh we have to make people comfortable, give them all the eminities of home... screw that, and screw the non ground pounders too. it is war, war isnt fought from a couch....but the generals are trying to eliviate all this fraudulent crap called ptsd that every tom dik and harry seem to be getting from the comfort of an air conditioned office in the middle of baghdad.

i met a guy when i was going thru kuwait who was on a suicide watch because of "ptsd" he had never left kuwait.... i asked him what made him snap, this little moron said because they ran out of Xboxes at the px.... i couldnt believe my ears, i just got up and left, screw him to.


so, eliminate the non essentials, then start drawing down everyone else,,,, what a lot of people fail to realize is that an iraqi will let you do all the heavy lifting as long as your willing to lift it, if you stand aside and I mean way aside and tell him your thru and it wont get done unless he does it, then the lazy little twerp will actually do something. seen it on the battlefield when we were working with the Iraqi army,,,, it was always us us us, then one day they asked if we would do something stupid, i forget what it was but at the time, the commander said hell no... would you believe they went and did it for themselves.....

so yea, i think there is still a lot of work there to be done, i think they can do most of it, i dont think pulling out some soldiers will put more in jepoardy, hell the ones who fight arent around those that dont anyway.

but hey what do i know, im a peeon



you bring up some very good points there doc. never under underestimate the power of a thinking "Joe"drinker

Troubled you are right. We do need to do something to send a message to Washington. "People should never fear their government, their government should fear the people" - V