You are right that it cannot be both.

If you are to describe the attributes of "belief" you cannot say that beliefs are permanent because beliefs do change.

All beliefs CAN CHANGE. This does not mean that all beliefs DO change. Beliefs that last a lifetime simply last a lifetime. That does not mean that they are permanent.

All of this is how I describe my beliefs. Others might insist that hey have some beliefs that they intend to keep all of their lives no matter what. This is a closed mind. They might like to call their beliefs "permanent."

Actually I'm assuming no such thing. One need not be 100% certain to act upon a belief.



Certain enough to act right? Certain enough to not doubt the consequences. Certain enough to not doubt that such consequences would not make for what you like.

Certain enough.



Indeed, absolute certainty is the game of a fool, if and only if, it is taken too far. There are some things that it makes no sense to doubt. If it makes no sense to doubt something, then likewise, it makes no sense to deny certainty. So, even though I did not formerly qualify that statement, it needs it, lest it be self-refuting.



I find that the term "absolute" has little to no meaningful value in this discussion. Certainty is certainty.

As you said, it[belief] comes in degrees.

Creative said:

----->No, I didn't. You're mistaken here. I stated that certainty and/or conviction in belief comes in degrees. That is a big difference. Specifically, certainty/conviction in belief(s) is equal to or greater than the amount of subsequent belief that rests upon the former one(s). <-------


Its all the same to me.

I hold that the attribute of belief is that it is a temporary state.

It does not matter if it is held for a lifetime. For a belief to be permanent, a person must intend not to listen to new information.

A person who states that they believe in Santa Claus and claim that their belief is permanent, they are the ones who have locked the door to their mind. They and only they have the key to open it.

A "permanent" belief is simply temporary belief that is inside of a locked mind and there it remains.

All beliefs, I hold, are still temporary.

You've missed the point. If beliefs can be held for a lifetime, and they are, then the statement "all beliefs are temporary" is false. I've not claimed that all beliefs are permanent, only that they can be. That is supported by the fact that they sometimes are.



The fact is that some do, and some don't.



This is complete speculation. It cannot possibly be justified by reason, sound logic, nor example.



You're making little sense here Jb. If we do not hold that lifelong belief is to be rightfully called permanent belief, then what could "permanent" possibly mean?

You can't claim that a belief is permanent because you cannot be sure that it will last for a lifetime.

You don't know the future.

Therefore it is a temporary belief that just happens to last a lifetime.

You can claim that the attribute of "belief" is that it is temporary.

That is its attribute. All beliefs are temporary because all beliefs can (have the ability to) change.


If a belief lasts a lifetime, that is still temporary. A lifetime is, after all, is temporary.

That's too bad, because they're not the same. Neglecting that necessary distinction will inevitably lead to a lack of understanding regarding the topic.



This fails to make sense on several different grounds. One, it is self-contradictory to simultaneuosly state that belief can be held for a lifetime, but deny that belief can be permanent. Two, there are people who have no intentions upon questioning their own belief. Therefore, the criterion you've given for what constitutes being "permanent belief" can and has been met. Three, there are people who are willing to listen to new information, and yet their belief(s) remain unchanged, because the new information does not warrant such a change for whatever reason.

Your premiss that all beliefs can change rests upon least two presuppositions... 1.that all beliefs can be false, and/or 2.that everyone is capable of changing any and all of their beliefs. That is just simply not the case. Furthermore...

--

It does not follow from the fact that we've been wrong about some things that we've been wrong about everything. True beliefs cannot be proven false, therefore, there is no reason nor need to change them.



Doesn't matter what you call it, nor how you think it works. If permanent beliefs exist - and they do - then all belief cannot be rightfully called temporary. Without permanent, temporary is meaningless/nonexistent.

Oh come on!

You're grasping at straws in order to maintain a belief about belief that makes no sense. Some beliefs do last a lifetime. We need not be able to predict the future in order to know that. All we need to know is a person for their entire life.



Nonsense. It cannot be both, temporary and permanent.



Well sure, we can claim that the earth sits atop a turtle as well. That does not make either statement/claim true, nor justified.

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I must ask, what do you think is necessary for a change in belief? The answer to that question, I'm assuming will show you the error in your statements here. It is not necessarily true that all beliefs can change Jb. That depends upon much more than just the content of the belief itself.



Categorical error.

A human lifetime is "temporary" only in the scheme of all things living. I mean, we eventually die and life goes on. To claim that all belief is "temporary" based upon the fact that our lives come to end is rather trivial, and you're now changing your story. A temporary belief changes within the lifetime, and permanent one does not.

There is no more meaningful use of those two opposing extremes when talking about belief. I'll say nothing else regarding this particular aspect of the discussion. There's been sufficient reason given.

I can see that we are getting nowhere.

I will begin again.

What if I were to say that I believed something that you knew for a fact was not true and I told you that it was not open for debate that my belief was permanent.

What would you then think?

You would probably think that I was being unreasonable and closed minded.

What if I went to my grave refusing to change that belief?

You would probably just think that I was ignorant and stubborn.

If someone wanted to convince me to change my belief and I told them that it would be impossible simply because my belief (the nature of the belief itself) was in fact, permanent and could not be changed by any means.

It can't be changed because it is permanent. Unchangeable.

But that is just not true. All beliefs, no matter how long a person holds them can be changed. That is the attribute of a belief.

Now if you disagree it is because you don't understand what I mean by that or it is probably because you just don't agree.

Fine. I can't be any clearer.

I will describe all beliefs as changeable thus they are temporary. It does not matter if they are ever changed or not. As long as they are changeable they can be designated "temporary" as an attribute.

If you can't accept that, then I will speak for myself and hold that my personal beliefs are regarded by me, as temporary. They are all subject to change.

Put a lid on a jar. Close it up tight.

That lid is temporary because it can be unscrewed and the jar can be opened. It does not matter if you leave that lid on for eternity, as long as that lid can be unscrewed and taken off, it is temporary.

Now melt or weld that lid to the jar so that it cannot be removed, ever. Now it is permanent. Permanently closed. Sealed.

You keep saying that, and I agree. That is why "belief" is always "temporary."

It is temporary because it is changeable.

of course, other than dieing you've experienced those other things so you know them and they require no belief. as far as dieing goes, call me overly hopeful but i do in fact have some doubt that i will die. extremely minute i'll admit but the speed at which medical science has been going i'm not at all sure that life must always end. so once again; belief is not required to know what i've experienced and not appropriate for anything i've not experienced. seems to work for you, not for me.

Whatever, and however we identify the objects of our experience serves as a permanent basis. That is a tree. This is a hand, and here is yet another... these are hands.

Plan on changing these beliefs anytime soon?

How we (humans) chose to verbally "name" any object is irrelevant to the subject of belief. A hand, can be called something else in another language. It can also be called a fist. What we call it is not a "belief." It is simply a label.

A rose by any other name is still what it is. We call it a rose.

All situations in which a human holds a belief are temporary situations, as all humans are temporary.

That is what I said.

Humans hold beliefs. Humans are temporary. Beliefs are temporary.

Beliefs are always changeable, that makes them always temporary.

I try hard to believe...but I can never quite wrap my brain around it....going back to read some more.

loved the dialogue...you are all a joy to read...and I think I believe you are all currently correct in your suppositions.

You will find a lot of stuff in this forum you can't quite wrap your brain around. Don't worry about it.