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Topic: Energy is constant !
no photo
Thu 03/17/11 09:04 PM


Then how is nuclear energy actually created?


I can think of about half a dozen completely different answers to that question. Can you be a little more specific? Do you want to build a bomb? create a Sun? Hold matter together? Make electricity?


I am thinking about making electricity.

wux's photo
Thu 03/17/11 09:04 PM

Setting that aside because if the weight before and after burning were both taken at the same location the would be an accurate comparison of the mass before and after. The next flaw in your statement is you are only weighing the "mass" of the match, the act of combustion, burning, causes some of the mass of the original mass to be converted to energy in the form of heat and light. Some of the mass of the match is also lost when carbon and other chemicals in the solid match combine with oxygen in the air to form gases, such as carbon monoxide and dioxide. Since you can't collect and weigh those parts of the original match you can't accurately determine the amount of mass that was actually converted to energy, some of the mass was not converted to energy it was simply changed through a chemical reaction to a different compound that still has mass.


This contains so many inaccuracies as to what you understood I said versus what I actually said, that I shan`t be going to bother to explain them all.

All I ask you is to please go through my texts in the future with a watchful eye. I am a precise writer. I make mistakes because I am a human, but you found way more mistakes than had existed. You read what you expect to read, and that is fine, but please note that if you re-read my post, you will find that your objections have been pre-emptively taken care of.

I am not a high-school graduate who took a physics course, and I am not a man who relies purely on anecdotal evidence for his understanding of physics and other of his knowledge. I definitely don`t rely on popular media to find my knowledge. I am also ready and willing and the first to admit if I don`t know something, and I am not too ashamed to admit when I am wrong. However, when I say this is how it is, it usually is that way. There is a margin of error, undoubtedly. But it`s not wide. When you find two or more wrong statements in any one of my essays or posts here, it should be an indication to you that maybe you misread what I wrote.

wux's photo
Thu 03/17/11 09:06 PM



Then how is nuclear energy actually created?


I can think of about half a dozen completely different answers to that question. Can you be a little more specific? Do you want to build a bomb? create a Sun? Hold matter together? Make electricity?


I am thinking about making electricity.



I am too scared to look at your profile, jeannibean, but my guess would be you have already created a son, so that may have been a redundant question by our learned and well-liked friend.

Maybe.

paul1217's photo
Thu 03/17/11 09:06 PM
You are correct and I apologize for the inaccuracy. It was your nest statement that confused me on the Mass vs. Weight issue.

"To muddle the issue, the increase is mass is ONLY in relation to objects that are in earth's gravitational field. "

Mass is not a function of Gravity, if you move and object beyond the measurable influence of the earth's gravitational field the mass would not be affected.

I inadvertently combined the two statements, and boy do you grade tough. lol Is there a curve involved?

wux's photo
Thu 03/17/11 09:14 PM

You are correct and I apologize for the inaccuracy. It was your nest statement that confused me on the Mass vs. Weight issue.

"To muddle the issue, the increase is mass is ONLY in relation to objects that are in earth's gravitational field. "

Mass is not a function of Gravity, if you move and object beyond the measurable influence of the earth's gravitational field the mass would not be affected.

I inadvertently combined the two statements, and boy do you grade tough. lol Is there a curve involved?


Lol, I am fat, yes, and my balls are curved sometimes.

While what you said above is true, the fact remains that the combined mass as could be measured, by some instrument, of earth and the ball I lifted, remains constant, the ball and the Earth still gain mass, as their energy increases.

There is a loss of mass in my muscles, not biological, but physical, because they convert energy to lift the ball into work. The work becomes the energy of the ball and the earth, as they get distanced by a foot.

I was wrong. You are right. The balance is gained by the loss of mass in the object that performs the work to elevate en energy level.

This was well done. You get upgraded to a B+, but don`t tell the principal, please, because his principle is never to Bell the students.

Or was that never to ball the students? Darn it, I can`t remember.

I guess I just have to do both, and see which he bawls me out for.

The physicist: the forever experimenter.

paul1217's photo
Thu 03/17/11 09:34 PM


You are correct and I apologize for the inaccuracy. It was your nest statement that confused me on the Mass vs. Weight issue.

"To muddle the issue, the increase is mass is ONLY in relation to objects that are in earth's gravitational field. "

Mass is not a function of Gravity, if you move and object beyond the measurable influence of the earth's gravitational field the mass would not be affected.

I inadvertently combined the two statements, and boy do you grade tough. lol Is there a curve involved?


Lol, I am fat, yes, and my balls are curved sometimes.

While what you said above is true, the fact remains that the combined mass as could be measured, by some instrument, of earth and the ball I lifted, remains constant, the ball and the Earth still gain mass, as their energy increases.

There is a loss of mass in my muscles, not biological, but physical, because they convert energy to lift the ball into work. The work becomes the energy of the ball and the earth, as they get distanced by a foot.

I was wrong. You are right. The balance is gained by the loss of mass in the object that performs the work to elevate en energy level.

This was well done. You get upgraded to a B+, but don`t tell the principal, please, because his principle is never to Bell the students.

Or was that never to ball the students? Darn it, I can`t remember.

I guess I just have to do both, and see which he bawls me out for.

The physicist: the forever experimenter.


I had not read your previous response before I wrote this one and I must again apologize for coming across like I was pointing out mistakes. I should have phrased it differently. I enjoy the discussions in here because most people look at me like I'm out of my mind if I try to discuss Physics in the real world. I find the discussions interesting.

I am in no way an expert of any kind. I did take a high school physics course and Physics 101 in college, but that's as far as I went. I am just interested in intelligent conversation on topics that interest me. With the open discussion comes knowledge and the exchange of ideas.

metalwing's photo
Thu 03/17/11 09:57 PM



Then how is nuclear energy actually created?


I can think of about half a dozen completely different answers to that question. Can you be a little more specific? Do you want to build a bomb? create a Sun? Hold matter together? Make electricity?


I am thinking about making electricity.


This explanation is a bit simplified.

An Isotope is an atom that has a different number of neutrons than protons. Usually, if the protons and neutrons are equal the atom is stable and tends to stay that way. Isotopes may not be stable as they tend to try to reach equality with the protons. If you add the number of protons and neutrons together, you get the atomic weight. An isotope is radioactive if it tends to shed neutrons or sometimes larger chunks.

Uranium can be split if hit with a fast moving neutron. When it splits it produces a lot of heat and two more loose neutrons. Those two neutrons split two more uranium atoms which then split four more which then split eight more creating the classic chain reaction and a lot of heat.

The uranium is usually formed into pellets which are then placed in some type of metal can or rod and sealed. The heat from the uranium heats the metal can or rod which is sitting in a water bath. The water boils and makes steam. The steam is used to turn a turbine in the same way as a natural gas or coal fired plant makes steam to turn turbines to make electricity.

metalwing's photo
Thu 03/17/11 11:20 PM
Edited by metalwing on Thu 03/17/11 11:24 PM


The scientific principal you are actually dealing with is ...


"There is no free lunch".

The closest thing to free energy would probably be geothermal. The Earth produces heat from radioactivity which then turns into heat which is eventually radiated out into space.

Man's use of geothermal energy just reduces the amount of heat directly radiated into space by a very small percentage but he makes up for it in oh so many ways. Geothermal use has almost no effect on climate or the planet in general if done properly.


Most of the heat produced by the Earth is not actually produced, and very little of it is due to radioactivity. The heat stored in the Earths core is energy left over from the formation of the planet. This heat is stored, below about 25 miles of the Earths crust, in the form of molten rock known as magma. That heat, 1000's of degrees, is pretty well insulated from us by the Earths crust. The technology to drill deep enough into the crust, in most areas, to utilize that heat on any commercial scale is not cost effective at present.

While geothermal energy is useful in some areas, it is a common misconception that geothermal energy takes heat from the ground and that heat is directly used to heat buildings. While this is possible in certain areas that are usually volcanically active, for most areas geothermal energy is only a supplement.

In most areas the temperature below the "frost line", usually not more than 4-5 feet below grade, is fairly constant year round. That temperature with slight regional variations is about 54 degrees Farenheit. In most areas that is the temperature that the geothermal wells are designed to collect and transport to the surface for use to heat buildings. Heat pumps are then used to raise the temperature to a point that it can be used to provide warmth.

As a Certified Well Driller, I am familiar with the installation of the geothermal wells and the subsurface temperatures. I am not completely versed in the operation of Heat pumps other than the fact that most of them are electrically operated and they require a minimum input temperature somewhere around 45 to 55 degrees to operate efficiently. For this reason most of the geothermal systems, residential and small commercial scale, are only financially viable alternatives in areas where the electrical costs are not prohibitive.

Geothermal can be also be used for cooling applications and it's efficiency for cooling is a lot better than its efficiensy as a heat source.


If you pay attention to what I wrote, I said the "Earth produces heat from radioactivity". Some of the rest of the heat in the Earth's core was already there from Earth's formation. It is not produced. I, in no way, stated or implied, that the totality of heat in the Earth was produced by radioactivity. Neither did I state or imply that the vast heat stored in the Earth was usable as geothermal energy.

However, that said, your statements about the source of Earth's interior heat are completely false as the vast majority (about 90%) is due to radioactivity.

Here is a link for the sources of the Earth's interior heat which includes phase change of the Iron core and internal friction.

http://www.physorg.com/news62952904.html

My point was that the Earth PRODUCES a VAST amount of internal heat from radioactivity (a topic of this thread) and a small percentage of it can be tapped for mankind's use with no ill effects.

Your statements about the efficiency of heat pumps is also incorrect. The efficiency is driven by the difference in temperature and minor variations in unit construction. They are usually less efficient in one season or another depending upon the temperature extremes of that area. It has been my experience that the majority of heat source water deposits have a varied temperature of about 35F to 80F not 54 as those would be a small area of available sites. The temperature variation also depends upon ground loop or well water based systems.



I have designed several ground source heat pump systems from scratch as a consultant (as a favor) but my actual fields of expertise are structures and material science with advanced study in physics and earth science.

With all due respect, your post is inaccurate and obnoxious. If you want to teach, teach, but get your facts straight.

no photo
Fri 03/18/11 01:59 PM

Then how is nuclear energy actually created?
by splitting atoms

AdventureBegins's photo
Fri 03/18/11 06:24 PM
Forgive my lack of understanding...

It would seem to me that since radioactive elements such as urainium emit ionizing radiation...

Why split them and create such problems as 'meltdown'...

Why not just 'surround' them with a containment vessel that contains an easily 'ionized' gas...

and 'leach' the 'electricity' from the gas.

Might not get as much 'energy' from a 'pound' of urainium but it would be a heck of a lot 'safer'.

metalwing's photo
Fri 03/18/11 07:23 PM

Forgive my lack of understanding...

It would seem to me that since radioactive elements such as urainium emit ionizing radiation...

Why split them and create such problems as 'meltdown'...

Why not just 'surround' them with a containment vessel that contains an easily 'ionized' gas...

and 'leach' the 'electricity' from the gas.

Might not get as much 'energy' from a 'pound' of urainium but it would be a heck of a lot 'safer'.


Isotope batteries have been around awhile. They only put out a small amount of electricity but can do so for years. If you sent them up to put out a lot of electricity you would have the problem of heat.

Minuscule amounts of radioactive elements could safely power handheld electrical devices for months or even years, according to new research from the University of Missouri.

Such electronics could help to eliminate mildly radioactive substances while providing cheap and reliable power.

WATCH VIDEO: Energy from a floating nuclear donut? It might just happen if MIT researchers have their way.

"This is not a nuclear reaction. Nothing will explode; there won't be a mushroom cloud on your property," said Jae Kwon, a professor at the University of Missouri developing radioactive batteries.

"We are using the radiation coming from the material and turning that into electricity," he added.

The material in question is sulfur 35, an energy packed isotope of an element most people associate with the smell, and color, of rotten eggs. In nature, sulfur 35 forms when cosmic rays break apart argon in the upper atmosphere.

Within a battery, sulfur 35 spits out mildly radioactive electrons as it decays. To harvest those electrons and convert them into electricity, Kwon surrounds the sulfur with selenium, a liquid semiconductor. The selenium traps the electrons trying to escape, channeling them into a source of electricity.

barun1959's photo
Sat 03/19/11 02:53 AM


Then how is nuclear energy actually created?
by splitting atoms

Fission, the splitting of atom. Your presence gives some "extra energy" in this thread.:thumbsup:

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