Miles,

Thank you for your addition to the above.

If I could add something to this... not only are the separators of "Old Testament" and "New testament" not necessarily "canon" of scripture, neither are the chapter numbers and the verse numbers. The writings inside of each book were modified later on by the inclusion of chapters and verse numbers. These chapters and verse numbers are not in the original, penned manuscripts from Moses and/or Paul and all the rest of the writers.

There is a theology taught in Christianity that Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, so now the Christian need not be bound by the law. Since Jesus was a man of Jewish decent himself, he would have observed the sacrifices himself, as being obedient to the father. He called men to follow him that were of Jewish decent, so there would have been a period of change from observing the law and sacrifices of Moses to this new way, considering that Christ had fulfilled all of the law and sacrifices.

To add to what you said about the history of the belief system... it is rooted in the Jewish faith, not Roman Catholicism. Jesus was a Jew, and fulfilled every prophecy concerning the coming of the Messiah, thus the religion changed into what God had foretold it would become when the Messiah came.

The region where Jesus lived was under the Roman government at the time, not the Roman Catholic church. Constantine was the first confessed Christian ruler, and from history, he confessed this on his death bed. At the time, there became two capitol cities within the Roman Empire. One in Italy, namely Rome, and one known as Constantinople. When the Roman Catholic church did get its start, there was, at one time, also TWO popes, one in Rome, and one in Constantinople.

The original break within the Roman Catholic church system was not the protestant reformation and Martin Luther... it was the church of Constantinople breaking away from Rome. This gave us the Eastern Orthodox churches, which we still have to this day. They are very similar to the current Roman Catholic churches, but they broke off from Rome centuries ago.

Later, (in 1517) because of differences in theology pertaining to at least 95 different reasons, that is when Martin Luther nailed his "95 Theses" or disagreements, on the door of the Roman Catholic church:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/95_Theses

This act of breaking away from the Roman Catholic church (as the wikipedia article puts it) "ultimately gave birth to Protestantism."

You can read more concerning Eastern Orthodoxy and its history here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

Just take into account that Wikipedia is not an absolute perfect source, it is not accepted in college-level study as a bibliographic reference source because anyone at anytime can go in and change the material. It is however, a good general reference.

TM

yes Yahshua was a Jew. The believers were of the 12 actually 13 tribes of Isreal. Taking Ephriam and Manassah into account. James 1 even starts off to the 12 tribes. The Law was not of the Jews never was. Now we have the Northern Kingdom and the Southern consisting of prophesied Jews. Paul said he was half of the tribe of Benjinam. This throwing everybody in as jews has went on for who knows how long after the 1st century.Thier were many many breaks with the catholic church before Martin luther. The Cathors, the Armenians, The Poor men of Lions. The list goes on and on and these breakoffs were just as many believers as martin Luther they just did not have the mentallity Martin Luther had that the Jews were demons from satan. He did his own Inquistition. And Hitler followed his beliefs. But the 11,12,early 1300's are called the dark ages for a reason. Bloodshed ordered by the Pope. Constantine apperently the author in wikipedia does not know his history. Constantine when in a great battle where he was outnumbered said He saw a Cross in the sky that said "with this sign conquer" Killings in the church since then have been in the name of the cross. Just look at all your movies or any history book and you will see the armies carrying a shield with a cross on it and many times thier uniforms also. For at least a 1000 years this cross was used for this pupose to try and justify themselves. It is sick. The cross the messiah was not impaled on. The scriptures call it a tree. No the cross you will see all over eygpt criptoloy for Horus thier g-d. I know i am going futher but you might be interested in how things did play out. When Yahshua was impaled he cried out it is done. The roman soldiers came to break the legs of the 3 because the sabbath was comming and no one accursed is to be hanging on a tree after sunset. The Roman Govenor went out of his way to accomidate the 12 tribes of Israel.Now the question lies why did the soldiers wait so late in the afternoon to break the criminals legs? If they were hanging on a cross they would still live in angony for hours before death breaking the law of taking them down. So why did they break thier legs? For the criminals to suffacate to death quickly. You see they had thier hands or wrists nailed straight above thier head and their feet nailed below them as for them to have to push themselves up to catch a breath of air. Quite tortous. So this idea of a cross was constinanoples. Way before his death. You speak of the arranging of the books. You are right. This also was done at his orderes at the council of Nicea.in 325 ad. He at this time wanted the whole empire to be what we now call chr-stian. but he and over half the people was pagan. He had hundreds of scholars come in to decide how the scriptures were to be laid out and what they said. So he had a problem the believers and the pagans did not have much in common. He decreed that the pagans and the believers religions would be joined at the hip. Pagans sun G-d was celebrated on Dec 25th. So he decreed that Yahshua's was the sun and his birthday would be then..All the holidays except for and it is not always right is pentecost. Which in the law is called the feast of weeks.Then he wanted to make a distinct division between the Holy Roman Empires State religion and the Jews. He then Mandated that the Sun worship of the Pagans would be done as they did it so worship was only to be done on sunday.many people rebelled over this and they had to run for thier lives as he sealed this with his signature anyone caught worshipping elsewise was to be put to death. Where do you think martin Luther learned how to get rid of the Jews.So many believers believe it or not went and lived peacefully with the Arab people untill Mohammad came along and it started again. You can find most of this in britannica encyclopedia under christmas,sunday.constantine,council of Nicea. I am not making this up. You did make a good point about no chapters and such. The scriptures are meant to be sung. This is what is happening when you see a Jew moving back and forth he is usually singing in Hebrew. You see it all the time on TV at the western wall. People need to know what and why they do what they do in worship. The religious leaders do not want you to know. Read thier fate for leading the flock astray. For those who believe in suffering for eternity.. Yahweh Bless...Miles

What I was taught by a professor of humanities is that Constantine was not a confessed Christian until his death bed. However, he did have a certain superstitious belief in the symbol of the cross, and that was why he used it on his shields and uniforms in battle. He was a polytheist, believing in many gods, and he wanted the Christian god to be included in his battles, thus, the cross symbol on his shields, uniforms and things of war.

The wars that have been waged over religion are many and terrible. The "Crusades"... what a bunch of garbage... kill, kill, kill... in the name of God...

And the inquisition... thousands, millions tortured and killed in the name of God...

Yes indeed... those that taught and encouraged these things will be held accountable.

From what I understand of what went on in Germany in WWII... the Jewish people had been asking for refuge in America, and America turned a deaf ear on them all. Except for maybe a few key scientists, etc...

Then, when the soldiers of the Allied army finally entered the German borders, they discovered the concentration camps and mass graves. After this, (as I understand it) America has sent aid to Israel ever since... and helped many of the Jewish people who were in Europe in those days, to return to Israel if they wanted to...

Wars... man has never learned to honor life... even since Cain slew Abel....

Yet, the Bible says the fruit of the Spirit of God are:

"love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance... against such there is no law"
-- Galatians 5:22-23

Funny, but I don't see "war" listed as one of those fruits....


TM

Thats interesting i have never heard that our govt. refused the jews refuge. I always thought they knew about the concentration camps. I believe after the war that the land the Jews were given was from England I believe. I have spread around the internet how much Hipocracy we have shown when Hezzballah took a Israel soldier. If you remember Pres. Bush speech in 2003 right before us invading Iraq. Which the state of the union transcripts are kept on our govt. web sites. He said that we would go after any terrorists no matter where they were and any country harboring terrorists we would make no distinction beteen them. Now Hezzballah is a know terrorist group. If anyone has ever had to live it ,it is Israel. But when the tanks were going into Lebanon all of a sudden Dr. Rice fly's over and the troop movements stop. Apperently our allies do not have the same rights as us. With what we have seen it should not suprise anyone......Blessings....Miles

From my study, this about as accurate as a person can get in a few words.



But they did not just kill Muslims. They killed Jews and other professing Christians who did not have the same view as they did. This should not surprise us, however. It is exactly what Christ foretold in the the first and second seal.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Some believe that this white horse is Christ. It obviously is not. These four horsemen are all plagues--banes on humanity--including the white horse and its rider. This horseman carries a man made weapon of war, not the supernatural sword of Christ's mouth (Rev 19) The white symbolizes purity, but in this case it is a false purity. This is false ministers coming in Christ's name, acting as ministers of light, and deceiving people. He goes forth with the bow, and conquers men with military power. This naturally leads to war--the next seal.

Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

This horse is red, the color of blood, and he makes war on the earth. From the time of Christ we have had religious wars, crusades, inquisitions, and continuing rumors of religious and ethnic wars.

Jesus enumerates these six seals in Mat 24 in the same order as Revelation, but without the symbolism.

first seal: white
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Mat 24:6

second seal: Red
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

third seal: black & balances
and there shall be famines,

fourth seal: Pale green sickness and death
and pestilences, . . .in divers places.

In our world today, we think we are above such religious persecution as has happened in the past, but the truth is that the worst is yet to come. That same system begun by Constantine will rise again. The woman, a church in prophecy, will once again ride the beast, a great empire, exercising enormous military might.

This brings us to the fifth seal---martyrdom of the saints. As Jesus continues to state:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. . . .Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This has been the case from the onset of Christianity. Jesus
promised us this:

Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

People sometimes read over the statement in Revelation 12:9 that says the devil has deceived the whole world. It is so ironic. Professing Christians believe differently, worship God other than the way that the bible says, and yet we all think it is us who is not deceived. No one thinks it could be me!

If you can hear it, the devil has enormous power. He can get professing Christians to kill other Christians in the name of Christ.

You have to hand it to him. The enemy is good at what he does.

Art

Yes, and about the news coverage prior to the Iraqi invasion... I distinctly remember a news report where Bush states (I'll have to paraphrase)... "and after we go in and change the dictatorship in Iraq, we'll have oil prices at $20 a barrel, and it will be great for the American economy..."

I'm so glad oil prices are at $20 a barrel today... NOT... try $100 a barrel, and the highest they have been in all of history...

OPEC knows how to put America in a strangle-hold for fuel, they have known how to do it ever since the 1970s and beyond... and the more Bush tries to manipulate middle eastern countries as an imperialist warlord, the more OPEC is going to be stubborn and refuse to produce their potential capacity of crude oil... thus, the price will continue to skyrocket until America crashes into a recession or worse.

Yes, I think it was from England, and it wasn't just an "American" thing, it was more of an "Allied" thing... giving the Jewish folks the land, and helping them to leave Europe.

I don't remember the date exactly, but shortly after WWII, Israel became a nation again... seems like it was 1948... I'm a bit sketchy on this... but it was a significant event. "The Arab-Israeli War...

Here is some of it on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

I don't know how coincidental this is but... if Hitler had not persecuted the Jewish folks so much,... and the events hadn't transpired where thousands, maybe million of Jews returned to Israel at that time... then I am wondering what impact this had on there being an uprising, and an Arab-Israeli War?

1948 was only 3 years after the end of WWII... plenty of time for thousands to immigrate back to Israel. I've never thought of this before...

BillingsDreamer... great points... wow.....

Yes it was Clinton though that went to bat for the american people when OPEC was going to limit production in 98 or 99. Pres Clinton flew to Saudi Arabia and after thier meeting Saudi announced to OPEC and the world they would increase production if OPEC limited it. And this was at $25 a barrel limit. Less than 10 years ago I bought gas in July of 99 in St Louis for 67 cents a gallon. Bush has not did anything towards meeting with Saudi. Cheney went in nov 06 but this was for another reason. Clinton was no saint. But he tried to really look out for the common man I believe. NAFTA was his biggest mistake which has cost us dearly. Shalom...Miles