Blaise Pascal, a seventeenth century the mathematician, presented the following argument in favor of believing in god (that is widely accepted).

"If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal damnation)."

Is that a sound argument. If so, why? If not, why?

It is certainly a sound argument, however belief cannot be forced. Our minds are each shaped with their own way of determining what is real or not. I cannot force myself to believe in god the same way I cannot force myself to believe in unicorns. (not saying the two are similar, just stating my thought process won't allow for either.)

Hi Bret,

Thanks for being the first to reply and welcome to the forum.

I agree that belief can't be forced. Since childhood (which is a long time in my case) my question has been "How can I believe what I do not believe?"

Regarding the "sound argument": There are at least two major flaws in Pascal's Wager. Perhaps you or others will identify them (and maybe it will instigate uncommon thought patterns).

I do not believe that is a sound argument.

1. Yahweh wants his people to desire him not Just Believe.

2. The final Judgment says that all the others will be judged according to their works. we also know scripture says around a billion people will be in the 1000 year when Yahshua comes back before the final judgment who did not believe.

3. Yahweh says the word is the Bread of Life. Life is in the word.
so its not just believing its putting your faith into action is whats important. Like your job slack off and u might be fired do a great job and be rewarded with a promotion or raise no difference.

I reject that argument.

I'm trying to make sure I understand this and I would have answered this earlier but it was time to go eat.

"If you erroneously believe in god, you lose nothing." That makes it sound like you know he isn't real but you act like he is I guess to fit in and you lose nothing because there is no god.

"Where if you correctly believe in god, you gain everything." This is assuming that god is real then supposedly just he act of correctly believing in him will save your soul and no matter what you do you will go to heaven. This does not account for good or wrong doing. "If you correctly disbelieve in god, you gain nothing." That seems pretty straight forward because it say you know there is know god so you don't go to church or anything like that, you die and that is the end.

"whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything." This is like the earlier part that basically says if you want into heaven all you have to do is believe in god and you soul will be saved. It does not account for doing good or bad things.

Based on what I understood from my interpretation I would say this is false because if god is real then I don't see why it would matter that you believe in him or not. If you are a good person and you do good things that should be all that matters. Vs. if you're an evil prick like Hitler then regardless as to what you believe you're going to burn in the fires of hell. That is provided that the after life is what people think it is with heaven and hell or perhaps a multilevel deal as people in the LDS aka Mormon church believe. I was raised in an LDS family and that's how I know they basically have a multilevel belief system as far as heaven goes. Kind of for hell too. But it's either you go to the bottom or outer darkness.

Of course no one knows what a "god" may or may not require (though many profess to know after reading anonymously written ancient texts or listening to lectures by others who have read the text).

However, it is a common belief among religionists that their favorite "god" requires that any who have been told about "him" MUST believe and worship to avoid eternal damnation.



Although requiring belief and worship seems egocentric and irrational for a supposed omniscient being, many insist that no matter how wonderful a person may be, that isn't enough to get to "heaven."

It is all opinion because no one actually knows

I know that religious people think that way. They say that if you don't believe in god then you go to hell or if you belong to the wrong church you're going to hell. I'm pretty sure I'm just going to hell. lol

There is no assurance that any of us will be "going" anywhere after we die. Some form of "afterlife" is the mainstay of many or most religions -- and is a threat or promise that need not be fulfilled (no way to check for truth and no returning dissatisfied customers).

To me it has no merit because i don't accept the existence of his christian god he worshiped.For that matter i don't accept any god or gods that anyone chooses to worship.

I a��m not sure that anyone knows exactly what Pascal was attempting to accomplish with his wager on God but there has been speculation over the years.

I think it's pretty well accepted that Pascal was using the idea of a wager on the existence of God as a way to test or perhaps broaden his theories on probabilities.

I think it i��s obvious that anyone as intelligent as Pascal was, would not have made the errors in logic that he did with his wager. First of all, he made assumptions about A God, the Judeo-Christian God, but it was well known, even then, that many beliefs about various gods existed.

One of the assumptions Pascal made was that believing in his God could provide an eternal existence. In addition he assumes that such an existence is a positive thing. So he has automatically increased the probability of believing ��correctly��. In other words, he has (illogically) determined that the flip of a coin is not 50/50 but is weighted in favor of God being the correct choice.

There is another error Pascal makes, he assumes that what we have to gain or lose in this game makes it worth playing as we all decide whether to believe or not.

He was quite right to make the game a subjective one as there is no way to know if God is or is not but subjectively. But in HIS subjectivity he assumes that if there is a God and we don'��t believe, we lose the greatest values God gives, truth and happiness.

So he suggests that the choice is easy, because we have only untruth (error) and utter misery to lose by choosing to believe in God.

That makes a lot of sense but for one thing. Betting on God to win based of those assumptions is, itself false, because there is another assumption, quite aside from assumptions of God.

If eternity can be assumed then how we gain it must also be assumed, that it can only be gained by faith and faith depends only on a subjective belief that is not dependent on material truth or a wager.

But Pascal was certainly able to prove some his theory of probabilities with this exercise. He demonstrated, in a round-a-bout way, that even without a belief in God, one can demonstrate truth, as he did by proving this theory, and be happy.

In effect he demonstrated that making a wager on God, would be a losing bet.

As most of you know, Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal that, even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose.

Some assert that since there have been many religions throughout history, and therefore many potential gods (man has worshipped 2800 gods), all of them need to be factored into the wager, in an argument known as the argument from inconsistent revelations. Believing in one god would lead to a high probability of believing in the wrong god, which destroys the mathematical advantage Pascal claimed with his Wager.

Richard Dawkins argues for an "anti-Pascal wager" in his book, The God Delusion. "it could be said that you will lead a better, fuller life if you bet on his not existing, than if you bet on his existing and therefore squander your precious time on worshiping him, sacrificing to him, fighting and dying for him, etc."

(An interesting side note.....Blaise Pascal also wrote)
"Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions."

So the question is what to do ???
1) live with faith (or fake it, act like you believe (which was OK to Pascal)) in one god, like Jesus
2) try to cover all bases and act like you believe in all 2800 known gods
3) do like Dawkins and spend your time doing other things besides worshiping god or gods
4) take the time to write this post instead of being outside enjoying this beautiful evening LOL

@2smileloudly....i'm one who's glad you took the time...
well thought and said....

A lot of that is true in the sense that following the Bible will bring u a happy life. Just as we see 1000's of denominations who are not loving one another. That is a sign of Yahweh's people Their love for one another which if you love one another you will love others also because deep love of Yahweh is in you.

We have to many fakes and fakes are those who claim a religion but does very little with it.. The world of selfishness and the society of me. me . me. as we live in shows.

Like what true minister needs to be a millionaire?

Or people who claim special knowledge given them from the creator profits off this in books and many other ways. If he was freely given this from Yahweh then he can not sell it or it was never from Yahweh.

The scriptures says in may places that the Dead know nothing. Yahshua said let the dead bury the dead.

Their are days of Morning 30. But this is private morning and anyone knows when u lose a loved one you morn for a while. U miss them. So treat them good while they are living show your love and care then.

All the good people in the world their is a judgement. They are judged by their works. It does say no murderer ect will not make into the kingdom and these are the ones who never repented did not care about how they treated people they live in our Me.Me. Me society. When they see someone in need they do not help.

Gen 1:1 - James 4:17

Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit"; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say,"If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that." 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin .
NKJV

These are common good people verses. Help when u see a need and u r able to.. do not wait for someone else to help when its in your power to.


We all know people who will give their shirt off their back to help someone. are these people condemned to hell?

Rev 20:11-15

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
NKJV

See just believing means very little Actions show your faith.always remember this and wether u believe or not its very good advice and Yahweh says he will honor these actions.

The Perfect Law of Yahweh

James 1:21-27

Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
NKJV

Have you ever wondered what kind of a sadist would create a hell to torture something forever? I think that train of thought is a gross misrepresentation of the Bible.

up to the individual...i'm happy not believing in what organized religion says, and i'm not breaking any "eternal damnation" laws...
i'm not so sure the "devil" is such a bad thing either... only thing the devil did wrong was to go against god, not much else... kind of shows that god has an ego problem