One interesting point that only I seem to harp on is that we spent 6.7% of 2010s budget on debt interest.

So lets say everything stays the same over the next 5 year period we will spend atleast $1 trillion on interest.

Moving the tax rates back to the clinton era percentages will only generate $700 billion over 10 years.

But... the debt is really meaningless..

I always find it interesting what are called popular lies because no one I actually know believes these things like I know somebody obviously believes in the toothfairy, easter bunny, and santa claus too but they are not in my inner circle. I guess I watch too much informative news, etc. I do hear people say these things. It's not that I don't believe people say it. But I hear people say all kinds of stupid things that make no sensed all the time. I know there are all kinds of bigots and hate mongers in the world and I have heard them, I just don't know them personally and I don't care to. I think most mental and emotional grown ups know better. I know there are still Archie Bunker types in the world but to me they are just that obscure characters. Nobody I actually know thinks that way.

Eliminate fraud? That would put the gov't and Wall Street, and the bankers who own them, out of business....

Works for me!

Think that's what OWS is all about...hint, hint

we should probably look at both with an equally jaundiced Eye!

Hint, hint, I seriously doubt that!

This thread made me think about what got us into this mess in the first place.

In the early US, a family was probably farming. The corporate mentality has all but put family farms out of business.

The family took care of it's elderly and sick. Few actual bums existed as you usually had to work to eat. The government has changed the system to allow for the government to take care of those who cannot or will not take care of themselves.

If a child was born out of wedlock, the family took care of the child. The number of children born out of wedlock was percentage-wise much less. There were thousands of widows left after WWI so a government program was instigated "Aid to Women with Dependent Children" to care for these war veteran children. Inner city unwed teenage moms realized that they were paid for every child and a huge number of births resulted from those children having sufficient kids to have a big enough check to live. The welfare state was well on it's way.

Social security was a plan to ASSIST in have a regular income for retirement. It was not intended to provide sufficient funds alone. The voting block of the elderly have pushed the idea that SS should cover everything. The welfare state grew.

The Communist party fell into ruin worldwide, but the American citizens who think like communists still exist. They now occupy the far left and push the ideals that the government should be the solution to everything and should control everything. Their arguments are usually less than completely honest.

I think it is time to turn back the clock to what worked before.

Or turn the clock forward with a firm anchor in what 'worked' in the past.