Agreed Abra That is what I thought I did was take out the "reasons" for all the negative connotations to religion. Freeing the mind to become what it can be.

I really can't see where religion binds people or thought processes. Call me naive but was our morals dreamed up? We were raised in a country founded on religious beliefs and thus were our laws derived from; like it or not. It's been our turning away from GOD that has caused this deteriation. I would like to know what country or civilization acquired it's power or pretige without the source of worship of some kind of diety.

I guess I'm not winning any points for my side but knowing people and where they stand in all of this personafies their character. We need to know who is Mother Theresa and who is Adolf Hitler and not wait till they are gone to realize the outcome.
People speak of not judging but it goes on every day; courts, traffic, work all aspects of life whether we can identify or not, has some form of judgement. Morals did not come from under a rock....give me a break.

Hmmm... So, what I hear is this.
Despite scripture being very clear on the subject... It is OK for you to stand in judgment? It is allowable for you to do God's work? Is this something particular to you alone? Or can other Christians partake in this practice too?
Either way? Somehow you have managed to take a significant step away from one of the base aspects of your belief! So what does that make you? Less then Christian? Super Christian?

Muddying the water by explaining it is no different then what happens in a court... is really a pretty lame argument. You are old enough to know the fundamental difference without having someone explain it to you.

That’s key right there ,… some form.

All decisions are not moral judgments.

For example, you might decide that you don’t like to be around certain people maybe because of the things like to do, or maybe because you don’t care for their mannerisms or whatever. That doesn’t mean that you’ve passed moral judgment on them. All it means is that you don’t enjoy their company.

All decisions, (or “judgments” of this nature) are not moral judgments. You have every right to “judge” whether or not you’d like to partake in particular situations and/or befriend specific individuals. That has nothing at all to do with morally judging people.

There are plenty of people I avoid all the time. Maybe they simple talk continually and never listen. Maybe they are always drinking and have alcohol on their breath all the time. I even avoid being around smokers whenever possible. I don’t like being around obnoxious people who tell stupid jokes and slobber food on their T-shirts laughing at themselves.

There are a lot of people I prefer not to be around. But I’m not passing any moral judgments on them. I just avoid them because I don’t enjoy wasting my time, and I consider their company to be a waste of time. That may be a “judgment”, but it’s not a moral judgment. I’m not saying that they are bad or immoral people. All I’m saying is that I’d rather not be around them.

You really need to realize that all decisions you make are not moral judgments.

Now if you start wishing those people ill-will, then you’re getting into a whole differnet ball-game. But to just decide that you’re rather remove yourself from their presence and not invite them to places you plan on going, there’s nothing wrong with that.

There’s no where in any religious doctrine that I’m aware of that says that you need to be best buddies with everyone. You can ‘love’ people from afar. To simply not wish them any ill-will is to love them. You don’t need to run up and hug and kiss them and wipe their dirty-joke slobber all over your nice clean clothes. That’s just not necessary. Just not wishing them ill-will, is fine. That’s all you need to do.

And maybe send them some cash when their house burns down, etc. But you can even do that by mail.

Winning points for your side? Is this a war or a contest? LOL



Allowable to do God's work? Don't you think it is "allowable" for anyone to do God's work? Don't you think God works through all of It manifestations?

I do God's work everyday.

I'm pretty sure..not if you think you are God.

It is for Christianity because they view their God as being at war with Satan. The whole religion is all about a God who will eventually win the war against evil and finally become the recognized ruler of his own creation.




The problem here is that there are different pictures of God. In the Christian view of God, God is a king. He clearly has a human-like ego. He confesses early on that he is a jealous God and he become angry or pleased, etc., based on how people behave. Clearly he is quite emotional and has all the human frailties that go with that.

The Christian God is like a keeper of sheep. The only problem is that he also created the wolves. He supposedly tends his flock and will eventually cast all the wolves into a fiery pit of damnation where they will supposedly suffer for all of eternity for having chosen to be wolves. Then he will heard his obedient sheep (only those who have agree to worship him only and to be eternal servants to his will).

Clearly there will be no free will in heaven because you must agree to be a servant of God and do only his will in order to even get there in the first place. So there can be no free will in heaven. Only the will of God shall be done!

And what is God going to do with all these obedient sheep for the rest of eternity whilst the wolves howl in agony in hell?

This whole picture of God depicts an egotistical entity as being a fascist dictator, and no one know what his ultimate plan even is!

What is he going to do with all those obedient sheep? And they must be perfectly obedient or they won’t be there in the first place, any acknowledgement of self and they will be tossed into the hell-fire with the wolves. After all, Satan was cast out of heaven so being cast out of heaven is clearly possible. It’s clearly not a done deal just because you got there.

Well, that’s just one picture of God. A kind of problematic picture actually, because this picture also states that God always was, and always will be. So clearly he must be doing this sort of thing all the time. The earth can’t have been the first creation, and most certainly won’t be the last either. If God is really picky about his sheep he might only pick a handful of souls from each creation. Billions of souls who thought they would be picked are now howling in an eternal hell-fire.

There is another picture of God. A picture where God is not an ego, and living beings are not truly separate from God. They are all manifestations of God. In this picture there is no heaven or hell. All that exists is God. There’s no need to pass judgments on egos because egos don’t even really exist. They are only an illusion.

So when a pantheist says they are God, they aren’t talking about an all-powerful ego. They are talking about being part of spirit of the universe. They have recognized that they aren’t a separate ego from God, but that instead they are the essence of God manifest in this world. And there can be no arrogance or self-importance in this because when they come to this realization they also realize that all is God. It not any one person, but it’s all that exists.

In this picture God always was and always will be too. But the difference is that eternal life is in the reincarnation of many lives. There’s no need for a ‘perfect heaven’ or an ‘unbearable hell’. Every life is a balance of all possibly experiences. What would there be to ‘strive’ for in heaven? What could be ‘accomplished’? The very idea that something is undone, or needs to be accomplished would imply that heaven is less than ‘prefect’. But that flies in the face of the ‘perfect place’ that it’s supposed to be.

I’m not saying which is true. I honestly don’t know. But if I had to take a guess I would guess the pantheistic view.

In fact, that is my guess.

By the way, there’s no need to be a bad person to be a pantheist. My behavior would certainly qualify for entry into the Christian heaven. However, since I don’t buy into the story I’ll be cast into hell anyway according to that story. So clearly the Christian God must cast good people into hell simply because they didn’t believe the story was true. Seems like all that dying on the cross was for naught since forgiving sins obviously isn’t all that important. It appears that it’s more important to believe in the story than it is to be good.

Religion is not the moral vein of a nation. No matter how much they feel they are. People have brains and can use them to determine morality without a condescending god to beat them down with it.

What are you talking about? Research some of the greatest criminals in history and see how many of them were raised strict to a religion. Man you assume too much value to the teachings of a religion. The religious are too pompous to realize that they are not the moral and ethical guardians of the country. People act morally and ethically all the time and have no religious teachings to tell them that it is right.

I do not believe in god or religion, but I do have morals. My mom did raise me to believe in doing what is right. The hardest part in all of this is that evil is really only what we make it.Doing the wrong thing is generally because it is much easier than doing the right thing.

I don't have a religion to guide me, I have something better. The love of my family, and the hardships my mom endured to raise me as best she could.

The idea of a religion that does not force some god or goddess down your throat, sounds good to me.

Abra I cannot believe if there is a creator of all and his favorite is us humans that he would nit pick about a person not claiming a certain religion. I believe he would look at your motives for the things you do or say and that would be his judgment of us. Motive tell all. Most religious motives are questionable. It is power, control, self righteousness, etc.... all of which are not redeeming motives for what they do and say and how they live.

If there is a heaven Abra you will be there, I know you will

There will not be a heaven or hell due to the judgemental and condescending attitude this creates in the religious.

Check, not so much because of the condescending attitudes it creates but I don't believe in a concept of heaven or hell

There will not be one book of worship to be held in higher standards than all others. Reading all books of worship/or not of worship and deciphering for oneself the personal enlightenment of each will be highly recommended but not a requirement.

Check, We have no set book that we all look too. Knowledge and bettering ourselves through many sources is wanted.

There will be no assumptions that this religion is the moral and ethical control of the nation. Believing all people should actually use their own brain for a point of reference for morality. The main concern recommended here will be to not harm others mentally, emotionally or physically.

Check. We believe that all religions have validity in the people that believe them and it is their path to choose

There will not be a punitive god represented here. Any and all gods of this religion will be loving and supportive of it's followers. Of course, no god is required for this religion. All who choose to have one will not utilize their god to condescend or judge others who choose not to have a god as their idol.

Check. This is a polytheastic(SP) religion where the gods act with each other to help support balance or in some cases the people don't believe in a god persay as much as there being a higher energy out there.

There will not be a preacher as all who are members bring with them their own unique and interesting perspectives so all will be the teachers and the students.

Check. Anyone who has something to teach is welcome to share their knowledge with any who wants to learn.

There will not be collections as this religion will consist of those who help themselves and others at their own discretion and we do not want a "business" of bilking people to ever become an issue.

Check. We have no collections toward anything. All we contribute is knowledge

This will be a free religion that frees the mind to discover it's own soul and creative ability.

Check. Our destiny is our own to make. As long as you are working to better your mind and discover what is in your sould you are doing great.

Again all are free to join, share and express the wonders of humanity and the world we live in.

And Check. Anyone who finds this religion on their soul searching path is accepted.

Man Dragoness, where did you say you were reading about this religion because it sounds like mine down to a T. So yes, I would say that those aspects in a religion sound very great!!

I too live morally and ethically with no problem from the devil either, go figure. I know when I am making a choice that is wrong and I know that my mind will attempt to make it right if I really want to do it. So I use my own brain and make the right choice.

Morality and ethics are pretty basic when you get to the core of them, DO NOT HURT OTHER LIVING THINGS, MENTALLY, EMOTIONALLY PHYSICALLY. That about covers it. Of course we eat other living things so we do hurt them but if we hold it to outside of food then it works really well. No brow beating, no judgement of others lives, most of which is NONE OF OUR DAMN BUSINESS ANYWAY, I do not care about others sex lives as long as it is adult activity.

Follow the laws of the land and never hurt others and you are pretty moral and ethical.

Why would you say she has no moral standards? Are you incapable of coming up with your own moral standards?

They are all from man anyway.

I do not know why so many require someone to tell them to do the right thing.

In any case, Dragoness I believe you might feel at home with Unitarians or possibly Quakers.

Quakers are quite interesting to me. My mother is a quaker and in her society each member (friend) takes turns leading the discussion each week. Friends may or may not be christians but they each find their own way to god. And personal freedom is paramount.

I do not know why so many require someone to tell them to do the right thing.

In any case, Dragoness I believe you might feel at home with Unitarians or possibly Quakers.

Quakers are quite interesting to me. My mother is a quaker and in her society each member (friend) takes turns leading the discussion each week. Friends may or may not be christians but they each find their own way to god. And personal freedom is paramount.

I predict:

If there ever is a "One World Religion" (if you want to call it that) it will be a religions of understanding, knowledge, knowing, connectiveness and LOVE.

Were LOVE is real, that is the "religion."

Dragoness: I was on a visit to New Hampshire about a year ago, and I was asked if I would like to go to a FRIENDS meeting?? I said OK. And near as I could tell it fits the description you put out at the beginning of this section. I guess they are in many places all around the country. In some places they refer to themselves as Quakers , and in some places as FRIENDS. I guess no one is expected to have to agree with any particular teaching except maybe one thing . They all believed in peace ,and were all against war, and all believed in loving your neighbor and tolerating your brothers differences in beliefs. Check into the Friends or Quakers as some call it. I think that is how it should be in this whole world. Then everyone would really be brothers and sisters. I believe they got it right.