I'm listening to Fresh Air with Terry Gross interviewing Chris Peter Wagner a leader of NAR (The New Apostolic Reformation)

Their goal is to take dominion over government, art, entertainment, and basically the entire world.

They believe in "Casting out demons" in the name of Jesus Christ, and don't think much of anyone who doesn't recognize Jesus as "The Christ"

These people are totally paranoid about demons possessing people.

They also spoke about their efforts to convert Japan to Christianity and away from its religions of Shinto and Buddhism which they see as the work of Satan.

They claim to "respect" all religions and the "freedom of religion", yet at the very same time they renounce all non-Christian religions as being the word of Satan.

This is religious extremism in all it's "Holy Glory".

They're goal is to expand their influence and control over government, education, and the arts.

Sad.

Truly sad.

And then they wonder why people speak out against this overly-arrogant religion.

All the more reason to point out the utter absurdities in these ancient fables. People are trying to make it POLITICAL and FORCE it onto other people through, government, education, and the arts.

This is truly scary.

~~~~~

This guy is also quite confused and inconsistent. He used to believe in "The Rapture" but he no longer believes in this now. Now he believes that through his ministries of the New Apostolic Reformation the world can be entirely converted to "Christianity" and there will be no need for "The Rapture".

He believes that all the Jews (or all of Israel will ultimately convert to Christianity and be "SAVED" as an entire nation).

This all comes to him directly from God, NOT from the Bible.

~~~~~

There used to be a time when they would send people like this to an insane asylum, but today with "religious tolerance" we have to tolerate these people, even though they have totally changed what the religion was all about according to the original Hebrew Gospels, and now they are making up their own stuff and claiming that it came to them directly from God.

Scary.

That's all I can.

The atheists are going to have their hands full dealing with all the religious zealots of the world. I guess the Muslims will continue to move toward their "Jihad" in defense of these "evil Christians" and we'll just move into a world-wide Holy War.

The poor atheists have to put up with all this crap.

Religion, in this "New Apostolic Reformation", is without a doubt threatening to become highly POLITICAL. They are openly stating that they are out to seek DOMINION over Government, Education, and the Arts, in Jesus' name.

Something's gotta give.

These religious zealots are getting out of hand.

And how many "innocent Christians" are going to get sucked into supporting this utter nonsense?

What is Christianity morphing into?

All they are doing is confirming the fact that atheists have been pointing about just how dangerous these arrogant religions can be!

When religion becomes and excuse for a POLITICAL MOVEMENT it's time to speak out against it.

Christianity

versus

Religiousity.

When is that war going to start?

Are Christians going to start standing up against Christians both, arguing that they represent what Jesus truly wants?

This religious fanatic is preaching that he's doing this all in Jesus name to convert everyone to "Accepting Jesus" as their Lord and Savior.

This is the problem. This idea that converting everyone to "Accepting Jesus" as Lord and Savior starts getting out of hand.

Who decides who's actually "accepting" the teachings of Jesus, and who's actually abusing the teachings of Jesus.

As far as I can see, the real difference is precisely that.

Accepting the TEACHINGS of Jesus is one thing.

But when the religion becomes obsessed with demanding that everyone must accept Jesus as their LORD and SAVIOR, it's just the Crusades all over again.

And then they TAKE that to the NEXT LEVEL by proclaiming that THEIR political agenda represents the DESIRES of Jesus!!!

It's just using this whole icon of Jesus as an excuse to proclaim that if you're not on THEIR SIDE and in alignment with THEIR political agenda, then you are rejecting Jesus and therefore rejecting GOD!

This is the PROBLEM with this religion.

It just has this TENDENCY to become a CRUSADE in the name of Jesus to PUSH a specific political agenda based on religious zealots who demands that if you don't accept THEIR INTERPRETATIONS of scriptures, then you are REJECTING JESUS!

It get's totally OUT OF HAND. And these kinds of religious movements tend to take ADVANTAGE of the "Christian Sheep", who merely want to FLOCK behind this baloney under the belief that they are supporting JESUS, when in fact, these religious zealots have nothing at all to do with Jesus.

~~~~~~

In fact, look at what this guy is doing. He's already rejecting the biblical prophesy of "The Rapture" and proclaiming that God is talking to him directly with a whole NEW PLAN and a whole NEW WORLD ORDER based on converting everyone to Christianity.

This is the epitome of religion gone awry.

It's just going to lead to extreme religious tension between all the religions of the world as the other religions start to DEFEND against the "Christian Crusades" in the name of the Christ.

This kind of talk is especially going to feed the flames of Muslim extremists and confirm in their minds that there truly is a "Holy War" in the making.

These people have even proclaimed that the Buddhists, Hindus, and all the other Eastern Religions are the "Word of Satan".

It's CRAZY.

And the atheists are under attack as well.

When it's going to stop?

~~~~~~

I firmly believe that humans evolved from monkeys. In fact, they're still acting like monkeys so they aren't much further evolved than the monkeys, IMHO.

Religious extremism like this is truly nothing more than a blatant display that people still believe in superstitions to the HILT.

Something's gotta give!

So this God cursed the serpent to crawl on its belly and this is why snakes have no legs? And then he turned around and cursed women with painful childbirth as a punishment. Finally he had his son nailed to a pole. And now anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as the Lord of Lord and King of Kings in the name of religious zealots and their interpretations of these stories they must be possessed by a demonic fallen angel or one of his minions.

Let's try to get real here.

~~~~~

What I find so thoroughly disappointing is the very simple fact that I'm living on a rock floating in space with billions of people who actually fall for this stuff.

Is there intelligent life in this universe?

Maybe not. There certainly doesn't appear to be any sign of it on planet Earth.

Actually.....

The battle has already been WON...over 20000

years ago by Jesus Christ on that cross!!!!! <---herbal tea


Some just don't know this yet....

Well, here we go again with more contradictions.

A battle was WON by the crucifixion of Jesus?

This implies that God had to sacrifice his son in order to win some sort of "battle".

Who was God fighting against? Satan?

And if so, then this Satan fellow must be quite the THREAT to God that God felt that he had to take such desperate action in order to "beat" this demonic angel and "win" a battle against him.

~~~~~~~~

People aren't listening to my concerns at all.

I ask people to justify this crucifixion of Jesus by explaining why it was necessarily in order to PAY for our sins. But this just goes in one ear and out the other. Or in the case of the internet I guess it goes in one eye and out the other.

What was the PURPOSE of the "sacrifice" of Jesus on the cross?

In what was would this have been a "sacrifice" for God? What did God LOSE, or give up, by making this "sacrifice". And if he didn't LOSE anything, then how could it be called a "sacrifice"?

There are so many contradictions in these fables, and NO ONE, has ever come up with a sane explanation for any of this. Moreover, not two Christians appear to agree on what had been "sacrificed" or why it was necessarily to make the "sacrifice" and TO WHOM the "sacrifice" was made.

~~~~~~

The "sacrifice" could not have been made TO man

God could not have "sacrificed" his son TO mankind, because mankind never asked God to sacrifice his son. Nor is mankind in any position to be asking this God to make any "sacrifices" TO mankind.

The "sacrifice" could not have been made TO Satan

For God to "sacrifice" his son to Satan would imply that Satan was a real THREAT to God and that God had to do something desperate in order to "beat" this demon.

That's not going to fit in with the idea that God is ALL POWERFUL and Satan is merely a sniffling wimp.

So we can't have God giving into Satan by 'sacrificing' his son to BEAT Satan in some sort of battle.

That idea doesn't work if God is supposed to be ALL POWERFUL.

The "sacrifice" could have only been made TO God himself

That's the only thing that makes any sense in this religion. The original God of Abraham is the God who demands blood sacrifices for the atonement of sin. He's the one who is appeased by blood sacrifices. So in these biblical fables this God could have only "sacrificed" his son unto HIMSELF, to appease himself of the sins of man.

Personally, that sounds really weird and sick to me. I personally dismiss the Old Testament already because it's a fable about a God who is appeased by blood sacrifices just like Zeus and many other fictitious Gods of myths and fables.

Yet this is the BASIS of these blood sacrifices. It is the GOD himself that is supposedly appeased by a blood sacrifice, no one else.

So God would have had to have "sacrificed" his son unto HIMSELF. Not to some satanic demon in order to WIN a Battle. If God had to do that, this would only show that God is vulnerable to Satan and must appease Satan by making a "sacrifice" unto Satan.

~~~~~~~~

So this idea that the crucifixion of Jesus represents "winning" some "battle" doesn't fit in with the overall fables of a God who HIMSELF requires blood sacrifices to pay for sins.

~~~~~~~~~

Moreover, what would God have been "sacrificing"?

Jesus didn't even DIE in a spiritual sense! He supposedly survive the experience and will go on to become the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, and will reign over humanity for ever and ever.

So what did he sacrifice?

The mere PAIN of having been beaten and nailed to a pole?

That would have been the only thing he would have "sacrificed". He most certainly didn't sacrifice his LIFE since he supposedly LIVES FOREVER! He's a spiritual being not a mortal human!

He also RETURNED TO HEAVEN to sit at the right-hand of God. So what was 'sacrificed'. This God didn't sacrifice his son to anyone if his son is sitting right next to him as we speak and will remain alive in spirit for all of eternity.

~~~~~~~~

This whole fable is utter nonsense.

~~~~~~~

Even as a totally fictitious fable it doesn't make any sense.

~~~~~~~

The only thing that makes any sense in this fable concerning the crucifixion of Jesus to PAY for the sins of man would be to return to the Old Testament and realize that this God requires blood sacrifices before he can forgive sins. That would be the only reason that any such sacrifice would be required. It would be required by the God himself to appease himself.

And since Jesus didn't ultimately did in terms of spirit, the sacrifice would not have been DEATH. Jesus did not pay the ultimate price of DEATH because he rose from the dead. Thus the check would have BOUNCED.

You can't just die for three days, and say, "Ok I had enough of this I want to LIVE again".

This is all nonsense.

It's a fable that simply makes no sense at all.

Why people continue to cling to these fables is truly beyond me.

The only thing I can see is that a lot of people have convinced themselves (or have been convinced by others) that either these fables are true, OR atheism must be true. And since most people have an extreme phobia to an atheistic world they reach out to this fable in hopes of a dream of ETERNAL LIFE.

That is the only explanation for this.

Otherwise why would people be so desperate to support such absurd stories?

That's truly a shame. As I have said many times, there are actually spiritual philosophies that make FAR MORE SENSE and are FAR MORE SANE, for anyone who would like to believe in a spiritual essence to reality. The Hebrew fables are nowhere near the only ideas mankind has come up with for a possible spiritual essence of reality. Obviously this was the basis for religions based on Zeus, or Athena, or Apollo, etc, etc, etc.

Humans have been inventing spiritual paradigms since the dawn of man. The Hebrews have no patent on God.

It saddens me deeply that humanity has become so obsessed with religious fables that are based on a God who delves out punishments for every little things, has his own son crucified on a pole, and basically uses negative crude methods to try to SOLVE all his problems.

And the truly ironic thing is that in these fables God's solutions to these problem NEVER WORK anyway. Humans continually fall away from this God and this God loses the vast majority of souls that he creates, or has to drown them out in a great flood.

Even the New Testament has Jesus proclaiming that the path is straight and the gate is narrow to the kingdom of this God and FEW will make it.

Well, if FEW make it, then clearly the vast majority of souls must be LOST.

It's a religious fable about a creator that LOSES the vast majority of souls that he creates.

It's a very sad and non-inspirational religion all the way around if you ask me.

You're chances at qualifying for ETERNAL LIFE are extremely slim even according to Jesus if you can believe these fables.

You probably have a far better chance at winning the lottery on Earth.

And that's supposed to be inspirational?

Even if I believed completely that I was totally "Saved" and qualified for the heaven of the God of these fables, I would still be extremely depressed about the fact that so FEW souls ever make it.

Like our good friend Smiless used to say, "I volunteer to be the last person to enter heaven. I don't even want to be there if anyone else has been left out."

Btw Abra....Jesus died both physically AND spiritually.


Jesus died to pay for our sins so we wouldn't have to.

God is not just a LOVING God but also a JUST God.

A JUST God reguires justice to be carrried out, otherwise He

would not be a JUST God at all....and would just be a wishy

washy God.....

But since God IS JUST, and UNCHANGING ,He cannot suddeny become

UNJUST......which means

a Just God required payment for sins....and that is where

Jesus comes into the picture.



God is also a HOLY God, and holiness and sin just don't mesh.

You see Abra,God couldn't just sweep our sins under the rug

and just forgive us without payment.....even if He wanted

to...


The reason being,

God cannot stand in the face of our sins, without us

perishing in His very presence( we woud be burned to a crisp).

That is why God made a Way..thru sending us His Only Begotten

Son.....

and thru what Jesus did on that cross for us, God's justice

was met;and also, we now could stand in the very

Presence of a Holy God once more, by accepting His free gift

of Grace(already paid for in full ) that God offers us thru

His Son Jesus.


Read the following once more, Abra:


http://xwalk.ca/theway.html

Man in his limited understanding, under

estimates the Power of OUR AWESOME GOD......Who is MORE THAN

ABLE to SAVE to the UTTERMOST !!!

There is no power at all in the fictitious God created by the ancient Hebrews. It's a man-made fable of a truly pathetic man-made God.

MorningSong, there is never any GOOD in having anyone brutally beaten and nailed to a pole.

Once you understand that, will you begin to see the absolute ignorance and stupidity of these male-chauvinistic Hebrew fables.

MorningSong, there are totally JUST and RIGHTEOUS concepts of "God" in the Eastern Mystical spiritual philosophies without the need to have the God lower itself to the in crude and ignorant mentality of a sick demented human societies.

The ancient Hebrews weren't any more intelligent than the modern day Taliban. They were just as ignorant, violent, and male chauvinistic.

You don't need to reduce God to the mentality of the Taliban in an effort to proclaim that God is "just". That's totally uncalled for.

There is NOTHING GOOD about having someone brutally beaten and nailed to a pole.

I'm truly sorry to hear that you support such a violent horrific event as being divinely "just" and "righteous".

How decent honest people can be lead into believing such a foolish thing is truly beyond my ability to comprehend.

And to make matters FAR WORSE, they have a tendency to proclaim that I am the one who is "rejecting God" by not supporting such ignorance and violence.

Or that I'm the one who has no concept of "righteousness".

This is like Freddy's Nightmares. A religious society who proclaims that anyone who doesn't support VIOLENCE as a "righteous" solution to problems is being "ungodly".



It's like living in the Twilight Zone or the Outer Limits.

People supporting horrific violence, prejudice, and religious bigotry as being "Holy" and "Divine". And acting like as if this is the only way a God can be "righteous" and "just".

Nope, sorry, I don't buy such utter nonsense.

~~~~~~

All you're basically saying is that if some guy brutally rapes and mutilates a little girl it's OK. Because if he asks for forgiveness then his act of brutally raping and mutilating the little girl has been PAID FOR because Jesus was nailed to a pole and sent to hell for 3 days.

And therefore "justice prevails".



No, sorry MorningSong. That mentality does NOT work for me.

~~~~~~

Of course, I'm educated in the Eastern Mystical philosophies, and they offer far more SANE ways of dealing with these things. Trust me MorningSong, JUSTICE is definitely maintained and satisfied in the Eastern Mystical philosophies.

If you think it's not, then you simply don't have a good understanding of those spiritual philosophies.

This idea that only the Hebrew fables qualify as a "just" way of dealing with things is utter nonsense. On the contrary there is nothing remotely "just" in the way that the Hebrews deal with injustice in their religious fables.

The gospel didn't make sense to LOTS of people I

have known over the years.

But one day, it suddenly made sense and all became clear...to

each and every single one of them.


Every single one of

them was finally able to "see" and

understand the Gospel message.


Every single One.


God, Indeed, is More than Able.....to Save to the Uttermost !!!

Amen.


(((((((((((((((((Hugs From the Heart For All))))))))))))))))))

And it still doesn't make any sense to anyone today.

No two people on planet Earth are in agreement of what these gospels stand for. Not even two Protestant "Christians" of the same denomination.

Much less the Jews, Muslims, or Catholics.

NOBODY agrees on what these absurd convoluted and highly contradicting stories supposed mean.

Even in the Interview on Fresh Air this religious radical confessed that he is not in agreement with all the other preachers that are even involved with his particular extremist movement.

No two preachers even agree on the details:

NOBODY understands these convoluted fables MorningSong.

~~~~~

There are people who believe that there is no hell for humans.

There are people who demand that the concept of hell for humans is paramount and that the religion can't work without it.

There are people who believe that Jesus and God are the same.

There are people who demand that Jesus was merely the "Son" of God and cannot be seen as being the same as God.

There are people who believe that only individuals can save themselves by appealing to Jesus.

There are people who believe that only Jesus can save individuals by choosing to call them in.

~~~~~~

There are countless different opinions and views on what these scriptures mean.

Some individual may CLAIM to understand them, but clearly these scriptures themselves are WILDLY ambiguous.

If they weren't then we wouldn't have Judaism, Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, and all the myriad of differing sects and opinions within those.

If anything is CRYSTAL CLEAR about these ancient Hebrew fables it is indeed they the fables themselves are extremely UNCLEAR.

Beg to differ with you on this Abra sir.

Within them is still contained a piece of the blueprint for global peace and propesperity for mankind.

Love
Understanding
Forgiveness

All three must be present in any attempt to bring peace to such conflicts as that which embroils the brothers (by Abraham) of the tribes of Israel and the tribes under the Banner of Islam.

No matter the number of times a pen changes the Word of God to better fit the needs of men, The essense of God still remains within the work.

One must sift through it for the Jems of Great Worth.

and leave the sands to trickle back to the earth.

Let me tell you a little secret, there is truth in ALL religions and ALL holy books, but NONE of them not the Bible or any other, are entirely true. Not a single one. That's where the mistake comes from, and where all the other BS comes from along with it.

You are right, there are good things to be found in these books and religions, BUT we must learn to separate those things from the rest, as the rest is made up of lies, falsehoods, and manipulations. Once we learn how to do that, the world will be very different, but only then.

not yet another tired old new apoplectic reformation



unleash the hounds

then why is the percentage of america's and the world's population becoming less christian and more secular every year?

that Guy is living in the 12th Century with his Witchcraft,Sorcery,etc-Beliefs!

Because those people choose to be on the loosing side.

oh yeah that makes total sense! as much sense as the bible does! sure . . . you don't do exactly as I (God) say, you will burn for all eternity, BUT I LOVE YOU!

No......people don't CHOOSE to be on the losing side.

And also,people don't CHOOSE to be Saved either.




Ok....gonna Repeat this again til it hopefully gets thru:

God first DRAWS man unto Him, and then God SAVES man.. it is NOT
.
of man's

own doing or choosing.


EVER!!!

Of course ,We have the choice of saying yes or no

AFTER God woos us and draws us ....but again, we can't even

get saved in the first place,

UNTIL God draws us first....then He saves us.

Only God is the One who Saves...never ourselves!!!!



And Peccy, no.....God does not say to do exactly as He says,or

you will burn for all eternity.


No.

What God says is, "come to me by accepting my Son

Jesus ...so you can spend eternity with me."


See...God ain't interested in our obedience until we have

accepted His son Jesus into our hearts....FIRST !!!!!!


Because that is ONLY what will bring us back into relationship

with God.

(Sin separates us....accepting Jesus brings us back into

restored fellowship and relationship with God once more...as

it was in the beginning ).


That is why God draws us and convicts our hearts , so we

can come back home to Him... where we belong...back in

fellowship and relationship with God.


Let's not under estimate the Power of Almighty God.

Amen.

I would say it'd be better not to underestimate the power of US. We have a lot of it, if we'd but use it. But through religion it is held back from us, and that includes Christianity.

Morningsong, you can say anything you want to try and support your side of things, but it still won't be true in the end sorry to tell you.

We are not sinners, worthless and incapable of anything good on our own, much less disconnected from God because of that. That's all lies of man to control us. We are capable of anything we put our mind to doing, all we have to do is take the steps to make it happen. Powerless we are not.

These Folks play for keeps!
There is no Laissez Faire with those Guys!
They essentially have the same World-View as the Islamists!

There is no reasoning with them,since they haven't arrived at their position through Facts and Reason!
This might explain what they are about!

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/mysticism.html